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An Ork boy may remain just that, but said Ork boy need not be equipped with the simple sluggas, choppas and light armor of the current edition.

Just to clarify, we are using the fluff to support us, correct? If so, my rant can continue...

Orks, among other things, are tremendously strong. This fact was casually omitted in the new edition when they were given the strength of mere Guardsmen (S3, for those not familiar), but the codex describes them as being able to easily rip a man in half, something even a Catachan might have some difficulty doing. Combine this with mass distribution of augmetics from looted AM shrines, and your standard Ork Boy is suddenly significantly more capable. And assuming most of the Orks in the galaxy are flocking toward the Tyranid hive fleets, they should have no problem maintaining a roughly 1:1 ratio with the Tyranids.

Now that the Boyz have been given their due, on to vehicles. The Orks could probably field thousands of looted tanks during a single campaign, and given the materials available to the Meks, we can expect far more than a simple Leman Russ. We can probably reasonably expect the Orks to field looted Baneblades (with various Orky modifications) and Land Raiders by the dozen, not to mention the countless Gargants they could produce with the facilities found on a Forge World.

As far as adaptation goes, there are a few points to make for the Ork;
1. There are certain things Tyranid bio-forms can never truly resist (colliding with stars, for example ).
2. Given the insane creativity of Meks with near-limitless resources, we can expect the Orks to field new weapons at least as quickly as the Tyranids can adapt. Basically any weapon that can be built by the Orks will be built at some point. I believe I made a list of possible technologies at some point before, but I will make another to illustrate the point;

1. Turret Mounted shokk attack guns= more deff
2. Las-sighted shootas (A lasgun attached to a Shoota... very Orky)= more accuracy
3. Mass distribution of Bionics (mentioned previously in this post)= more cybork bodies= more invulnerable saves
4. Assault Cannons for Gitz/Lootas= more dakka

This list took me less than a minute to compile. Now consider an inspired Mek with mountains of spare parts at his disposal...

yes orks FTW and if they could make suicide units with warp drives they would be done with the tyranids in record time !!!

the idea for this comes from the battle for macragge and a ship detonating its warp drive to destroy the hive fleet soooooo a few of dem an dere done wiv'

Somehow, the orks have become the smartest race in the 40k universe.

Even if a common great enemy emerged, there will be thousands of Waaaaaggggh prophets who will try to lead. Bug are unified. Single entity with single goal. There is no fluff that suggest orks wouldnt fight one another for the chance to lead the Waaaagghh, even if a great enemy emerged.

Plus, orks are interlocked with war against eldar and tau. They would have to deal with other xenos first before being able to deal with nids with their full attention.

to recap:

1. Orks-not smart.
2. Orks-not unified.
3. Orks-unable to give undivided attention to nids.

1. Orks-not smart.
2. Orks-not unified.
3. Orks-unable to give undivided attention to nids.

This is an extremely unfair stereotype, and a highly incorrect one, might I add.
1. They appear that way because they do not consider the impractical fields of philosophy and art that humans and Eldar spend their time contemplating. How many humans do you know who can assemble a working gun within minutes through instinct alone? Meks may build larger weapons, but even common Boyz can make their own sluggas. Somehow Ghazghkull Thraka was able to devise an effective strategy against the Imperium. And Grog Ironteef against the Tau (who heavily outgunned him). And Gazbag against the Eldar.
2. Armageddon, anyone? The Orks will always unite when they see an enemy; that is the entire principle of the Waaagh!
3. If few other enemies present themselves (the Tau are gone, the Eldar/Dark Eldar have fled to the webway, and what little remains of the IoM is being devoured by Chaos: it was at the beginning of this thread), the Orks will instinctively fight non-orkish enemies. Further, with an inspiring leader like Ghazghkull, issues of competition at the highest levels should be either nonexistent or resolved extremely quickly.

Taoofss wrote:Somehow, the orks have become the smartest race in the 40k universe.

Even if a common great enemy emerged, there will be thousands of Waaaaaggggh prophets who will try to lead. Bug are unified. Single entity with single goal. There is no fluff that suggest orks wouldnt fight one another for the chance to lead the Waaaagghh, even if a great enemy emerged.

Plus, orks are interlocked with war against eldar and tau. They would have to deal with other xenos first before being able to deal with nids with their full attention.

to recap:

1. Orks-not smart.
2. Orks-not unified.
3. Orks-unable to give undivided attention to nids.

I believe the criteria for this versus thread was a "what if" the imperium was gone and these two races exclusively were fighting. Any scenario with multiple actors has them all automatically as enemies to the tyranids, always by tyranid design. Orks have a history of being fairly easily manipulated so long as they're given a good fight. So the more actors in any given "what if" scenario the lower the chances of tyranids conquering the galaxy. In the sense of affecting the fight between nids and orks I feel it would overal be an advantage for the orks if others were involved. The hive mind has to adapt to even more enemies and, again, the orks are easier for humans and eldar to manipulate so they will favor the orks in a fight to extinction.

Orks are cunning and brutal. Many a commander from the "more intelligent" races have been outwitted by a cunning warboss. I mean, there are brilliant ork warbosses out there. I feel your point that orks are not smart has as much validity as "the tyranids are just dumb predators. they can't really outsmart anyone they're too HUR DUR NOM NOM OM!! for anything."

Orks are not unified right now. The reason for this is fairly simple. Orks will always fight non-orks if the fight will actually be a proppa fight. Sadly, there is so much territory in space where all suitable enemies have already been eliminated and so the orks are forced to fight each other (only proppa fight left). When great fights spill out, and last (Armor-gett-em, for example), orks from farther and farther hear the call to war. One would presume the final tyranid offense to be suitably large to attract previously unheard of WAAAAGHH!! crusades.

Taoofss wrote:Somehow, the orks have become the smartest race in the 40k universe.

Even if a common great enemy emerged, there will be thousands of Waaaaaggggh prophets who will try to lead. Bug are unified. Single entity with single goal. There is no fluff that suggest orks wouldnt fight one another for the chance to lead the Waaaagghh, even if a great enemy emerged.

Plus, orks are interlocked with war against eldar and tau. They would have to deal with other xenos first before being able to deal with nids with their full attention.

to recap:

1. Orks-not smart.
2. Orks-not unified.
3. Orks-unable to give undivided attention to nids.

Gazghul is the only prophet of the waaagh because he can communicate with gork and mork and no other orks can (imo this would suggest he is a powerfull and unique psyker but can't channel it like weirdboyz).

In the ork codex it says orks will always unite to foght a common enemy.

Also thhis scenario is about what would happen if ONLY orks and nids were left

Apaert from this i agree completly with how fast ork technolidgy can develop. Imagine if the orks managed to get ahold of a blackstone fortress, if the orks were lucky they could destroy chunks of hive fleet with easily

Previous fluff suggests that even if orks unite, there will be a ton of infighting and back stabbing.

Read the first post. This scenario is NOT what would happen if ONLY orks and nids were left.

Oh. In that case the Necrons will slaughter the nids in order to protect their harvest of souls.

The orks will happily kill each other and anything else they can find.

The Eldar and their dark cousins will keep on doing their thing.

The Tau will be swallowed whole by whoever gets around to it first.

The Demons in the warp will act randomly.

Any questions?

Necrons don't harvest souls...

Nurglitch wrote:Necrons don't harvest souls...

My bad. Don't they harvest them for the C'tan? Or did I get it wrong again? Anyway, they'll kill the nids for being better at exterminating life then them.

The Necrons would likely be a bit busy fighting off Chaos. Let us not forget that the Warp is anathema to the C'tan. They might have some engagements with the Tyranids, but the Daemons would likely be their primary concern.

I think in the end Orkz will out do everyone then get eaten by nids

I think the orks will never unite. I think the imperium will destroy the hive fleets but have its own spine shattered in the process. In the chaos necrons will attempt to harvest the galaxy again but be thwarted by all the other races.

I believe there will always be war. WAAAARGHH!

Yes, by the time only Nids and Orks are left, the Orks will have untold new technology practically every day. Looted stuff from Eldar Craft Worlds, new looted Tau tech, countless ships and tanks from the IOM... But all of this still only changes what the Orks bring to the war... Tyranids have the ability to change the entire dynamics and the very nature of the war itself.

Orks may be able to make a gun that fires a beam 10x hotter than the sun and can punch a hole through a planet... Tyranids can make a nid so small the targeting array of said gun can't lock on... Like my mosquito idea from before: Yes that big gun could blindly fire into the air and kill 17 million of these mosquitoes in one shot. However while the gun reloads and recharges, it only takes 1 of the mosquitoes out of the countless billions still left alive to sting the crews and make the gun useless.

So people say the Orks will bring a flame throwers to counter the mosquito threat... Okay, great idea! Are you going to have those flame throwers turned on all day every day in a 360 degree protective bubble surrounding every Ork???? If so, then Tyranids don't actually have to fight because Orks will just be slow roasting themselves... If not, then again it only takes that 1 mosquito sting and the flame thrower guys are poisoned and dying.

What ever gun the Orks can think of, would have to be able to fire nonstop all day long in order to protect themselves from the mosquito threat. So people might say, how about an enclosed vehicle... Well, I'm willing to set aside the fact that it would be rather difficult for Orks to make a perfectly sealed air tight anything, but the Orks inside have to come out some time or there is at least 1 air vent the mosquito can climb into.

Lets go even smaller and talk about Tyranid germ warfare. Microscopic nids pumped into the air that attack the Spore genome inside the Ork, making any spore they produce upon death mentally brain dead. This is only stuff that only me personally can make up, lets apply the same creative thinking to an almost god like entity with complete recollection and instantaneous response from his minions.

With Orks, only the possibilities of technology are endless... With Tyranids, the possibilities of ANYTHING are endless.

Aww Jeeze, we just pumped out a biological suicidal nuke by accident... THROW IT AT THE TITANS!!!

Footsloggin wrote:Aww Jeeze, we just pumped out a biological suicidal nuke by accident... THROW IT AT THE TITANS!!!

So the Tyranids either win, or the Orks blow themselves up while trying to kill the Tyranids, thus ending in stalemate... This only further proves my point that the only thing Orks can do is make more Dakka... The Orks can not out think the Hive Mind no matter how clever the Warboss might be, they can still only make some form of technology.

What ever the new tactic is, it would only work once and then no more. What ever super weapon is able to kill all the Tyranids in one blast will also destroy all the Orks in the same explosion.

There are some issues with the mosquito tactic;
1. If they carry poison of some kind, they will need a large container of some kind, an easy target. There is no poison sufficiently volatile to kill an Ork with a single drop that would not make short work of the "mosquito". In the cannon, they can take a direct shot to the head from a bolter; I think their bodies (given that they are composed primarily of an extremely robust fungus) are at least constitutionally immune to virtually any poison unless literally pumped full of it.

2. In order to fly at the rates we are predicting, they would need to consume a huge among of calories, meaning that their tiny metabolisms would drain them of all energy well before they reach the Orks.

3. Every one that does die will likely be impossible to recycle into biomass, their tiny frames completely obliterated by the burnas/mortars etc. that the Orks used to kill them.

4. Even assuming that the poison these things are carrying is capable of felling an Ork, they still need to puncture their skin, no mean feat even for a standard sized weapon.

And if the orks have looted so much then surely they would have a supply of life eater virus bombs which they could unleash. The life eater virus bomb could destroy any tyranid, i mean it was so powerfull that the emporer himself hated using it and no ork would hesitate to drop a few in the middle of a hive fleet

Shrouger wrote:There are some issues with the mosquito tactic;
1. If they carry poison of some kind, they will need a large container of some kind, an easy target. There is no poison sufficiently volatile to kill an Ork with a single drop that would not make short work of the "mosquito". In the cannon, they can take a direct shot to the head from a bolter; I think their bodies (given that they are composed primarily of an extremely robust fungus) are at least constitutionally immune to virtually any poison unless literally pumped full of it.

2. In order to fly at the rates we are predicting, they would need to consume a huge among of calories, meaning that their tiny metabolisms would drain them of all energy well before they reach the Orks.

3. Every one that does die will likely be impossible to recycle into biomass, their tiny frames completely obliterated by the burnas/mortars etc. that the Orks used to kill them.

4. Even assuming that the poison these things are carrying is capable of felling an Ork, they still need to puncture their skin, no mean feat even for a standard sized weapon.

The points you are making are good and valid... Here on EARTH!!

However, these are merely minor obstacles and the Hive Mind will have no problem figuring out a way around them. I am just one Cult Magus here, I can not pretend to know the inner workings of Tyranid DNA like a Norn Queen does... They have access down to the tinniest nucleotides of every DNA strand...

The Nid possibilities are endless is the point I am making...

Ork's biggest advantage, technology, is also what limits their ability to win. Tyranids have no such limitations, they can recreate the whole war and the way it is fought, by changing themselves.

Shrouger wrote:There are some issues with the mosquito tactic;
1. If they carry poison of some kind, they will need a large container of some kind, an easy target. There is no poison sufficiently volatile to kill an Ork with a single drop that would not make short work of the "mosquito". In the cannon, they can take a direct shot to the head from a bolter; I think their bodies (given that they are composed primarily of an extremely robust fungus) are at least constitutionally immune to virtually any poison unless literally pumped full of it.

2. In order to fly at the rates we are predicting, they would need to consume a huge among of calories, meaning that their tiny metabolisms would drain them of all energy well before they reach the Orks.

4. Even assuming that the poison these things are carrying is capable of felling an Ork, they still need to puncture their skin, no mean feat even for a standard sized weapon.

Tyranids already choke the atmosphere of planets with spores that are dangerous to the inhabitants before making planetfall. It's part of the cycle of preparing the planet for harvest. They wouldn't actually need a small creature to do it. They'd just create their own version of an Imperial virus bomb. The only reason I'd say they haven't made the Tyranids do things like this is it would make them a terribly boring tabletop army. 'Okay, so, roll to see who goes first. I do. My spores choke your guys. i win.'

Shrouger wrote:3. Every one that does die will likely be impossible to recycle into biomass, their tiny frames completely obliterated by the burnas/mortars etc. that the Orks used to kill them.

You still keep thinking that the Tyranids need those bodies. They make up a tiny, tiny fraction of what gets havested. The only reason they even fight the inhabitants of a planet is to stop them destroying digestion pools and capillary towers, and the rippers and pyrovores digesting the planet. Go back and look at the figures of what is removed from a planet. This is not including the enemy victims, it's only talking about water, minerals, soil and atmospheric gases.

Technology doesn't have any limits that evolution doesn't.

Scrabb wrote:Technology doesn't have any limits that evolution doesn't.

No matter what technology the Orks use, they are still Orks though...

Tyranids have the ability to completely evolve into completely different creatures... The Ork Technology can not do that for them...

Psyker_9er wrote:

Scrabb wrote:Technology doesn't have any limits that evolution doesn't.

No matter what technology the Orks use, they are still Orks though...

Tyranids have the ability to completely evolve into completely different creatures... The Ork Technology can not do that for them...

If you're already the best, why change?

Seriously though, bio-engineering is technology. It changes a creature on a genetic level. The mad doks regularly create cyborks. The orks themselves are part of a group of artificially created races.

Scrabb wrote:

Psyker_9er wrote:

Scrabb wrote:Technology doesn't have any limits that evolution doesn't.

No matter what technology the Orks use, they are still Orks though...

Tyranids have the ability to completely evolve into completely different creatures... The Ork Technology can not do that for them...

If you're already the best, why change?

Seriously though, bio-engineering is technology. It changes a creature on a genetic level. The mad doks regularly create cyborks. The orks themselves are part of a group of artificially created races.

Can an Ork dissolve itself into a billion tiny micro organisms each with completely different DNA coding that the original?

Can a Mad Dok create a new species of Ork never seen before?

Can a Mad Dok sit back and merely think about a new life form and watch it appear from out of the Ork fungus?

Can an Ork instantly convey all the conditions that caused it's death back to the Warboss for further study on ways to adapt?

Can an Ork ever be anything but an Ork, no matter how much cyborg parts it has?


I could go on, but these are only a few things the Tyranids can do that Ork technology will never do.

well orks spores can spawn other types of orks like grots and a mad dok could create a new ork if he took the head from one and put it on another. Grotsnik is rummored to be creating a perfect ork out of the best parts of other orks

Orks are extremely open to "self-improvement" (viz Deff-Dread pilots). A Dok with looted AM tech, with the help of a Mek, could easily churn out new and terrifying Ork cyborgs on a regular basis. They could even experiment with grafting Tyranid parts onto themselves (I believe this was brought up earlier); a few mishaps with ichor later and voila! you have a Nob with a bio-engineered claw with an assault cannon strapped at the elbow, a prehensile tail and another arm (fully mechanical) with a plasma cannon welded to it.

Psyker_9er wrote:Can an Ork dissolve itself into a billion tiny micro organisms each with completely different DNA coding that the original?

No, but then it doesn't need to.

Psyker_9er wrote:Can a Mad Dok create a new species of Ork never seen before?

Sure, why not? Grotsnik is capable of replacing Ork brains with LIVE SQUIGS and getting a functional organism. Nobody really knows what Mad Doks can do when they set their minds to it.

Psyker_9er wrote:Can a Mad Dok sit back and merely think about a new life form and watch it appear from out of the Ork fungus?

No, that effect would require a whole lot of Orks all thinking about it at once, and probably they wouldn't bother.

Psyker_9er wrote:Can an Ork instantly convey all the conditions that caused it's death back to the Warboss for further study on ways to adapt?

No, but the Orks seem to do just fine without this particular ability.

Psyker_9er wrote:Can an Ork ever be anything but an Ork, no matter how much cyborg parts it has?

This is nonsensical. Can a Tyranid ever be anything but a Tyranid? Obviously not, it's a definitional paradox. Can one Ork be wildly different from another physically, even different enough to potentially count as a different species? Absolutely.


How about some counter-points;

Can Tyranids teleport huge numbers of fighters directly to the front lines, like Ghazghkull can?

Can Tyranid basic infantry survive in space?

Are there any Tyranids that can turn their enemies into helpless small animals?


Not to mention, Tyranids have one enormous weakness that Orks don't share; synapse dependence. One lucky bomb takes out one Hive Tyrant, and a whole section of the Tyranid battle-line collapses. If an Ork Warboss is killed, yes, it'll provoke infighting; AFTER the battle is over. The orks won't bother to hash the chain of command out until they've killed everything that isn't green, whereas the Tyranids turn into animals as soon as the synapse chain is broken.

BeRzErKeR wrote:How about some counter-points;

Can Tyranids teleport huge numbers of fighters directly to the front lines, like Ghazghkull can?

No, but they have their own methods. Trygons and Mawlocs creating tunnel networks underground, for example.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Can Tyranid basic infantry survive in space?

I'd say yes - I wouldn't expect hive ships to be air tight.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Are there any Tyranids that can turn their enemies into helpless small animals?

Dominatrices and Norn Queens can by reusing their biomass. You didn't stipulate how.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Not to mention, Tyranids have one enormous weakness that Orks don't share; synapse dependence. One lucky bomb takes out one Hive Tyrant, and a whole section of the Tyranid battle-line collapses. If an Ork Warboss is killed, yes, it'll provoke infighting; AFTER the battle is over. The orks won't bother to hash the chain of command out until they've killed everything that isn't green, whereas the Tyranids turn into animals as soon as the synapse chain is broken.

Not true. There's overlapping synaptic links all the time. Hive Tyrants are supported by Warriors, Primes, Shrikes, Tervigons and Zoanthropes, all of which are synaptic links, not to mention main assaults are supported by Dominatrices, which are the ultimate synaptic link.

-Loki- wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:How about some counter-points;

Can Tyranids teleport huge numbers of fighters directly to the front lines, like Ghazghkull can?

No, but they have their own methods. Trygons and Mawlocs creating tunnel networks underground, for example.

yes but thats not the same because the Orks can teleport from space but Trygongs and Mawlocs have to be on the planet before tunneling,

Dominatrices and Norn Queens can by reusing their biomass. You didn't stipulate how.

But by that time, the enemies have already been processed into raw biomass; they have lost all identity. So the point still stands. 'Nids do not have Weirdboyz, Orks have no Zoanthropes.