Sisters of Battle to receive a White Dwarf Codex (confirmation on pg 13)

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**Melissia**

yakface wrote:And what other instances since Dark/Blood Angels have they had armies with similar designs going getting an update? The answer is: none until now!

SO WAIT, you mean, they're doing it differently, therefor I am right in pointing out that they are doing it differently?

**H.B.M.C.**

yakface wrote:The thing you have to remember is that all new releases have had a significant number of new units added to them in almost all cases, not to mention a number of extra units added that don't come with initial models to leave room for them to come back and revisit the range again later without releasing a new codex.

And the thing you have to remember is that, like the Grey Knights were, the Sisters are a completely metal range. New units get invented when:

1. The mainstay units are already in plastic.
2. You need more than recuts/removing hybrid kits to prop up a release (that's the reason why the Drop Pod and Land Speeder Storm exist in plastic).

Right now none of the mainstay Sisters units outside of the Immolator are in plastic, and like the Grey Knights (and the Space Wolves for that matter), two kits will cover all their options. For GK's they had to invent new units because what they had was so thin (4 squads, one of which was just the Troops unit that could Deep Strike in). Even now, with the addition of Paladins, Interceptors and Purifiers it's still just two kits covering all of them. Celestines, Dominions, Retributors and regular SoB Squads can be done via one box. Seraphim, like GK Terminators and Wolf Guard Terminators, are the only ones that vary enough in pose, look and weaponry that they would require a separate kit to the standard 'Troops' kit.

Does this mean there won't be new units? Of course not. You can be certain that when the Exorcist goes from metal/plastic hybrid that it won't just become a plastic Exorcist. It will be an Exorcist/[another type of tank] kit, just like most of the recent tank kits.

yakface wrote:So while you can list the existing models in the line and it may not sound like too much, you have to remember that there are going to be 'X' number of new units that they will also be designing and making kits for.

And a lot of 'new' units often get done in metal because it's cheaper than making plastic moulds for something that people might not like or because they're something that people won't buy lots of so making your money back on the mould isn't easy (it's why so many of the new Tyranid beasties were in metal, by Sternguard and Vanguard were in metal, why units like Mandrakes and Incubi are metal). But, with what's happening with metal at the moment, we don't know what the end result of that might be, so the issue mightn't be coming up with new units but how to produce those new units. Otherwise you end up like the Tyranids, with damn-near half their Codex not existing in model form, and then we're back to 2nd Ed 40K again... which is a horrible place to be.

**pretre**

Thanks for the reopen, Yak. More importantly, thanks for the refocus.

We definitely need less OMG and more discussion around here.

For the record, I think a WD codex would be great until they finish the real thing. Which from what we've been hearing, will be a while.

**Eumerin**

yakface wrote:Again, it isn't so much about fixing 'issues' as making the army list match closer to what the army is going to be. The BA codex was released in mid-2008 and the final codex was released in mid-2010. If people are hoping for Sisters to come out later this year, obviously a WD codex should nix that idea, but even if GW is planning to release the codex sometime in 2012 it makes perfect sense to release a WD army list now, because of the discrepancies in styles between the old WH codex and the current GK codex.

If a codex is due out in 2012, then a WD is pointless as it won't be around long enough to be worth bothering with. And a codex post-2012 doesn't make sense given the way that GW lately has been quickly working to update the oldest armies both in 40K and Fantasy. There's been a clear emphasis on GW's part to finally replace the army books and codices of the oldest armies for both game systems - and once Necrons are released, Sisters will be the oldest 40K army.

Finally, people keep talking about having to track down issues of WD. To reiterate, while this will come out in WD supposedly, it will also be released via PDF exactly as they did with Blood Angels. There will be no requirement for people to track down issues of WD, just internet access.

Unfortunately, that comment ignores the simple fact that GW often has a very lousy track record in putting stuff up on their website in a timely fashion.

**yakface**

Eumerin wrote:
If a codex is due out in 2012, then a WD is pointless as it won't be around long enough to be worth bothering with. And a codex post-2012 doesn't make sense given the way that GW lately has been quickly working to update the oldest armies both in 40K and Fantasy. There's been a clear emphasis on GW's part to finally replace the army books and codices of the oldest armies for both game systems - and once Necrons are released, Sisters will be the oldest 40K army.

What if its late 2012? 1 1 /2 years would not be worth it? Again, I'm basing this on the last time GW did exactly what is being suggested...the Blood Angels codex. This is not a 'full' codex, but something to get you by until the codex is released. So what exactly is not long enough to bother with? At this very moment, the massive differences between the way the Grey Knights and Sisters of Battles shared rules differ are quite apparent. What exactly would be bad about having a stop-gap WD codex that gives you an idea of how the final codex is going to look? If you're not going to be able to play your existing Inquisitorial army with Sister allies with the new codex, does it really make a huge difference if you get wind of the change now or in 2 years?

And again, my premise is that it isn't a simple matter of GW snapping their fingers and saying 'hey we're going to release this army or that army next', there is actual long lead times involved with doing development on armies. Necrons seem to be an old army that took a lot of resources to redo, as they've redone much of the range and added so many new units, so it makes total sense that GW would be able to squeeze in armies that would take considerably less design resources to finish like Black Templars and even Tau before they get to something like the Sisters.

Unfortunately, that comment ignores the simple fact that GW often has a very lousy track record in putting stuff up on their website in a timely fashion.

And again, I'm just basing this on the actual last time GW did something like this, which was the Blood Angels WD codex. In which case, yes they did put it up as a PDF at the end of the month that it was released in White Dwarf. There's no reason to assume that things would be any different this time.

**augustus5**

I think a lot of the frustration at hearing that SoB may be a WD release is the fear that it may put off a future codex release as a result. I know if the past is any indication, that if a WD release is indeed coming, then likely an actual codex release will follow sometime in the future. But it must come as a real let down to those who have been anxiously waiting for a new codex because it will likely disrupt the style of army they now play, but won't have all the content a full codex release has. I think some Witchhunter players would rather keep the status quo for now and wait until they get the full book codex treatment to change up their armies.

**ceorron**

I'm showing you this now to ensure everyone is OK with the direction games workshop is taking the sister of battle when the new plastics do come out in 2021.

Of course providing everyone is cool with this the designs can be passed straight to the design team and they can get started straight away.

**Kroothawk**

1.) Sororitas had two Codices before, one a gap-filler that became obsolet within a few months, the other a cheap copy paste gap filler near the end of 3rd edition. Another gap filler would just be too much.
2.) Work on Codex Sororitas started 6 months after Codex Grey Knights. Everything points at it being Ecclesiarchy focussed (new background has to be written), with all Witchhunter units transferred to the Grey Knight COdex for a reason. Several plastic kits like preacher, penitent engine and sororitas have been seen. All this year long work for 10 pages in a WD?

**BrassScorpion**

This thread sure is full of a lot of spam, nonsense and stuff completely fabricated by the people posting rather than something even remotely rumor-like. As usual the "attention grabbers" who can't stop posting no matter how thin the info just to get their post count up or feel that they are the center of attention in every thread have bloated this beyond all proportion. Here's hoping this thread dies soon till there's something even approaching some new plausible sounding rumor or info.

New utility belt "thong" ensures easy access to grenades/clips"

Easy access, eh? Is that what they'll be calling "it" in the lore of the 40K universe, "grenades/clips"? Typical Imperial thinking, everything, and I do mean everything, is couched in military terms. *nudge, wink*

**Slinky**

I'm fine with:

No codex for a while

A WD update codex

A full codex

In the first case I get to keep my Sisters allies in my IG army. In the other cases I get to instead build them up into a full army.

**pretre**

Kroothawk wrote:1.) Sororitas had two Codices before, one a gap-filler that became obsolet within a few months, the other a cheap copy paste gap filler near the end of 3rd edition. Another gap filler would just be too much.
2.) Work on Codex Sororitas started 6 months after Codex Grey Knights. Everything points at it being Ecclesiarchy focussed (new background has to be written), with all Witchhunter units transferred to the Grey Knight COdex for a reason. Several plastic kits like preacher, penitent engine and sororitas have been seen. All this year long work for 10 pages in a WD?

1) Hey, I loved Codex: Chapter Approved. It was a great list and really solidified my love for 40k. I would love for them to do that again.
2) Allegedly work started 6 months after C: GK. Just like this rumor is alleged. Also, I imagine that a WD codex is going to be a stopgap until the real codex is released. I think the real fallacy that people are putting up is that a WD codex will somehow delay a real one. No, I think it is the opposite: a real codex is delayed for one reason or another so a WD codex is being released. You aren't losing anything, but instead gaining something.

**Frazzled**

yakface wrote:
I don't find this possibility to be either surprising or a problem.

It totally fits in line with the last White Dwarf army list (Blood Angels) that was published because at the time the similarities between the Blood Angels and Dark Angles lists meant that much of the work of re-designing the army list for Blood Angels was completed when Jervis wrote the Dark Angels codex.

Similarly, much of what will be in the Sisters Codex has been done with the Grey Knights. All the Inquisitor, Henchmen & Assassin rules should be exactly the same, as will the Inquisitorial special characters, one would assume. So it only makes sense to go ahead and put out a stop-gap list in White Dwarf while the miniature line is being worked on, if for no other reason than not to have two wildly different versions of Assassins running around the game.

In no way can I possibly see this as a method to 'squat' the army. GW has publicly said that they're not 'squatting' any more full armies, and since they've made that announcement, they certainly haven't made any moves to indicate that this has changed. All the army lists that have been published in WD in recent years (Warriors of Chaos & Blood Angels) have gotten full books later, and there's no reason to assume that this won't be the same scenario...and if those examples hold true, there's no reason to assume that the final army list won't be fairly different from what is put out in White Dwarf.

Finally, as for the idea that GW may be 'crapping' on Sisters and instead going with the cash cow of Black Templars, one important thing to remember is that there is very little model development time required to refresh the Black Templars. They are a SM army with a few doo-dads added on, and that means only a small amount of work has to be done. The sisters, on the other hand, will require a much larger amount of new models to bring their line into the current realm of mainly plastics, and that means it will take, much, much longer to complete.

Hell, they worked on Dark Eldar models for about 3 years, if that gives you any indication of how long these things can take when you're talking about redoing most of the line. So even if they're working on both the Black Templars AND the Sisters at the same time (which they probably are) the Black Templars would still make sense to release first simply because they can finish them more quickly.

So to be clear, are we looking at resin sisters until plastic sisters come out at a TBD date later on?
I'm jazzed about the resin as I can convert a full army vs. all metal - I'll never try that again. Any info on on when conversion to resin will occur? Come on GW give me an actual reason to buy an army.

**pretre**

Frazzled wrote:So to be clear, are we looking at resin sisters until plastic sisters come out at a TBD date later on?
I'm jazzed about the resin as I can convert a full army vs. all metal - I'll never try that again. Any info on on when conversion to resin will occur? Come on GW give me an actual reason to buy an army.

I skipped out on the Resin threads mostly. Did anyone ever get a fairly reliable confirmation that GW is moving to resin? Or is it still speculation on the pull of all the metal stuff to direct?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like being able to drop/huck/fire my sisters at random things and have them be completely fine.

**Phototoxin**

So GK were march right? So 3+6, carry the 1, add 2d6+9, subtract sigmars birthday = 9 = september/october? That would fit... although people say necrons then.. but something has to be released inbetween may and september? Would that be necrons? Or are GW being absolute hoors* and going to release them? If they are STILL having plastics trouble then pull necrons forward and bump SOB to later OR wait even longer.... I think we'll learn more when the next 'incoming' is announced... when is that going to be announced anyway?

*Irish Coloquialism - written and intended as 'whores', pronounced 'hoors' (as in moors), and meaing sly or shrewed when applied to a non-female.

**bhsman**

If they're going to release a WDex for Sisters, it'll either be because they want to bring Assassin + Inquisition stats and rules in line with Codex: Grey Knights or because they're being removed entirely a la daemons in Warrior of Chaos. That probably makes the most sense here.

**Revarien**

pretre wrote:I skipped out on the Resin threads mostly. Did anyone ever get a fairly reliable confirmation that GW is moving to resin? Or is it still speculation on the pull of all the metal stuff to direct?

From my Miniwargaming newsletter today:

"Is Games Workshop discontinuing metals?

Ever since Games Workshop stopped selling their metal miniatures to retailers, there have been a lot of rumours as to whether they were getting rid of metals altogether.

The last time I spoke with my trade representative (who apparently is the last to know of any changes) he said that all he was told was that all the metal miniatures were being "repackaged."

Whether that means giving them better blisters (let's face it, the current blister packaging sucks), or whether they are switching from metals to something else (perhaps resin), he has no idea.

Having said that, we have placed all of the GW metals in clearance in anticipation of these changes, so you get to save because of it (whatever "it" is)."

**pretre**

Thanks, Rev.

**Mantle**

ceorron wrote:
I'm showing you this now to ensure everyone is OK with the direction games workshop is taking the sister of battle when the new plastics do come out in 2021.

Of course providing everyone is cool with this the designs can be passed straight to the design team and they can get started straight away.

I think you enjoy female models (the plastic small kind) a little too much....

**Arschbombe**

Melissia wrote:
Besides, having a book on the shelf will get more people to buy the models for the army than not having a book on the shelf. "I'm interested in playing this army, where's its rulebook?" "Oh, it was in a white dwarf a year ago." "Okay, can I buy that?" "No, you missed it." "What?" "Sorry, go look on ebay or something." Cue customer deciding it's too much trouble and going somewhere else instead.

Did you somehow miss the part about it going online as PDF like Blood Angels did? I never saw anyone playing BA actually using the genuine WD issues during a game. Everyone had the PDF codex. A codex that could lay open flat. Who ever heard of such a thing?

I thought the BA dex was a great idea and I still like it more than the Book of Blood despite all the neat, bloody doodads it has. I think the game would be better served if all codices were available (legitimately) as PDFs.

I understand the visceral reaction to a WD codex. While there's no reason it can't be as good a a normal printed codex, putting it in WD just feels like it's being relegated to second class status and the insult is magnified with sisters because they've been a marginalized army for quite some time.

**DarthSpader**

i would not have a problem with a temporary WD list, followed by a proper codex when the models are complete. it would bring the SoB in line with other armies, AND spark some interest in the line up, wich will increase sales and hype for the new range. it would also send a very clear message that "yes they are being worked on, and a codex is arriving shortly" kind of like an appetizer.

as it is right now, i dont think the witch hunters codex is even for sale, and its fairly obseloete. updating through WD with a downloadable pdf after makes sense in the short term.

**Korraz**

Thing is, the book does not really need to be brought in line. It is. Witchhunters stands quite firmly besides all the 4th edition books.

**insaniak**

Revarien wrote:The last time I spoke with my trade representative (who apparently is the last to know of any changes) he said that all he was told was that all the metal miniatures were being "repackaged."

Which could quite simply mean that they're canning blisters (or keeping them as direct only) and putting all of the metals in boxed sets instead, rather than removing metal from the range.

**ashikenshin**

The codex is fine as it is for now, the thing that sucks is the metal models for almost everything. WD update doesn't make sense if they are not bringing in the plastic. New rules won't attract new players or make current players buy more stuff. The prohibitive price of troops it's what's keeping people from buying wh stuff.

**withershadow**

Well, the remaining books to be updated are the Necrons, Tau and Witch Hunters, then Black Templar and Dark Angels who are currently merely FAQ-updated.

With Necrons probably being next, it was speculated the power armored Sisters would be up next. However, their release could be delayed for various reasions, including if they really do show up in the next starter set (tenuous rumor, admittedly).

The FAQ update could be as simple as updating costs/wargear for 5th edition, and copy&pasting the C:GK inquisitor/henchmen/assassins rules over.

**Melissia**

Korraz wrote:Thing is, the book does not really need to be brought in line.

Yes it does. It has no real choice in it.

**pretre**

GW is trying to do away with two sets of rules for the same thing, as Yak said. Hence the BT/DA updates and the theory that WH might get a PDF codex.

**temprus**

Arschbombe wrote:Did you somehow miss the part about it going online as PDF like Blood Angels did? I never saw anyone playing BA actually using the genuine WD issues during a game. Everyone had the PDF codex. A codex that could lay open flat. Who ever heard of such a thing?

I made a flipbook out of mine. One side was BA, the other was the then latest release of the Tempus Fugitives packet with a spiral binding, so it could lay flat.

**Melissia**

And no, I didn't miss that. What's your point? GW fethed up its PDFs for C:WH, C:BA, and C

H, I would hardly expect them to do a quality job on a hypothetical and rather improbable C:SoB.

**Kilkrazy**

A WD codex / PDF sounds like a Chapter Approved kind of thing, which a lot of people would like. It would get players to bring out their current SoB armies, which would popularise the army by example.

I reckon a good Sisters book plus revised models would sell pretty well. It's a different look and feel to an army -- better than another SM codex, anyway.

The metal/resin/blisters mystery will be revealed on Monday. I suggest that people make the most of the 48 hours left to speculate furiously.

**Kroothawk**

A new Codex (plus new releases including plastic standards) would bring even more people to buy Sororitas, don't you think?