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Junk--I edited my post to add in info from the games.

Jy2, I posted above that I felt that CCB, while normally awesome, do not work with tremor-crons as well, since Orikan takes up a spot and you also lose the second solar pulse from the second CCB lord.

Would you agree, after playing your games, with my theorycrafting?

In addition, in my opinion the tomb blades are bad for this kind of list, especially as you have them equipped. Do you feel that the 200 point blade unit would have been better as either 5 more wraiths/another monolith/4 spyders, or did they do well for you despite costing 200 points?

Edit: also, what would have Orikan done for you in the game versus the Eldar, had you kept him in the list?

@Devian - Thanks for the report. It's good to hear that you had success against smart players.

@Jy2 - It's nice to see you, and I can't wait to hear your opinions and see your battle reports.

Now, does Orikan's power work only First Turn, or when the enemy units First Move?

Orikan's ability only works on the first turn.

I finished a game last night with Tremor-crons vs Space Wolves. Mission was from an upcoming tourney and had 3 goals. I got the primary and secondary goal, while my opponent got the tertiary one.

The tremor/Writhing Worldscape combo accounted for about 1/3 of my opponents army, but it too so long. Between me with Storm lord, Orikan, 4 Tremor staves, and 5 Canoptek Spyders, and my opponent having to constantly make Difficult and Dangerous terrain test the game went very very long because of all the extra dice rolling.

I consider my opponent and me to both be "veteran" players with a good deal of experience with both armies. But I just can't see how to get through a full game in a tourney setting, especially if I had to play vs a nid or ork army. Seems like my opponent was having to roll dice just to roll more dice. Any ideas or would it be better to not bring so many things that require extra rolls.

airmang wrote:Orikan's ability only works on the first turn.

I finished a game last night with Tremor-crons vs Space Wolves. Mission was from an upcoming tourney and had 3 goals. I got the primary and secondary goal, while my opponent got the tertiary one.

The tremor/Writhing Worldscape combo accounted for about 1/3 of my opponents army, but it too so long. Between me with Storm lord, Orikan, 4 Tremor staves, and 5 Canoptek Spyders, and my opponent having to constantly make Difficult and Dangerous terrain test the game went very very long because of all the extra dice rolling.

I consider my opponent and me to both be "veteran" players with a good deal of experience with both armies. But I just can't see how to get through a full game in a tourney setting, especially if I had to play vs a nid or ork army. Seems like my opponent was having to roll dice just to roll more dice. Any ideas or would it be better to not bring so many things that require extra rolls.

Wow, I never even considered that. Have a lot of you been experiencing this? In my limited experience with this build I haven't really run into this problem, but then again, everyone in my arena is pretty quick in general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anpu-adom wrote:@Devian - Thanks for the report. It's good to hear that you had success against smart players.

@Jy2 - It's nice to see you, and I can't wait to hear your opinions and see your battle reports.

Cant wait to read Jy2's reports!
Devain, It doesn't seem like the WW had a huge in game impact for you, but it did force your opponent to play on his/her back from reserve, which isly awesome, but is it worth it? You got use out of the C'tan which is cool, and you really put those damn scarabs to work! Would you have been better off with just a pure scarab farm build?

DevianID wrote:Junk--I edited my post to add in info from the games.

Jy2, I posted above that I felt that CCB, while normally awesome, do not work with tremor-crons as well, since Orikan takes up a spot and you also lose the second solar pulse from the second CCB lord.

Would you agree, after playing your games, with my theorycrafting?

Surflords (Overlord on CCB) are always useful, no matter the necron build. That is because they satisfy a few roles that necrons are not particularly good at, especially many of the tremorcrons builds:

1) AT. The more tremorteks in the army, the less lanceteks you have. Thus, unless you take wraiths and scarabs, then the surfboard will help in this area.

2) Ability to take on heavy armor. Besides scarabs and the doom scythe, necrons are not strong against heavy armor. Surflords fill this niche as well.

3) Mobility. You can never have enough mobility. A tremorcron lists will most likely be on foot unless you invest in the more expensive ghost arks. In other words, it is slow.

4) Threat. The surflord is an actual threat that the opponent just cannot ignore.

IMO, the unit that you can actually do without is Orikan. He is just too random of a character. Sure, when he works, he may work great. But would I take him to a tournament and hope that my opponents immobilize a quarter of their army on Turn 1? Don't bet on it.

If anything, my HQ's of choice are double surflords. They're in it for the long haul and not just for Turn 1 shenanigans. And they come with royal courts as well!

In addition, in my opinion the tomb blades are bad for this kind of list, especially as you have them equipped. Do you feel that the 200 point blade unit would have been better as either 5 more wraiths/another monolith/4 spyders, or did they do well for you despite costing 200 points?

Edit: also, what would have Orikan done for you in the game versus the Eldar, had you kept him in the list?

Tomb blades were purely for experimental reasons. I like them in concept, though in practical application they are falling way short of what I was expecting. Though in all fairness, that is partially because for some inexplicable reason, they scare the bejesus out of my opponents who then focus way too much firepower against them. Oh...and I forgot that they had RP in my first 3 games with them.

They could work with the tremorcrons because shooting is what they need in such an army. Moreover, they provide the mobility that my slow army is sorely lacking. But whether are they the optimal choice in such an army? Probably not. Wraiths would have been better.....and in any list, not just tremorcrons. Not much in the codex beat wraiths in terms of efficiency.

Monoliths are meh. My monolith didn't really do much, but then again, that may have more to do with my inexperience in using them (and the fact that my opponents made almost every single cover save against its particle whip). These were my first 2 games with the monos.

Orikan wouldn't have done much against my mechdar opponent. He would've probably just stayed still and I wouldn't have been able to capitalize on it due to my lack of ranged AT. With their mobility, staying still on Turn 1 is nothing to them.

Staying still on turn 1 helps, but that is one of the things I like with scarabs+wraiths and immo/orikan. If you go first, move up after spawning, then you should have assaults on your turn 2. It only takes 3 scarabs to kill a tank that didn't move. So now that eldar army has to move, or go in reserve.

Yeah, Orikan works much better in your list. The combo of double-wraiths + mini scarab-farm goes well with almost any necron build and will always make them competitive.

However, I still have my reservations about Immo and Orikan. Both times, I've used them, they didn't really do much, which just underscores why I'm not really high on them. While others may have awesome experiences with them, my type of experience with them can be just as normal. It is this unpredictability (and thusly, inconsistency in performance) which I do not like.

So I played 2 more games with Orikan and Immotek, versus Rich (the sister player from before) who was running battlewagon orks and Nick running his new GK list.

For the game versus Rich it was pitched with KP, 4 battlewagons, nobs, 2 boyz squads, 2 grot squads, snikrot, ghaz, KFF. 1 rokkit buggy. Here, I missplayed and did not have my wraiths an inch up, allowing a waaagh fueled Snikrot to charge Immo/orikan and 2 warrior squads. Well, I figured not a problem, as I can beat on some orks still right, with chronometron help? Wrong... Snikrot deals 3 wounds to Orikan, fail 3 3++ saves, so he dies before empowering and going crazy. Stormlord kills 2, but I am left with 4 of 12 warriors. Both units break, even with chronometron, everything escapes and runs off the board. So... that is 2 times the weak warriors have cursed me by just laying down and dying. Granted it was my fault for positioning poorly which allowed the charge, but without powering up Orikan is such a chump.

After that, his mistake was underestimating the scarabs. Lightning Immobed 1 battle wagon, Orikan immobed the other, even with deffrolla reroll. Scarabs charged 1 and wrecked it. Boyz charged the scarabs through cover, and I killed all them before they swung. They went on to kill the 2 immobed wagons and both grot squads, plus help wraiths kill the other boy squad.

Needless to say, the ork player was not thrilled, and despite my mistake with stormlord, by not dedicating everything to the scarabs his mistake ended up being worse by 1.

In that game, the tremor teks continued to be of minor value, the spyders did ok, same with the ctan, considering that with no instant death I still put 13 wounds onto the diversified nobs--though I died in the end. What kills me is that the Wraiths are still not performing. The scarabs ate/contributed to 3 wagons, 2 boyz squads, 2 grot squads. The 2 units of scarabs combined got the buggy, 1 other wagon, and contributed with the scarabs to the boyz.

He charged ghaz into 1 Wraith squad, with no more Waaagh save bonus. 18 attacks, 0 wounds, though only 1 wraith died to his claw. In my turn, 2 spyders charged in to help out, did 3 wounds, and 15 Wraith attacks did nothing to ghaz. The spyders only took 2 wounds from ghaz. Then his nobs charge in, 6 more wraith attacks into ghaz, still no wounds. The nobs kill the spyders and wraiths. Ghaz then charges the other wraiths, engaged with boyz. First round, 3 swings, nothing, second round 3 swings and he finally dies. So yeah... I dont know if its just me, but so far Wraiths are looking to get shelved for 10 more scarabs.

In the game with the GK, it was pitched battle and 3 objectives. He had 4 strike squads, 8 DCA, 2 psyriflemen, 2 purifier squads in rhinos, 4 psyback razors, and a land raider redeemer. Coteaz and Inq with win grenades in with the DCA.

So I went second and started spawning scarabs. One unit of wraiths went on the flank with 1 objective, the rest of my army deployed to hold the side with 2 objectives. The lightning killed a dread, immobed 2 razors, and destroyed a rhino with purifiers. Nothing to sneeze at. Orikan t1 prevented the raider from moving. Nick rolled hypothetically, rolled a 1. My quakes saw through night fighting and quaked the raider turn 2. Again he didnt move, but rolled for lolz and rolled a 2. So regardless of outcome of the game, Orikan prevented the raider from moving turn 1 and quake prevented turn 2. Turn 3 I quaked again, but the scarabs were eating everything at this point, so he had to move, and of course rolls a 6 this turn. So the turn I win the game if the quaked land raider immobs itself, it doesnt work. His DCA with grenades multiassault anything they can touch, and his grenades only get 1 bad result the entire game. The poor scarabs got rerolled to hit on, and he wiped out 22 bases with me being unable to swing... boo. The wraiths had to attack themselves in the same combat. Next round he assaults 5 spyders. The 3 man unit of spyders were hit automatically, the 2 man he made init 1. Everything dies to straight wounds without attacks, except for 1 wraith and 1 spyder. Now, I realize that banking on immobing the land raider was wrong, I should instead have kept the wraiths back to counter assault and just sent the scarabs solo. Its not like the wraiths did anything this game. They helped kill some purifiers that scarabs also charged, which didnt matter all that much. They then died to a man to DCA. The other unit got shot to 4 wraiths, and I charged his flank with 1 wraith on the immobed rhino, 1 on the immobed razor, and 2 on the razor that moved 6 inches. I figured that this should be enough to seal his mobility on that side, but the 8 attacks on immobed vehicles did nothing, and the 8 attacks on the mobile vehicle did nothing. So that mobile razor went on to contest the mid objective, causing me to lose. Even if all 16 attacks went to that one razor, it still would have been fully mobile and contested the objective.

Maybe its just me, but wraiths have been poor performers in 4 games so far. I wont give up on them yet, but I do know for a fact that 4 scarabs on that mobile razor would have wrecked the hell out of it, where 4 wraiths would do nothing.

So anyway, long winded minireports done, my observations on the list so far.

Stormlord 4/4. In all 4 games the nightfight was great, and lightning did something. Chronometron helps this greatly. His failing in close combat bother me though.
Orikan 4/4. In the DoW games he made the opponent reserve--fantastic help! In the game with the wagon orks he immobed 1, but also died like a chump in combat. Versus the GK he prevented the raider from moving, a big help, and sat on an objective. In combat he was less useful in these games, as timing the powerup is hard with no mobility to speak of.

Ctan 4/4. So in all 4 games the Ctan was useful. Versus the DoW matches he, with Orikan, forced reserves. He prevented the GK from moving 2 turns, and if he did immob his raider on his charge turn I would have won that game handidly, seeing as the raider went on to contest the 2nd objective on my side. Versus the orks, the terrain was nice, and he also killed snikrot's unit. This match he made the least contribution, as he died to nobs thanks to no instant death, but even when he died the explosion causes some damage.

Chronometron 4/4. This guy is amazing. Love him. Going to run him every game, and I also am considering buying him a 3++ save in bigger games.

Tremor-teks 1.5/4. In the DoW games, the tremors were out of range, as the warriors dont want to advance. They quaked up the land raider, which was very nice, but it didnt matter in the end--though it could have won that game for me. Versus the orks one died before firing, the other hit a wagon, and with the reroll to terrain it didnt help much.

Warriors: 1/4. They charged 5 sisters and lost, needing spyders to bail them out, they had to hide in the other games, really they were only useful versus the GK. They are required, but in terms of contribution they did very little. Most games I would instead love tesla immortals or gauss immortals for Immotek, and the better armor save plus ability to move would be great. 6 points for that upgrade over 15 models means that something else has to give for me to try this out.

Scarabs 4/4. The scarabs dominated every game. Even when they didnt damage the space wolves, the scarabs at 45 strong were my insurance for a KP lead had the game went past 5.

Wraiths 2/3. The wraiths didnt pull their weight, but versus the sisters they did kill exos on one flank despite dying to bolters and meltas horribly on the other flank. Versus the wolves they got the drop pod and then ran away to safety, while also holding the middle of the table. Versus the orks, they killed a wagon and helped kill a boy squad, but did not really help win that battle at all. Versus the GK, they failed to seal the mobility of the GK and died to counter attack. Now in this game I feel had I played the wraiths differently they would have done better, but would they have done better than scarabs? Not sure. I need more games versus more opponents, as the S6 really hasnt mattered yet.

Spyders 4/4. They are really handy. Not bad in assault either. They got killed by GK grenades, but that is to be expected by the GK grenades ability to kill everything. Versus the Orks they grew the scarabs to a critical mass, and did 3/4 wounds to ghaz. They also hurt nobz, but versus the nobz with wound allocation they are not ideal. The number of spyders is still up for debate though. Would 6 still have done as well? What about the full 9?

DevianID wrote: So anyway, long winded minireports done, my observations on the list so far.

Stormlord 4/4. In all 4 games the nightfight was great, and lightning did something. Chronometron helps this greatly. His failing in close combat bother me though.
Orikan 4/4. In the DoW games he made the opponent reserve--fantastic help! In the game with the wagon orks he immobed 1, but also died like a chump in combat. Versus the GK he prevented the raider from moving, a big help, and sat on an objective. In combat he was less useful in these games, as timing the powerup is hard with no mobility to speak of.

Ctan 4/4. So in all 4 games the Ctan was useful. Versus the DoW matches he, with Orikan, forced reserves. He prevented the GK from moving 2 turns, and if he did immob his raider on his charge turn I would have won that game handidly, seeing as the raider went on to contest the 2nd objective on my side. Versus the orks, the terrain was nice, and he also killed snikrot's unit. This match he made the least contribution, as he died to nobs thanks to no instant death, but even when he died the explosion causes some damage.

Chronometron 4/4. This guy is amazing. Love him. Going to run him every game, and I also am considering buying him a 3++ save in bigger games.

Tremor-teks 1.5/4. In the DoW games, the tremors were out of range, as the warriors dont want to advance. They quaked up the land raider, which was very nice, but it didnt matter in the end--though it could have won that game for me. Versus the orks one died before firing, the other hit a wagon, and with the reroll to terrain it didnt help much.

Warriors: 1/4. They charged 5 sisters and lost, needing spyders to bail them out, they had to hide in the other games, really they were only useful versus the GK. They are required, but in terms of contribution they did very little. Most games I would instead love tesla immortals or gauss immortals for Immotek, and the better armor save plus ability to move would be great. 6 points for that upgrade over 15 models means that something else has to give for me to try this out.

Scarabs 4/4. The scarabs dominated every game. Even when they didnt damage the space wolves, the scarabs at 45 strong were my insurance for a KP lead had the game went past 5.

Wraiths 2/3. The wraiths didnt pull their weight, but versus the sisters they did kill exos on one flank despite dying to bolters and meltas horribly on the other flank. Versus the wolves they got the drop pod and then ran away to safety, while also holding the middle of the table. Versus the orks, they killed a wagon and helped kill a boy squad, but did not really help win that battle at all. Versus the GK, they failed to seal the mobility of the GK and died to counter attack. Now in this game I feel had I played the wraiths differently they would have done better, but would they have done better than scarabs? Not sure. I need more games versus more opponents, as the S6 really hasnt mattered yet.

Spyders 4/4. They are really handy. Not bad in assault either. They got killed by GK grenades, but that is to be expected by the GK grenades ability to kill everything. Versus the Orks they grew the scarabs to a critical mass, and did 3/4 wounds to ghaz. They also hurt nobz, but versus the nobz with wound allocation they are not ideal. The number of spyders is still up for debate though. Would 6 still have done as well? What about the full 9?

DevianID, thanks for the battle reports. Here's what I take away from your report.
Stormlord: I think he is an auto include in this list. It also means that we need to go with the more assault style list.
Orikan: Seems to me that a Monolith would help get a powered up Orikan into the fray a little more reliably. His ability to force the opponent into making difficult choices is great for this list, and I'm not ready to dismiss him yet.
C'Tan: I'm glad to hear that he was working for you, both for the gimmick and as a threat on his own.
Tremorteks: I'm hearing that they were effective when the other parts of the army were working. Would they have made a difference if there was less terrain on the board?
Warriors: They just suck in assault. In a sense, they are completely opposite of ork boyz.
Scarabs: 1 large unit of scarabs is going to be an auto-include in every list I make... They are such a threat to most lists, and even if they aren't my opponent over estimates their power.
Wraiths: I still think that they are most effective assault unit we have, but I too need to practice with them more.
Spyders: As J2Y said earlier, mini-Scarab farm and wraiths belong in every list. I'm really glad to hear that they were effective in assault. I've only played them against Tyranids and they went down to a squad of termagaunts (granted, with toxin sacs and Feel No Pain).


It's really too bad that we don't have any options for giving Crypteks more maneuverability... A Tomblade Tremortek would be quite an improvement for this list, for example.

Another thought... do we need tremorteks? Can this list do what it needs to do without spending those 30 points per Cryptek? Thoughtful objective placement and terrain control might be able to make the best out of the rest of our list. Thoughts on that?

Well after 4 games, the Tremors would get cut. But versus jump infantry, or bikes, I feel they would be better, so its a bit too early to call it I feel. Also, if the Land Raider DID get immoblized from the tremor, I would no doubt be raving about them, though they still would have scored a 2/4.

If I could add something right now, it would be a ghost ark for the stormlord's unit. Since they are mostly a cc unit, well once orikan powers up, and they also have relentless, the ghost ark would let them have a much improved threat range. Especially with Immoteks flamer or s6 ap1 line attack. The ghost ark would also boost the warriors if they take damage, keeping them in combat a bit longer.

This causes an issue... if I drop the tremor teks and a spyder, I have 115 points for the ark. Or I can downgrade Wraiths to Scarabs and drop a spyder, or just take Scarabs in units of 2x8 while keeping 7 spyders. No matter how I slice it though, tremor teks or wraiths will have to be dropped.

If I assume that the Ark was there in the 4 games I played, the Ark would have been good versus the sisters in place of either the wraiths or tremor teks. It would be no real change versus the wolf list. Versus the Battlewagons the ark would have been superior to either wraiths or tremor teks. Versus the GK, the mobility of the ark would have been good to get the drop on the DCA, but with the DCA's grenades I dont know if moving them closer would have been good.

Anpu-adom wrote:

DevianID wrote: So anyway, long winded minireports done, my observations on the list so far.

Stormlord 4/4. In all 4 games the nightfight was great, and lightning did something. Chronometron helps this greatly. His failing in close combat bother me though.
Orikan 4/4. In the DoW games he made the opponent reserve--fantastic help! In the game with the wagon orks he immobed 1, but also died like a chump in combat. Versus the GK he prevented the raider from moving, a big help, and sat on an objective. In combat he was less useful in these games, as timing the powerup is hard with no mobility to speak of.

Ctan 4/4. So in all 4 games the Ctan was useful. Versus the DoW matches he, with Orikan, forced reserves. He prevented the GK from moving 2 turns, and if he did immob his raider on his charge turn I would have won that game handidly, seeing as the raider went on to contest the 2nd objective on my side. Versus the orks, the terrain was nice, and he also killed snikrot's unit. This match he made the least contribution, as he died to nobs thanks to no instant death, but even when he died the explosion causes some damage.

Chronometron 4/4. This guy is amazing. Love him. Going to run him every game, and I also am considering buying him a 3++ save in bigger games.

Tremor-teks 1.5/4. In the DoW games, the tremors were out of range, as the warriors dont want to advance. They quaked up the land raider, which was very nice, but it didnt matter in the end--though it could have won that game for me. Versus the orks one died before firing, the other hit a wagon, and with the reroll to terrain it didnt help much.

Warriors: 1/4. They charged 5 sisters and lost, needing spyders to bail them out, they had to hide in the other games, really they were only useful versus the GK. They are required, but in terms of contribution they did very little. Most games I would instead love tesla immortals or gauss immortals for Immotek, and the better armor save plus ability to move would be great. 6 points for that upgrade over 15 models means that something else has to give for me to try this out.

Scarabs 4/4. The scarabs dominated every game. Even when they didnt damage the space wolves, the scarabs at 45 strong were my insurance for a KP lead had the game went past 5.

Wraiths 2/3. The wraiths didnt pull their weight, but versus the sisters they did kill exos on one flank despite dying to bolters and meltas horribly on the other flank. Versus the wolves they got the drop pod and then ran away to safety, while also holding the middle of the table. Versus the orks, they killed a wagon and helped kill a boy squad, but did not really help win that battle at all. Versus the GK, they failed to seal the mobility of the GK and died to counter attack. Now in this game I feel had I played the wraiths differently they would have done better, but would they have done better than scarabs? Not sure. I need more games versus more opponents, as the S6 really hasnt mattered yet.

Spyders 4/4. They are really handy. Not bad in assault either. They got killed by GK grenades, but that is to be expected by the GK grenades ability to kill everything. Versus the Orks they grew the scarabs to a critical mass, and did 3/4 wounds to ghaz. They also hurt nobz, but versus the nobz with wound allocation they are not ideal. The number of spyders is still up for debate though. Would 6 still have done as well? What about the full 9?

DevianID, thanks for the battle reports. Here's what I take away from your report.
Stormlord: I think he is an auto include in this list. It also means that we need to go with the more assault style list.
Orikan: Seems to me that a Monolith would help get a powered up Orikan into the fray a little more reliably. His ability to force the opponent into making difficult choices is great for this list, and I'm not ready to dismiss him yet.
C'Tan: I'm glad to hear that he was working for you, both for the gimmick and as a threat on his own.
Tremorteks: I'm hearing that they were effective when the other parts of the army were working. Would they have made a difference if there was less terrain on the board?
Warriors: They just suck in assault. In a sense, they are completely opposite of ork boyz.
Scarabs: 1 large unit of scarabs is going to be an auto-include in every list I make... They are such a threat to most lists, and even if they aren't my opponent over estimates their power.
Wraiths: I still think that they are most effective assault unit we have, but I too need to practice with them more.
Spyders: As J2Y said earlier, mini-Scarab farm and wraiths belong in every list. I'm really glad to hear that they were effective in assault. I've only played them against Tyranids and they went down to a squad of termagaunts (granted, with toxin sacs and Feel No Pain).


It's really too bad that we don't have any options for giving Crypteks more maneuverability... A Tomblade Tremortek would be quite an improvement for this list, for example.

Another thought... do we need tremorteks? Can this list do what it needs to do without spending those 30 points per Cryptek? Thoughtful objective placement and terrain control might be able to make the best out of the rest of our list. Thoughts on that?

I'll agree that warriors could be greatly improved by turning them into immortals, but I still wouldn't get them into assault without Anrakyr's or Nemesor's buff.

Dev, Your mini reports were welcome and very informative; I cannot believe that the wraiths didn't perform at all for you, 4 rending s6 attacks per base usually does something. At least they kept thraka busy.

Despite your success with Orikan/Immotekh, I'm still not in the 'autoinclude' camp.

Your results with scarabs are impressive, I find that scarabs take an early high priority bullseye and often get one good charge before getting removed, my regular opponents are familiar with the damage they cause and often scarabs win the prize.

Spyders are great, I like 1-3, as I often use my heavy support slots to pair something else. As I said earlier, I also don't mind paying to stick guns on a few of them.

The Tremorteks vs. immotekh dilemma is at the center of your list, you could deploy them closer by attaching them to immortals rather than squishy warriors or throw a crucible in to impede stampedes.

Nice that the C'tan isn't getting focused on early as was a worry we'd addressed in the early pages, he seems to consistently be able to get into a position of usefulness. How are you feeling about secondary powers? I've been anxious to try out gaze.

Also, I guess I'll have to withdraw my skeptecism about the chronotek, makes sense in your list, and apparently works well.

You can mobilize Crypteks with royal yacht, or attach a VoD, or stick them with deathmarks in night scythes.

You haven't seen how effective Tremorteks can be against assault lists, it's obscene how much they ruin your opponent's game. It screws a lot of foot lists over completely, like foot-draigo, deathwing, etc... The best way to deal with CC deathstars is to limit their mobility and avoid them... 1 tremortek can do that. You're not trying to 'win' with dangerous terrain tests, you're trying to win by stopping your opponent from getting where he wants to go.

Junk, I agree that Orikan and Immotek are not autoincludes, BUT for tremor+scarab farm, they have been working very well. Immotek has killed or wounded something every game, and Orikan's turn 1 movement has at least been useful.

Were I to drop Immotek, I would run Anrykr, as he also combo's well with the chronometron and is pretty beastly with his immortals as well--as I still feel that a single surfboard is not a good idea since we are still running Orikan.

If I drop Orikan, I would also drop the Ctan in a moment. I feel they are only useful together. I would LOVE those extra points, ill tell you. But at that point, the list is just a Scarab farm list, most likely with 2 surfboards. I am not convinced that tremor-crons as a build is weaker yet with just 4 games.

For guns on the spyders, 25 points is just too expensive. Also, I really enjoy running the spyders every turn, as they are my second wave assault units for moping up after the scarabs bust open all the vehicles.

In regards to scarabs, when you tried them did you have up to 7 spyders buffing them out? Those extra bases just demolish some units that normally could deal with 10 or so bases.

The Ctan's power I am convinced is swarm of spirit dust. The defensive grenades helped versus orks and sisters, and the 3+ cover helped versus the space wolves and GK. The GK player was really struggling to kill the Ctan with nightfighting for turns 1-3, and he survived to assault his land raider because I rolled 2 3's thanks to stealth. Sadly, I did not wreck the land raider, only stunned it with a 2 on the damage roll.

That said, if I were to drop the immotek/orikan/ctan/tremor/chrono combo I get 730 points. That is a lot of points...

It is a lot of points, sure, but the initial idea is that 4 quaketeks and a c'tan is a 400 point block that can be plugged in effectively to a shooting list. 2 phaerons and 2 pulseteks is another what, 330? Vs 390 for just immotekh and orikan.

4 quaketeks gives you coverage and the solar pulses don't impede shooting like immotekh does.

Realistically though, the barge lords are so good that it's a drag to build a list without them. So it's always a sacrifice for me to not play at least 1.

The real question is, immotekh aside, are we better off with two
Royal courts or one royal court and orikan?

As far as my experience with scarabs go, I love them as support units, but I don't like the giant scarab farm. Not because I don't think it's good, but because it takes the game out of your hands and it becomes a pure dice game.

Ok, I've started on my battle reports.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=posts&action=list&topic_id=431021&viewResults=true

First battle will probably be out tomorrow.

I just wanted to mention really quick, there was talk about tremor-crons being hard on the dice--aka lots of rolling on both sides.

I agree 100% with this. At least for my 4 games, the extra dice rolled are: night-fighting rolls with immotek to every unit wanting to shoot (friend and foe), extra terrain rolls, extra dangerous terrain rolls, random d6 lightning to every unit in the enemy force, night fighting continuation, orikan powerups, spawning spyder damage rolls, and the several hundred dice the scarabs put out in a combat phase.

The game has lots of timing specific rolls as well, requiring little breaks in the flow. I did ask my opponents several times if I had to roll all the attacks or if he would just pull the enemy. At first they said to roll them, later they just said the vehicles explode. So I guess it quickly got old.

I don't think you can argue the efficiency of making your opponent take dangerous terrain tests. A Space Marine shooting another space marine only has a 1/9 chance to kill them. A dangerous terrain test has a 1/6.
Granted... it will slow down games. You are supposed to take a roll, one at a time, for each model moving in/out/through dangerous terrain.

Man, I love this codex... so many options.

I'd like to touch back on the idea of deathmarks briefly. We're using at least one royal court, so the idea of throwing in a veil-tek is still an option. Immotekh himself is a phaeron, but if you don't take a veiltek the deathmarks can still take a night scythe as a dedicated transport. If you stick a Rezlord in with them, you have a unit of 24" Snipers attached to a highly resilient HQ, deploying pretty much wherever you want. If you don't wipe out their target squad you can always back them up with a Tremorstaff and keep them from being assaulted.

The deathmarks are a great anti-deathstar, thanks to the 2+ wounding option; and with a rezorb and immotekh in there they can weather a significant amount of return fire without too much difficulty. A tremorstave with them just reinforces their unnasailability (not to mention the 2+ wounding blast marker), or a Veil-tek makes them able to come at an opponent from any angle; using the phaeron to make it possible to fire at full range. even after moving.

Thoughts? I think it complements the immotekh list pretty well.

I understand you guys are looking to make lists with the WW-Tremorstaff combination here, but I think there are a few fundamental questions to answer (preferably through playtesting).

*put on my devil's advocate wig*

In terms of pure efficiency, it worth bringing the C'tan to the party especially without the first turn Orikan gimmick?

Are the tremorstaves alone worth inclusion or does the dangerous terrain test ability make or break them?

Also, are we trying to achieve a fullblown army archetype here or just a modular tactic for any Necron list?

I guess the biggest question is what in our codex benefits most from limiting our opponent's mobility?

I really like the idea of forcing dangerous terrain tests and I really like how anything that leaves the ground suffers against a WW C'tan. I just think in order to make this combination competitive we have to answer these questions to see if it makes the cut.

Let me give this a shot;

1. The C'tan itself should be employed in its entirety, not just as a delivery device for Writhing worldscape. It's a very resilient monstrous creature that is difficult to use effectively due to its limited movement speed. Pairing it with a Monolith seems to alleviate it's drawback, or using a high value secondary ability like Gaze, time's arrow, or grand illusion will give it an additional useful function so that it isn't just lurking in the back rank trying not to get shot. That being said, Orikan and WW C'Tan are a very nice combination, and together, the units can expend their usefulness in the early turns in the game and kamikazi into enemy ranks. I am of the opinion, at this stage, that the c'tan, supported by enough tremorstaves does not need orikan to be effective, but together, they are obviously more effective.

2. I have used tremorstaves in other lists before and found them handy tools to slow down advancing assault terminators and ork mobs. For 30 points, it's a handy tool in your kit. I'd use them without the c'tan if I wanted to keep a foot army at bay, the C'tan, however, makes them an actual weapon to be feared.

3. The initial objective was to create the perfect home for the tremor-crons tactic, a fully optimized build that could be competitive with the other top lists out there. Obviously you could plug tremor into another necron list with varying results, but building the perfect list around it is really the goal here.

4. I've been thinking about this alot, and I'm of two minds about it. First, units like Tomb Blades and Destroyers are highly mobile and excellent shooting units, by applying their superior mobility against a quake-hampered list, it becomes a massive disparity in tactical options. However, the quake mechanic also allows us to use slower units that normally get outmaneuvered, such as the monolith and c'tan to a fuller effectiveness by allowing them to 'gain' on slow moving enemies; in the middle, foot slogging troops that want to stay out of threat range while delivering a full payload of 24" fire (phaeron'd gauss, or walking tesla) will obviously always benefit from limited enemy mobility.

It's a tough call, but I'll go so far as to say it's always a good thing when you slow down enemy foot sloggers.

Thoughts on stormlord + tremorcons.

Since necrons have no ability to screw with reserves I see no reason to sit still in the dark and allow the stormlord free shots on my army for a turn. With any army I play the main plan is to go 2nd and full reserve, and plan B is to lose the roll to go seconds and full reserve even after the necron player chooses to go 2nd.

Since IMO the obvious thing to do is full reserve 50% of the time the stormlord won't have anything to shoot at for 2 turns, and half an army to shoot at on turn 3 after making 3 rolls to continue night fighting I am going to say the storm lords synergy with orikan is broken once the other side goes into reserves.

Scarab farms on the other hand like having 2 free turns of scarab production.

Schadenfreud - What army are you suggesting this strategy for? Normally a full reserve is a weakness, allowing the entire strength of the opposing army to focus on what few units you bring in from reserves (the daemon problem). But yes, if you've optimized your army to fight from reserve, than that might confound the build a little.

On average, you're only getting 50% of your army on the board on turn 2, vs. 100% of the necron force.

junk wrote:Schadenfreud - What army are you suggesting this strategy for? Normally a full reserve is a weakness, allowing the entire strength of the opposing army to focus on what few units you bring in from reserves (the daemon problem). But yes, if you've optimized your army to fight from reserve, than that might confound the build a little.

On average, you're only getting 50% of your army on the board on turn 2, vs. 100% of the necron force.

Yes, but crons have short range guns and are thus not ideal when the other side counters with a refused flank. I am just saying unless the crons are doing a scarab farm I think imotek is too expensive for what he does within a tremorstave list.

I'm not going to disagree with you there.
I'm pretty solid about Immotekh is an assault only HQ.

junk wrote:I'm not going to disagree with you there.
I'm pretty solid about Immotekh is an assault only HQ.

3 non power weapon attacks at S5 I2 is not good for a 225 point character. Imotekh does not assault or shoot well. All his points are for special abilities.

Tremor crons could survive of just Orikan, a C'tan, and tremor staves allowing them to buy a generic overlord with a warscythe for half the cost. Throw in tremor staves and solar pulses and the list would easily be as competitive as it would with the storm lord.

schadenfreude wrote:

junk wrote:I'm not going to disagree with you there.
I'm pretty solid about Immotekh is an assault only HQ.

3 non power weapon attacks at S5 I2 is not good for a 225 point character. Imotekh does not assault or shoot well. All his points are for special abilities.

Tremor crons could survive of just Orikan, a C'tan, and tremor staves allowing them to buy a generic overlord with a warscythe for half the cost. Throw in tremor staves and solar pulses and the list would easily be as competitive as it would with the storm lord.

What he means is that Imotekh is best used in an assault only LIST.
Night Fight lets you get close enough to do the damage, and the lightning breaks open transports nicely.

schadenfreude wrote:

junk wrote:I'm not going to disagree with you there.
I'm pretty solid about Immotekh is an assault only HQ.

3 non power weapon attacks at S5 I2 is not good for a 225 point character. Imotekh does not assault or shoot well. All his points are for special abilities.

Tremor crons could survive of just Orikan, a C'tan, and tremor staves allowing them to buy a generic overlord with a warscythe for half the cost. Throw in tremor staves and solar pulses and the list would easily be as competitive as it would with the storm lord.

Missed my point. He's an HQ meant for a CC Cron army. He still gets attached to some guns. Read through previous pages to see the reasoning laid out.

You pay for Immotekh in order to have the persistent night fight, the sieze roll, and the added gimmick of the thunderstorms.
Personally, I don't use immotekh, as I find he falls flat, but I'm not going to rule him out based on my preference. There's anecdotal evidence that supports his use in batreps, in other theoryhammer threads, and in several discussion in this thread.
The primary reason is to extend night fighting when paired with orikan and limited to a single royal court.

Most of the builds here that use immotekh have at least supported a small scarab farm. I dont think anyone is trying to shoehorn him into a long range shooting list.

Most scarab farm lists are assault heavy, but even then I wouldn't call crons an assault army. Crons imo do best in hybrid armies. I would reserve trems such as all assault armies to nids, orks, and deamons. I just don't see crons beating them in a head on assault (though deamons first wave would get hammered by dangerous terrain tests)

schadenfraud, I tried to answer most of these questions before for myself, nad am now doing some testing to bear out my ideas

In terms of pure efficiency, it worth bringing the C'tan to the party especially without the first turn Orikan gimmick?

Are the tremorstaves alone worth inclusion or does the dangerous terrain test ability make or break them?

Also, are we trying to achieve a fullblown army archetype here or just a modular tactic for any Necron list?

I guess the biggest question is what in our codex benefits most from limiting our opponent's mobility?

1: no, the ctan is not worth it without orikan. I find I would rather have praetorians than the ctan for 240+165 for orikan if I had to sub an elite cc unit, but I would take other stuff before that even. Its just the huge synergy you get with the 2 that makes it work.

2: tremorstaves alone are not worth it. However, in a different list the tremor-tek is awesome thanks to seismic crucible and harp of dissonance. I want to run a shooting royal court with 3 destro-crypteks, chronometron, and harp/crucible tek in a ghost ark for example. The chrono boosts the harp to allow a lot more pens, or if not needed allows you to reroll a damage result on one of your pens. That is an awesome shooting unit let me tell you, and with the tremor-tek's crucible and tremor staff you have some options for deathstars as well. Even if you dont run the shooting royal court, a tremor tek with crucible is awesome on your forward assault warrior block of 20, as you rapidfire whatever is closest while staying in cover. If alive, the enemy has to move in dangerous terrain thanks to the tremor tek, assault through dangerous terrain thanks to you being in terrain, and gets their distance reduced by d3.

3: I am trying to get a full blown archetype for tremor-crons by adding scarab farm to it. I will say that tremor-crons is not modular; you can't successfully drop it in to another necron list, as it likes HQ choices in the form of orikan and tremor teks. So for example, you cant drop tremor-crons into a dual surfboard list, as you dont have orikan. You also cant drop it into a destroyer lord/wraith deathstar list, as you dont have royal courts.

4: I have come to realize everything benefits from limiting our opponents mobility, just like everything benefits by limiting our opponents shooting. That said, the rest of your forces should be really focused on being as powerful/killy as possible, as you spent points already on limiting the enemy. So, for example, I like scarabs+spyders and wraiths. I also see the value in max anni barges or doom scythes. What ever your killing angle you decide, you need to maximize it or the points spent on tremor-crons weaken your killing potential too much in the mid-late game.