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Shrouger wrote:I think so. But yours focused on the Orks themselves, while mine system used snotlings and rudimentary fungus (a bit lower on the food chain...) to recycle the resources of planet.

Either way, I'm glad we can agree.

I suppose the upkeep cost vs. the return product would be more efficient if kept on a snotling or lower level. You could house a couple hundred snotlings in the space needed to house 50 Ork boyz. Snotlings eat less, are more easily controllable, and less likely to some how manage an escape. Then, when needed, the snotlings could be allowed to grow full sized into Orkanid shock troops.

I think snotlings are an entirely different subspecies... Perhaps the ork spores themselves, but not the snotlings. It would be extremely useful though; the biomass suplements from the fungus beds could probably feed untold billions of 'Nids.

Shrouger wrote:I think snotlings are an entirely different subspecies... Perhaps the ork spores themselves, but not the snotlings. It would be extremely useful though; the biomass suplements from the fungus beds could probably feed untold billions of 'Nids.

While Snotlings are a different subspecies, Spores from any Ork or Sontling can become any Ork subspecies even Gretchin.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but the Orks would win for sure. You forget that the tyranids would threaten the orks very survival, unlike 'umies or chaos the tyranids just want to leave the galaxy bare and move on. The orks survival instinct would become one with their urge to fight also Gork and Mork would surely tell the boyz, just this once mind, to quit squabblin' and bash the dem bugs.

I'm afraid I have to clarify sumfing with all yous bugboys.

According to da new dex, da orks never lose. If they win, they win. If they all die then they died fightin so it doesnt count. If they run away they dont lose either cause they can always come back for another go.

See?
Good.

According to da new dex, da orks never lose. If they win, they win. If they all die then they died fightin so it doesnt count. If they run away they dont lose either cause they can always come back for another go.

See?
Good.

Ork logic neva fails.

Though I can't even begin to imagine the destruction the 'Nids would wreak if they did the smart thing and tried to use the Ork genome constructively...

Shrouger wrote:

According to da new dex, da orks never lose. If they win, they win. If they all die then they died fightin so it doesnt count. If they run away they dont lose either cause they can always come back for another go.

See?
Good.

Ork logic neva fails.

Though I can't even begin to imagine the destruction the 'Nids would wreak if they did the smart thing and tried to use the Ork genome constructively...

The ability to loot? There arent much things on the tabletop much better than the 'nids. I had 8 genestealers (pre -broodlord) take out a Terminator squad on the charge and then take out a group of 32 boyz. (also I had the charge advantage). The Orks and 'nids are very close. I dont think they need to use the ork genome to much. (Also I completely understand theres the luck of the dice with any game played in warhammer.)

However fluff-wise, the tyranid will gain the orks genome from fighting them. So imagine a carnifex that gets bigger than it already is as it kills stuff........

They have the Ork genome. They've played it down in this edition of the codex, but in earlier codices, the Biovore is what they made out of what they got from Orks.

Which tells me there's nothing they actually want from Orks in their melee shock troops. They honestly don't need it either. They have Genestealers.

Psyker_9er wrote:

Klawz wrote:Many people forget that the biomass the Orks use for growing themselves comes from the Earth, otherwise they would violate the Conservation of Matter and Energy. Because of that, you can't grow Orkks on a ship, because they would sap biomass from the Nids.

Conservation of Matter and Energy? Are you talking about the TV show Full Metal Alchemist?

No, I'm talking about the Scientific Law.

They have the Ork genome. They've played it down in this edition of the codex, but in earlier codices, the Biovore is what they made out of what they got from Orks.

Which tells me there's nothing they actually want from Orks in their melee shock troops. They honestly don't need it either. They have Genestealers.

In that case, the Hive Mind is a sedulous snob. We're not just discussing Orkl boyz here; the Orkoid genome is far more complex. Just consider the options for near-limitless biomass, not to mention the potential that Orks have as cheap, mid-strength infantry. Further, forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe that 'Stealer cults are meant to destabalize planetary government; the purebred forms tend not to be deployed on a scale even remotely comparable to a "standard" Ork tribe

Shrouger wrote:

They have the Ork genome. They've played it down in this edition of the codex, but in earlier codices, the Biovore is what they made out of what they got from Orks.

Which tells me there's nothing they actually want from Orks in their melee shock troops. They honestly don't need it either. They have Genestealers.

In that case, the Hive Mind is a sedulous snob. We're not just discussing Orkl boyz here; the Orkoid genome is far more complex. Just consider the options for near-limitless biomass, not to mention the potential that Orks have as cheap, mid-strength infantry.

But Tyranids don't actually use the races they absorb, only the biomass. So they wouldn't use Orks as a cheap, mid-strength infantry. They also have their own already that has been working for a long time, the Gaunt. Which can be altered to be a ranged creature, a melee crature, fly, run faster... They don't need another type of infantry.

As to using spores, the Hive Fleets already have reproducing creatures. Hormagaunts. Hormagaunts will lay eggs, so that there's a second wave shortly after the first that laid the eggs. I'd say the Tyranids saw the reproducing spres, and didn't want to make use of it - they don't like anything not 'normal'. They won't reabsorb Ymgarl genestealers, for example, because their mutations oculd affect other creatures once reabsorbed.

Shrouger wrote:Further, forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe that 'Stealer cults are meant to destabalize planetary government; the purebred forms tend not to be deployed on a scale even remotely comparable to a "standard" Ork tribe

Well, you're kind of wrong. Genestealer Cults are, indeed, meant to destabilize a planets government before a hive fleet hits. That's not their only function. Genestealers are the heavy hitting melee shock troop of the swarms. They're incredibly strong and fast, and highly intelligent. They operate, even in a warzone, free of the hive mind to do their thing. Broodlords are even more powerful. They're fielded in sufficiently large numbers. The size of an Ork tribe? Maybe not, but not every Ork in a tribe does one thing, and Genestealers are highly specialized creatures. They have other creatures for ranged support and to make up numbers.

Da boyz will still win with their looted bio-titans and looted carnifexes.

Forgive my fanboyism, but i bet that the orks would win.

Why? it was mentioned already.

First, they throw spores everytime, dead or alive. Those spores grow fast without the need of any biomass or resource.

Second, they can loot everything. You could say "Nuhuh! You can't loot anything from the tiranids because all their technology is biological!", but orks have the WAAHG, and if they believe they can do something, they will! An extreme uncanon and probably wrong example, if a bunch of orks believe that one of them would grow wings and fly, he will.

Third, the WAAHG!. It makes them grow bigger, stronger and smarter. It load their weapons if they believe it has bullets. It makes them inmune to any chaos influence. Is like freaking spyral power of Teggen Toppa Gurren Laggan.

Fourth, they have the best gods, gork and mork. And they are big enouth to beat Khorne in a brawl in the warp.

Also, ork genestealers can't live long enouth, they are instantly detected by the healty ones and purged from the warband.

And thats what i think. Forgive my fanboyism.

As to using spores, the Hive Fleets already have reproducing creatures. Hormagaunts. Hormagaunts will lay eggs, so that there's a second wave shortly after the first that laid the eggs. I'd say the Tyranids saw the reproducing spres, and didn't want to make use of it - they don't like anything not 'normal'. They won't reabsorb Ymgarl genestealers, for example, because their mutations oculd affect other creatures once reabsorbed.

This is not a matter of reproduction; the fungus that intially springs up from Orkoid spores would constitute a near unlimited supply of biomass. So long as the fungi has some kind of atmosphere (it need not be terribly dense), they can grow to cover the entire planet if properly nurtured; I understand that this might conflict with the entire concept of the Tyranids, but if they are as adaptive as the canon claims, they should at least make use of this on some level. If they cannot make use of an adaptation such as this, they have become an overspecialized evolutionary dead-end. Certainly, they can try to continue devouring worlds, but at some point this practice will no longer be sustainable (i.e, they will run out of easily accessible galaxies and face an extremely long, perhaps fatal journey across "dead space"); using ork spore as a suplement of some kind would be the most logical course.

Why not both?

Please do not misenterpret my arguments; I still support the Waaagh!

I was just outlining some opportunities for the Tyranids to make use of the Ork genome.

orks what would happen if the ork spores landed on a hive ship and overran it ??? Then the whole race would be doomed as the orks could ovrerun the rest of the hive fleet and have a hive fleet as well as a normal WAAAAGH to combat the nid's

Im not so sure one hive ship effects the Tyranid race that much.

Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:orks what would happen if the ork spores landed on a hive ship and overran it ??? Then the whole race would be doomed as the orks could ovrerun the rest of the hive fleet and have a hive fleet as well as a normal WAAAAGH to combat the nid's

The Hive Ships are living creatures connected to the Hive Mind as well. As soon as the hive Mind discovered a potential threat from an infested ship, they'd simply destroy it.

Now, get a few Genestealer broods on those Ork ships...

Shrouger wrote:

As to using spores, the Hive Fleets already have reproducing creatures. Hormagaunts. Hormagaunts will lay eggs, so that there's a second wave shortly after the first that laid the eggs. I'd say the Tyranids saw the reproducing spres, and didn't want to make use of it - they don't like anything not 'normal'. They won't reabsorb Ymgarl genestealers, for example, because their mutations oculd affect other creatures once reabsorbed.

This is not a matter of reproduction; the fungus that intially springs up from Orkoid spores would constitute a near unlimited supply of biomass. So long as the fungi has some kind of atmosphere (it need not be terribly dense), they can grow to cover the entire planet if properly nurtured; I understand that this might conflict with the entire concept of the Tyranids, but if they are as adaptive as the canon claims, they should at least make use of this on some level. If they cannot make use of an adaptation such as this, they have become an overspecialized evolutionary dead-end. Certainly, they can try to continue devouring worlds, but at some point this practice will no longer be sustainable (i.e, they will run out of easily accessible galaxies and face an extremely long, perhaps fatal journey across "dead space"); using ork spore as a suplement of some kind would be the most logical course.

What comes from an Ork spore is a pretty tiny fraction of what Tyranids get from a planet. There was a writeup on GW's website about the quantities that get havested from a planet (that was warseer, the link is dead to GWs site).

Lord Commanders,

I bring you grave news. The threat we face may be far more vast than we ever dreamed. Technical analysis of Dalki-Prime pre Tyranid consumption survey information when cross-referenced with the data from Dalki-Mons post Tyranid consumption shows some startling information.

Dalki-Prime was an agricultural planet with a diameter of 12,500 km, slightly smaller than Terra. The Tyranid fleet was able to remove the following quantities of material from the planet within 100 days [Terran Standard].

1.55 billion cubic km water, one cubic km of sea water weighs over 1 trillion kg.
8.67 billion cubic km gases, at STP theoretically they could reduce this to 1 tenth its volume by super cooling and pressure (3 atm, and 0ºC).
72 million cubic km soil and minerals, weighing 1.4 trillion kg per cubic km.

It is nearly inconceivable how they were able to accomplish this in such a short time, much less explain where the materials were taken, as the typical hive fleets encountered historically are not capable of transporting even a fraction of this volume. Over 10 billion cubic kilometres of material was removed from the planet. This would require untold millions of ships and is far beyond the scope of the entire Adeptus Mechanicus to accomplish given a decade. Most astonishing is that this is insufficient to sate their hunger and they strike again and again, often within months. We must somehow determine if these fleets are somehow sending material back to their home systems for it seems obvious that they are not using all the materials.

Detailed analysis of devastated worlds have yielded the following data in conjunction with orbital surveillance satellite and data recordings which were recovered.

Magos Biologis Salk,
Draco Legion Biomedical Research station, New Hallefuss

That is a completely ridiculous level of material taken form a single planet. I don't think Ork spores would really make them want to bother.

-Loki- wrote: Now, get a few Genestealer broods on those Ork ships...

genstealers have been aboard ork ships before. in the ork codex it quotes a runtherd about warp travel and says when somthing else is on board like "stealers" its good entertainment

That is a completely ridiculous level of material taken form a single planet. I don't think Ork spores would really make them want to bother.

If they don't, they could find themselves in a protracted campaign without a ready supply of biomass. It just seems a bit odd for the Hive Mind not to exploit every edge it can get. Perhaps why the Orks will win this war; they may be cocky and belligerent, but they are also willing to experiment with new ideas. I certainly see what you are saying, Loki, but this just proving to me all the more that unless the Tyranids start adapting to face a numerically similar enemy (ie Orks), they will find conquest difficult, if not impossible.

The Orks, meanwhile, will continue to innovate in their own fashion, spurred by the vast mountains of loot to be scavenged from Imperium Worlds (the Orks being closer to most of these than the 'Nids, they will likely secure them before either side commits to a real campaign against the other). If burna-boyz can expect to go into battle armed with plasma flamers, or if Flash gitz can start carting around looted thunder-fire cannons, I think the Orks have a fair chance of victory.

Shrouger wrote:If they don't, they could find themselves in a protracted campaign without a ready supply of biomass. It just seems a bit odd for the Hive Mind not to exploit every edge it can get. Perhaps why the Orks will win this war; they may be cocky and belligerent, but they are also willing to experiment with new ideas. I certainly see what you are saying, Loki, but this just proving to me all the more that unless the Tyranids start adapting to face a numerically similar enemy (ie Orks), they will find conquest difficult, if not impossible.

The Orks, meanwhile, will continue to innovate in their own fashion, spurred by the vast mountains of loot to be scavenged from Imperium Worlds (the Orks being closer to most of these than the 'Nids, they will likely secure them before either side commits to a real campaign against the other). If burna-boyz can expect to go into battle armed with plasma flamers, or if Flash gitz can start carting around looted thunder-fire cannons, I think the Orks have a fair chance of victory.

So because they don't take this one thing, their method of reproduction, they're simply not adapting at all?

The Doom of Malantai. The Parasite of Mortrex. The Deathleaper. Just three completely new life forms they've put in the new codex. The Parasite implants ripper larvae into hosts (and is described fluffwise as creating enough rippers - only rippers - to overrun a planet. The Doom of Malantai was purpose designed to wipe out a Craftworld, which it did. The Deathleaper was created as a terror weapon to demorilize a planet. The Tyranids adapt and create plenty.

Then there's the creatures that actually have had their mutations accepted by the hive fleets on a massive scale. Old One Eyes regenerative ability was accepted as a viable mutation for all larger Tyranids. The Red Terror was quite clearly a test creature for a Mawloc. One off Tyranids and mutations are being created all the time.

They simply don't need the reproductive spores of the Orks. Especially when you look at the quantities of material removed from a single planet. There's far more lightly defended planets in the galaxy for them to stockpile biomass from while also attacking defended planets. The galaxy isn't, at least going by supplied maps from GW, as populated as you think. When they don't even use a fraction of what they take from a planet, it's pretty clear there's large hive fleets stockpiling all of this floating in the void.

It just seems strange. Why not use this renewable source of biomass to secure their chances of survival? At some point, the 'Nids will run out; we don't know how many galaxies they will purge first, but it will happen.

The Orks, on the other hand, jump at every opportunity, promising or not, to improve their weapons. A Mek will innovate several new technologies a month with the right materials; because of their willingness/ability to experiment, the Orks will be able to tip the scales in their favor.

Yes tyranids will eventually run out of biomass and be forced to do what? move to another universe?
Also orks were desighned to be the ultimate survivor race and tyranids are sort of the ultimate offensive race so i think it would be a war long enough to keeo the nids fed for a long time.
Btw even though tyranids can evolve ork tech can evolve aswell, who knows maybe they can adapt quicker than the nids

Shrouger wrote:It just seems strange. Why not use this renewable source of biomass to secure their chances of survival? At some point, the 'Nids will run out; we don't know how many galaxies they will purge first, but it will happen.

I see what you're getting at, but considering the size of the universe, they could be at it until the end of time and still not consume the entire universe. Just in the time it takes for them to cross the galactic void, other galaxies would form anyway, considering corssing that void at sublight speed would take hundreds of millions of years. At least.

Shrouger wrote:The Orks, on the other hand, jump at every opportunity, promising or not, to improve their weapons. A Mek will innovate several new technologies a month with the right materials; because of their willingness/ability to experiment, the Orks will be able to tip the scales in their favor.

Again, you're assuming they simply stagnate because they do not take this one trait from the Orks. A trait they do not need. They're constantly making new creatures, and basically trialling them for bass production.

Tyranids have taken slave races before, they where called Zoats, so it is not too far of a stretch to pretend they could do it again if given a worthy species. Orks are worthy of this servitude IF the Hive Mind can trick, or convince, or genestealer cult them some how.

But back to the topic about the actual 'war' between Nids and Orks: I still say Nids would win

Yes, Orks do have the ability to rapidly change technology, and that is a very strong point in the Ork's favor. However, this very same fact is also very limiting to the Ork side of things and here is why:

No matter what technology they develop it will only fall into one out of a few categories.
1) a new weapon
2) a new vehicle
3) or new armor
And no matter what category of tech they improve, it will still be an Ork Boy in the driver seat.

Tyranids can not only make the same sort of stuff, but that is in addition too being able to make a whole completely new species of Tyranid all together... So Orks can only change what they use during the war, while Tyranids can completely change the whole dynamics of the war.

An Ork may get bigger, and stronger, and have more metal on his body than a tank... But it is still an Ork.
Tyranids can counter and/or reproduce a biotech equivalent to anything the Orks can make... But an Ork is still an Ork.
Tyranids can completely change every aspect of themselves and create whole new life forms we have never seen before... Orks though, will always be Orks.

Psyker_9er wrote:Tyranids have taken slave races before, they where called Zoats, so it is not too far of a stretch to pretend they could do it again if given a worthy species. Orks are worthy of this servitude IF the Hive Mind can trick, or convince, or genestealer cult them some how.

Zoats were retconned out of the Tyranid fluff. The closest to them is Hive Fleet Colossus. It was a fleet of Conch shaped ships grown from stone, with centaur-like Tyranids that communicated telepathically. They tried to convince everyone they came into contact with that they were a slave race that escaped their captors, then waged a full scale war with everyone they met. This is another peice in the 'Tyranids are running from something' theory. However, they haven't actually been named 'Zoats'. And if GW were interested in keeping the name alive, they'd surely have used the name Zoat in that fluff.

-Loki- wrote:Zoats were retconned out of the Tyranid fluff. The closest to them is Hive Fleet Colossus. It was a fleet of Conch shaped ships grown from stone, with centaur-like Tyranids that communicated telepathically. They tried to convince everyone they came into contact with that they were a slave race that escaped their captors, then waged a full scale war with everyone they met. This is another peice in the 'Tyranids are running from something' theory. However, they haven't actually been named 'Zoats'. And if GW were interested in keeping the name alive, they'd surely have used the name Zoat in that fluff.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Zoat

A lot of the GW fluff gets changed up, and it is a pet peeve of mine, but what is a fan boy to do? I'm pretty sure the new codex makes no mention of Zoats at all any more. Sigh...

I was merely saying though that the concept of a slave race of Orks is not too crazy of an idea. I'm not saying: "this is what GW is going to do", instead I was actually trying to give complements to the Orks in a way. As a Genestealer Cult Magus myself, I think the Orks are a fine species worthy of the Hive Mind's consideration. But I can only obey the will of the Great Devourer

The point you are trying to make Loki, I also agree with. Tyranids are just fine with out Orks or Ork DNA. Tyranids can win with out any of it, just good ol'fashioned Tyranid evolution that has worked time and time again, and will continue to work long after the Orks have been vanquished.

I was merely making meager suggestions, like a humble servant, just in case the Hive Mind is also a subscriber and reader of DakkaDakka.

Tyranids used to take slave races. They don't anymore, since the entire race got revised with 3rd edition. So, in the current fluff, a slave race wouldn't happen, the Tyranids would just absorb them and use the biomass for something else.

Shrouger wrote:the Dark Eldar will hide in Commorragh

Suckas!

But seriously, I'm rooting for the Orks