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I'm enough of a pessimist to expect the new dex to suck and yet be ok with it

I play with them now and they are considered horrible. I'll play with them updated and still reap a tally fitting my metal children of death incarnate. Either way, it's an excuse to want to buy new models as I've basically maxed the force org charts to the brim with everything barring the Deceiver.

Kurgash wrote:I play with them now and they are considered horrible. I'll play with them updated and still reap a tally fitting my metal children of death incarnate. Either way, it's an excuse to want to buy new models as I've basically maxed the force org charts to the brim with everything barring the Deceiver.

How can you own everything but the Deciever He's so cool.

But, I'm with you here. No amount of rule mangling or fluff strangling will make me abandon my machinophilia for the necrons.

If the new Necron codex is horrible, Necron players will deal. They've been playing with a subpar book for years, and it would at least change things up a bit.

Not that I'm wishing for Necrons to get a bad codex, but whichever way the Ward swings on this one can't hurt them too bad.

Cryage wrote:

Noir Eternal wrote:I can only hope your wrong about Ward because not only has all this talk made me nervous about the codex, but I would be extremely upset if the fluff gets destroyed and the army rules made mediocre. As long as Necrons players had to wait for this codex, if it gets made poorly most of us will have to change armies for good.

That's the one thing that terrifies me more than anything. If the book is absolutely terribad , then I will have to abandon Necrons for probably 6-9 years :(

I've dealt with an under-powered out of date codex for many years now. At least a new one will be a change of pace.

Oh yeah, like I said, Matt Ward's Fantasy work is garbage. Daemons single handedly made me not like to play Fantasy anymore.

But like I said, his 40K work has been great. BA and SM are good, balanced, well rounded books with solid rules and lots of options and builds. I don't care much about the fluff in a Codex to be honest. I get my fluff fix from BL novels and fluff specific books. A codex for me is simply a resource to play the game.

Cool! I'm looking forward to them. FNP is pretty.... Tough; but it should be manageable if the army is more 'elite' (like gk).

I'm hoping against vehicles other than the monolith. If they get transports, they'll be impossible to kill, I think (living metal+FNP guys inside would be murder)

But cool!

Samus_aran115 wrote:Cool! I'm looking forward to them. FNP is pretty.... Tough; but it should be manageable if the army is more 'elite' (like gk).

I'm hoping against vehicles other than the monolith. If they get transports, they'll be impossible to kill, I think (living metal+FNP guys inside would be murder)

But cool!

They would be Plague Marines, no longer Necrons. This is why WBB shouldn't be replaced by FNP but rather adjusted or streamlined. WBB isn't the problem with the codex, I dunno why its been the popular thing to talk about.

yeah I never found WBB to be particularly confusing. Hell most of the Necron rules are straightforward, just kinda bad

asimo77 wrote:yeah I never found WBB to be particularly confusing. Hell most of the Necron rules are straightforward, just kinda bad

It's phase out that needs to go away. WBB is half of the cron's fluff, and it would be a pity to see it go completely.

asimo77 wrote:yeah I never found WBB to be particularly confusing. Hell most of the Necron rules are straightforward, just kinda bad

And for those that just can't stand keeping track of everything for WBB, they could just streamline it a bit.

Under the current rules, if a unit doesn't have a living member or a living unit of the same type close enough then the Necrons don't have a chance to get back up. If there is a Res Orb close enough, then they do still get their rolls. The basic gist of everything is Necrons can resurrect if they aren't isolated or if they have a Res Orb within range. This strays a little bit from the fluff of the Necrons as resurrection can be disallowed. To correct this, enhance the strength of the codex, and maintain the fluff I suggest the following:

Necrons ALWAYS get WBB rolls regardless of circumstances. In response to this, make WBB a 5+ to start and have modifiers that will enhance or hurt the roll based on what is going on on the table. Same type of unit in range? Give it a +1. Res Orb in range? Give them another +1. Unit is above 50% could be another +1. If the unit is wiped out then it could be a -1. AP1, AP2, and Instant Death could be another -1 with a roll of 6 always being a successful resurrection. Basically, turn WBB into a vehicle damage chart type roll with modifiers. It would take more time to learn then FNP or the current WBB but once the player knows the modifiers, it would be very quick to resolve just like vehicle damage. It would reward Res Orbs and the "wave of metal" type playstyle that suits Necrons so well while also allowing for Necrons to always pop back up (as they should). To balance this, the base roll is worse then the current and FNP and negative modifiers reward the opponent for a decisive victory or devastating weapons.

I know that can be construed as Wishlisting and I don't intend to do so. I just want to illustrate that WBB can be tweaked to the preservation of fluffy gameplay while also adding a risk/reward factor to the Necron playstyle in the general spirit of 40K as a whole (gutsy decisions and random dice rolling).

prime12357 wrote:It's phase out that needs to go away.

As an opponent of Necrons (I don't play them, but I have taken over a friend's Necrons many times in friendly doubles games when said friend needed to take off) I think Phase Out is one of the best parts of the codex. Necrons are supposed to be frightening, unstoppable even. To reflect this, I would like to see them amped up in power beyond their point costs but keep the Phase Out rule. This would mean that victories against Necrons are rarely a traditional game of objective grabbing and more often a desperate rush to force Phase Out. I also like that they don't count all models towards Phase Out as it prevents a player from loading up on super-powerful units. The reason why this isn't fair with the current codex is how weak the "Necron" rule models are in general. To keep the current structure for Phase Out, they would have to enhance the "Necron" units to make them attractive in ways other then preventing Phase Out.

Like with WBB, I don't think the Phase Out or "Necron" rules are the problems but just the overall stats and points costs of all the models. Most of the special rules for Necrons are great but they aren't coupled with extremely powerful units that would balance the special rules. Fix that and I think WBB and Phase Out would be great parts of the game.

I don't think Necrons should get transports, per se, since that makes them too much like Marines. However, more teleporting options would keep things interesting and distinctive. Figure something like teleportation relays, and Necrons warping from beacon to vehicle-mounted beacon every turn.

asimo77 wrote:

Kurgash wrote:I play with them now and they are considered horrible. I'll play with them updated and still reap a tally fitting my metal children of death incarnate. Either way, it's an excuse to want to buy new models as I've basically maxed the force org charts to the brim with everything barring the Deceiver.

How can you own everything but the Deciever He's so cool.

But, I'm with you here. No amount of rule mangling or fluff strangling will make me abandon my machinophilia for the necrons.

I don't know D: I just never bought him.

Personally, regarding Matt's other work, I'm trying to figure out why in the world the Necrons and Blood Angels would ever have worked together to stomp on the Tyranids.

It just doesn't seem to jive with the Tyranid 'dex talking about how they have avoided tomb worlds... I figured that the Necrons being just robots pretty much precluded the Tyranids from having any sort of reason to attack them. After all, the Tyranids are after biomatter, which the 'Crons obviously haven't got. Heck, if I was the 'cron commander in that situation I would have just sent my troops back to the tomb and waited for the Tyranids to eat the blood angels and leave. Seems like a much easier way to get your planet back.

One of my armies is necrons; and it's my favorite. It was the first I collected and is probably the largest by way of points value.

If I had one wish it would be for GW to continue the story line and have the void dragon awake. That would be pure awesomeness. Not holding my breath for it; although I have to admit continual expansion of the story line was one thing that I really liked about BattleTech.

I don't need named 'cron lords. Just a few minor changes with Pariahs, an update to WBB, and a complete overhaul of phase out; losing 75% shouldn't mean game over. Maybe losing 75% of a unit means it has to try and do a WBB roll in order to come back through an available monolith would be cool... Or even if they fail a morale check (again 75% shooting casualties or from a lost close combat) they have to try a WBB in order to not be completely run off the table.

Besides that the last thing would be to make the metal models MUCH cheaper by selling them in plastic boxed sets. $15 to $20 or so a guy is a bit expensive.

Either way, here's hoping that a new necron codex somehow manages to make the army good enough to kick the crap out of the blood angels. I want to see those marines cry like the little babies they really are.

clively wrote:Personally, regarding Matt's other work, I'm trying to figure out why in the world the Necrons and Blood Angels would ever have worked together to stomp on the Tyranids.

It just doesn't seem to jive with the Tyranid 'dex talking about how they have avoided tomb worlds... I figured that the Necrons being just robots pretty much precluded the Tyranids from having any sort of reason to attack them. After all, the Tyranids are after biomatter, which the 'Crons obviously haven't got. Heck, if I was the 'cron commander in that situation I would have just sent my troops back to the tomb and waited for the Tyranids to eat the blood angels and leave. Seems like a much easier way to get your planet back.

As I understand it, the Necrons and Blood Angels were aware of the other's presence but the two forces were fighting the Tyranids on complete opposite sides of the planet.

As for why they didn't engage after the Tyranids, well both forces had to be weakened by the conflict though the Blood Angels would be hurt worse since they can't resurrect like Necrons. Since it was a Tomb World, the Necrons would have probably advanced on the Blood Angels had they stuck around after.

The Necrons would have just waited for the two groups to get done killing each other, and then mopped up...

They also would have fought the Bangles until they won or phased out. What happens when they phase out? The re-appear at the nearest tomb world- right where they were... One quick repair job and off they go again, fully restored

Matt is a clueless wonder for fluff.

I don't see anything about being on opposite sides of the planet in the Blood Angels codex.

Also, what happened to purge the xeno, burn the heretic etc et al. I seem to rememember this being the modus operandi for the Astartes? Feeling distaste for wiping out a xeno race they fought alongside is a new one, and borders on (if not swan-dives into) heresy.

*edited for clarity*

Ascalam wrote:The Necrons would have just waited for the two groups to get done killing each other, and then mopped up...

They also would have fought the Bangles until they won or phased out. What happens when they phase out? The re-appear at the nearest tomb world- right where they were... One quick repair job and off they go again, fully restored

Matt is a clueless wonder for fluff.

I don't see anything about being on opposite sides of the planet in the Blood Angels codex.

Also, what happened to purge the xeno, burn the heretic etc et al. I seem to rememember this being the modus operandi for the Astartes? Feeling distaste for wiping out a xeno race they fought alongside is a new one, and borders on (if not swan-dives into) heresy.

*edited for clarity*

The opposite sides of the planet part is just what I've seen be the dominant interpretation through my FLGS and on various message boards, hence "my understanding of it" rather then "this is exactly what happened."

As for why the Necrons wouldn't kill the Blood Angels, I think you are completely right in your assumptions. They would absolutely move against them after the Tyranids are gone, they are practically immortal and like you said wouldn't phase out at all. Reminds me of characters being killed in Hell in South Park, "yeah well where was he gonna go, Detroit?"

The thing that would make the most sense that would stop a Necrons vs Blood Angels showdown would be the losses taken by the Blood Angels during the campaign against the Tyranids. Blood Angels (and all Astartes for that matter) are xenophobic crusaders but they aren't stupid. If they aren't fit to immediately engage another foe after finishing a campaign they are going to withdraw, regroup, and THEN consider attacking. I don't know if this is what Mr. Ward intended with his narrative but I think it is a logical explanation to the whole thing, at least more so then considering the Blood Angels and Necrons actual allies.



PS: Ascalam, I love your sig. Can't stand overzealous advocates of RAW, ruining the thematic qualities of the game by trying to cheese some loophole to victory.

Reecius wrote:But like I said, his 40K work has been great.

An extreme matter of debate.

Reecius wrote:BA and SM are good, balanced, well rounded books with solid rules and lots of options and builds [and] I don't care much about the fluff in a Codex to be honest.

I'm the opposite. I don't care much about the rules. I care more about the fluff. The Marine Codex is only the start of Ward's bat-gak insane fascination with all things Marine. We get the very early beginnings of his obsession with Roboute Guilliman, his love of the Ultramarines, the 'everyone wants to be an ultramarine/spiritual liege' stuff. It's fairly low key though.

Blood Angels hit and suddenly every weapon has the word Blood in it and we've got Jesus The Space Marine Mary-Sue-ing it across the galaxy taking names. It's a mess.

And then the Grey Knights take that just one step beyond... beyond sanity, beyond reason... Draigo. Good Lord, the Draigo entry. *sigh*
That and the GK Codex is a complete mess as well. The damn thing's just hard to read, let alone use. Jervis' 'let's have a Wargear section' has been twisted beyond all belief by this point.

So the idea of Matt Ward writing a Necron Codex is horrific for me. The rules might turn out balanced (like the Marine Codex), slightly kooky (like the BA Codex), or pants-on-head-slowed (GK Codex)... but the fluff will be third rate 15-year-old fanfictiony nonsense, and that's awful.

I'm more about the rules, than the fluff, but since this will be his first non marine dex, maybe, things will turn out ok...

I'm always looking to the brightside.

I haven't seen the GK Codex yet, so I'm going to hold my breath on their rules until I do.

The necron dex has the best collection of unconfirmed fluff and fluff-seeds in any codex i've read. You could go in an almost infinite number of awesome directions with the stuff implied heavily in there...

Want to bet that instead we get a rip off of the Terminator movies plotline, with sarah connor as a ticked off Sororitas and Kyle Rees as a Space Marine captain?

Ah well. If it turns out to be the heaping pile of Grox dung i expect i can always sell my 6000 + Pt army to the powergamers who want in on the next uber-powerful release by Mr Ward....

And Waaagh Grabwotz will double in size (again )

I just looked up Draigo online

He beat Mortarion ಠ_ಠ

God damn it Matt Ward, seriously?

hmm.. let me see here...

mortal hero, fairly potent from what i've heard rumored...

versus a PRIMARCH?

Um, no!

If this is what the fluff-writers are getting through post proofreading (if there is any- a matter of debate) i'm going to seriously have to consider switching games before Ward makes the Deceiver Dante's boytoy or something....

But it's not the carving of the name upon Mortarion's heart that's the bad part about Draigo's entry. A Grey Knight Chapter Master taking on a Daemon Primarch I don't have that much of an issue with. It happened with Angron (though there were 100+/- GK's in that fight). The issue is the childish narrative structure he weaves into the story that makes you sit back and go "Does he re-read what he writes, or does he just move onto the next absurd feat?"

I mean look at this:

Draigo beat down a Daemon Prince.
And then he carved his fallen master's name into Mortarion's heart!
And then he got sucked into the Warp but he had lost his blade!
And then he killed a Bloodthirster with his bare hands.
And made a new blade out of the Bloodthirsters axe.
And then he burnt down Nurgle's entire garden!
And then he defeated M'kachen!
And then he destroyed Tzeentch's big city!
And then he buried M'kachen under the rubble.
And then he fought the Daemon Prince he fought before and beat him again.

I used to write stuff like that.

When I was 6.

H.B.M.C. wrote:But it's not the carving of the name upon Mortarion's heart that's the bad part about Draigo's entry. A Grey Knight Chapter Master taking on a Daemon Primarch I don't have that much of an issue with. It happened with Angron (though there were 100+/- GK's in that fight). The issue is the childish narrative structure he weaves into the story that makes you sit back and go "Does he re-read what he writes, or does he just move onto the next absurd feat?"

I mean look at this:

Draigo beat down a Daemon Prince.
And then he carved his fallen master's name into Mortarion's heart!
And then he got sucked into the Warp but he had lost his blade!
And then he killed a Bloodthirster with his bare hands.
And made a new blade out of the Bloodthirsters axe.
And then he burnt down Nurgle's entire garden!
And then he defeated M'kachen!
And then he destroyed Tzeentch's big city!
And then he buried M'kachen under the rubble.
And then he fought the Daemon Prince he fought before and beat him again.

I used to write stuff like that.

When I was 6.

Is this serious? or an Exaggeration?

I hope this isn't serious...

I was going to comment, but I can't find the right words..

Hold the vox-transmitter...

Does anyone else remember a Necron Codex rumour that said that the rules were finalised, its just that Matt Ward is having trouble with the fluff. If this means that they'll draft in other writers to help...

We might not be doomed!

Unless they draft in Arbitrary Cruddace, Inventor and Destroyer of (craft)worlds...

Sasori wrote:Is this serious? or an Exaggeration?

I hope this isn't serious...

I haven't copied the text verbatim, but yes, that is the story of Grand Master Draigo of the Grey Knights, a new special character in the GK Codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:Unless they draft in Arbitrary Cruddace, Inventor and Destroyer of (craft)worlds...

Arby got his name after what he did to the Guard, but the story of the Doom of Malantai really solidified his claim to the grand title of 'Arbitrary'. If you ever have doubts that 40K's fluff is completely arbitrary and can be chopped and changed at the whim of a writer, look no further than anything Cruddance has done.

Heres to hoping the new 'Cron rumors are true!....

They've been in need of love for years

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Reecius wrote:But like I said, his 40K work has been great.

An extreme matter of debate.

Reecius wrote:BA and SM are good, balanced, well rounded books with solid rules and lots of options and builds [and] I don't care much about the fluff in a Codex to be honest.

I'm the opposite. I don't care much about the rules. I care more about the fluff. The Marine Codex is only the start of Ward's bat-gak insane fascination with all things Marine. We get the very early beginnings of his obsession with Roboute Guilliman, his love of the Ultramarines, the 'everyone wants to be an ultramarine/spiritual liege' stuff. It's fairly low key though.

Blood Angels hit and suddenly every weapon has the word Blood in it and we've got Jesus The Space Marine Mary-Sue-ing it across the galaxy taking names. It's a mess.

And then the Grey Knights take that just one step beyond... beyond sanity, beyond reason... Draigo. Good Lord, the Draigo entry. *sigh*
That and the GK Codex is a complete mess as well. The damn thing's just hard to read, let alone use. Jervis' 'let's have a Wargear section' has been twisted beyond all belief by this point.

So the idea of Matt Ward writing a Necron Codex is horrific for me. The rules might turn out balanced (like the Marine Codex), slightly kooky (like the BA Codex), or pants-on-head-slowed (GK Codex)... but the fluff will be third rate 15-year-old fanfictiony nonsense, and that's awful.

Yeah, I understand. Different strokes for different folks.

I suppose the best of both worlds would be to have Phil Kelly write them all!

But seriously, the gakky fluff in the dexes is why I stopped reading it. I would rather read it on librarium online or wikipedia where at least it is just facts and not third rate fan-fiction level bad, crap. Most of the fluff for the game, while fascinating, is so poorly delivered that I can't read it. That is why novels like Soul Hunter or Storm of Iron are so nice, they are actually readable and enjoyable.

That is why the codex for me is just rules these days. I read the fluff more out of a sense of duty, but don't put much mind to it.