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The Grog wrote:[quote=ShadarLogoth
Right exactly, (well I tend to disagree with the "might be the only one where FO are really worth trying" part but I certainly agree this list highlights their advantages while minimising their weaknesses.

The problem with FO is simple. They have no mobility once on the table, yet they lack the fearless/stubborn needed to accept charges. Even a 20 strong unit of FO has a measurable chance of breaking on the charge to a number of strong yet common melee units, despite a good chance of winning in the end if they don't break that first round.

Thus you have to stay away from those units, which are often faster, while hunting units you can kill, which are just as fast or faster. Even a deepstrike doesn't fix the problem, as anything nearby can simply choose to run away and the FO will have a hard time catching them.

ShadarLogoth wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I tweaked it a bit and now I'm looking at something like this:

H-Q

Imotehk
Orikan
RC
Tremortek
Pulsetek
VoidTek

ELITES
C'Tan WW/LoF
C'Tan Gaze of Death/Entropic Strike
15 Flayed Ones

TROOPS
15 Warriors (VeilTek
5 Warriors (one tremortek)
5 Warriors (other pulsetek)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Monolith
Monolith

I decided eve with Imo I really wanted to guarantee at least two turns of NF, so the Pulsetek. Also with Orikan and Imo in the squad of warriors I figure 15 should be sufficient, plenty of soak wounds to get the badboys in CC, and 15 Gauss shots it right around prefect to stun lock something should the need arise.

So 60 points left...
4 Scarabs?
2 TremorTeks in their own court?
TS with a claw?

Not sure, but I really really like the way its looking on paper, gonna try to get a game in this weekend.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/02/03 14:29:25

Dark Eldar are very prevalent where I play so c'tan shards do not always see their maximum value in games. I do think if you have terrain that blocks LOS (which monoliths are good for in this list) it can help them survive vs splinter fire that much longer. I fear lance weapons, as well, though so i hate spending 200 points on an AV12 monolith.

Let us know how your playtesting goes with this list, though. As for the 60 points remaining, just beef up your warrior brick & grot squads. Since there are no Ghost Arks or Rez Orbs in those units they'll need the extra numbers to help keep them alive.

Yeah that was originally my goal when I was tweaking last night (that has a strange connotation to it doesn't it?)

Then I get stuck with that 60 point number when Warriors operate best in blocks of 65. Damn You GW!!!

So I could add 4 and have 8 worthless points /shakes fist.

Or I could upgrade the smaller squads to Immortals, and then add Gaze to one and reduce charge distance thingy to the other. I actually kinda dig that idea. Stick them in cover and pump out gauss shots and quake/lance with relative immunity from assaults.

I think we are headed off into too many directions. We need to focus on what the core of the list is and what it brings to the table.

Here is the core of Tremor-crons (which I don't like as a name, because it sounds like a convention for fans 80-90's B Sci-Fi Movies).

@ 2000 points:
C'tan w/WW +1 other power
4-5 Troop choices with Tremorteks

Is there anything else that we need to add as 'core'? Remember, we are trying to force our opponents into making bad decisions.

I like Anpu-adom's core suggestions. I think the next most important decision is whether or not to take Orikan.

He's a game changer that can dramatically impact how your opponent deploys and plays turn 1.

He is not an overlord, thus limiting us to one RC.

So we do have some decisions about our HQ.

Our options are:
Orikan
Imotehk
Surfboard Lord
Phaeron Lord

Orikan Pros:
Relatively cheap
Temporal Snares - forces many armies into a bad choice.

Cons:
No Royal court

Immotehk Pros:
The storm - powerful, but unreliable. I don't see this forcing my opponent into making a choice that they wouldn't normally choose.
Nightfighting - a measure of protection in the early turns
Royal Court

Cons:
Expensive
Nightfighting - limits our shooting

Surfboard Lord Pros
Reliable AT
Early threat
Relatively cheap
Royal Court

Cons:
None?

Phaeron Lord Pros
Makes troops better, much better
Relatively cheap
Royal Court

Cons:
None?


Anything I miss?

ShadarLogoth wrote:

True, but some times just getting their target to move is plenty sufficient. Long Fangs and Dev squads don't like having to move. Rifleman Dreadnoughts don't like getting tar pitted for the rest of the game but generally start at the board edge so don't have a whole lot of running options if you make a B line for them. Plus, if your moving and running, and they are just moving, you'll catch up to them. If you get them moving and running as well, well, again, they are not doing any damage anymore, plus they are now moving in the direction you want them to move, which is a win. There's this mindset out there that a unit has to be able to kill X points throughout the game to be worth taking, but good strategy has never rooted itself in such notions.

That being said, I certainly agree with you that slowing the opponent down makes them much easier to use effectively.

Spending 200+ points in FO to make 100+ points in Long Fangs run isn't really a victory. If you have a unit that kills their points, that's not just a victory because they killed their points but because they went off to do other stuff. Even if that other stuff was just dying to something else. Also, since the running unit isn't dead yet if one of those strong melee units comes and kills the FO all you have done is stall.

Sometimes stalling is all you need. Sometimes you can position FO to make many units run so 200 in FO make 300 points of stuff run. But these situations are less common than 'this unit killed it's weight', which is something the FO can't claim as often as the other options for their role.

How I wish they were troops.

The Grog wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

True, but some times just getting their target to move is plenty sufficient. Long Fangs and Dev squads don't like having to move. Rifleman Dreadnoughts don't like getting tar pitted for the rest of the game but generally start at the board edge so don't have a whole lot of running options if you make a B line for them. Plus, if your moving and running, and they are just moving, you'll catch up to them. If you get them moving and running as well, well, again, they are not doing any damage anymore, plus they are now moving in the direction you want them to move, which is a win. There's this mindset out there that a unit has to be able to kill X points throughout the game to be worth taking, but good strategy has never rooted itself in such notions.

That being said, I certainly agree with you that slowing the opponent down makes them much easier to use effectively.

Spending 200+ points in FO to make 100+ points in Long Fangs run isn't really a victory. If you have a unit that kills their points, that's not just a victory because they killed their points but because they went off to do other stuff. Even if that other stuff was just dying to something else. Also, since the running unit isn't dead yet if one of those strong melee units comes and kills the FO all you have done is stall.

Sometimes stalling is all you need. Sometimes you can position FO to make many units run so 200 in FO make 300 points of stuff run. But these situations are less common than 'this unit killed it's weight', which is something the FO can't claim as often as the other options for their role.

How I wish they were troops.

With there deployment options I would say if your not causing the latter to happen (300 pts run for 200 pts of FO) your doing it wrong. Every list has anti tank that isn't sparkling in CC, and if your opponent isn't clustering their anti tank that means they are separating it out in a way they will be further nullified by Night Fighting.

I don't mean to devolve in to tit for tat, but the point I'm trying to underline is the wide open deployment options for the FOs is there threat. Forcing your opponent to deal with them will always benefit the Cron General if used correctly. The only times my FOs have failed miserably is when I misjudged distance or did something to put them in and ineffective position, which of course sometimes is just bad luck, but no unit in the game is immune to bad luck. Like you mentioned earlier, their are some dedi assault units that can get the FOs to break assault before they've hung around long enough to win, while this is true, in a large squad its statistically unlikely. Just like a stray las cannon shot can knock out a 250 point LR. Statistically unlikely, but unlikely hoods make not a unit unviable.

The fact is you want them in assault, with what ever you can get them into assault with, even if its a "dedicated assault unit," because they themselves are a dedicated assault unit. They have contingency against power weapons (RP) a respectable base (4 S 4 T 4+ Sv) and an absurd amount of attacks for their point cost. Their only legitimate weakness is their speed, which if you make them threatening enough and your opponent chooses to attack them instead, has been effectively neutralised. (Also, going back to the topic at hand, WW list mitigates this weakness substantially).

The best reason I can see to use flayed ones in this build is because they WILL be able to catch enemies that have been quaked. The second best reason is because they have outflank, and further impact your opponent's deployment decisions, some synergy with orikan.

As far as HQ choices go, I see Imotekh and Orikan as the start of a good CC list. If you want a more shooty tremor-cron list, I would say two generic overlords.

The question comes... shooty or cc.

Shooty:
Strength of the codex
Gauss vehicle containment/ troops contribute directly to shooting
Less control over where your opponent moves.
Some armies outshoot us at range (tau, IG, some Marine builds)
Can use some under-utilized assets (Doomsday Ark, Stalker)

CC
Generally not strong
troop choices don't contribute CC well
Can use some under-utilized assets (Flayed Ones)

Alright, so lets optimize then for two variant builds and just hack them until we get it right.

An Orikan & Imotekh CC list at 2000
A double court shooting list at 2000.


Here's a jumping off point for a CC List - Kind of rough... probably needs some focus.

HQ:
Imotekh 225
Orikan 165
TremorTek 3 90
Rezlord 65
C'tan (Gaze, WW) 265
Monolith 200
10 Gaussmortals 170
2x5 Teslamortals 170
12 Wraiths (well kitted) 500
10 Scarabs 150

Here's how I see it -
Make a shooting blob with Imotekh, Orikan, the Rezlord, a stave, and 10 gaussmortals
Stick 2 more staves with Tesla mortals, use the monolith as a shield for advancing units that need to get inside NF range.
Ideally, on the turn NF ends, you're slamming into the enemy with healthy wraiths, scarabs, the c'tan and the spyder.
It's not mobile, it doesn't saturate with quake that well, but hopefully Orikan and Imotekh will score enough free kills to justify the expense of the c'tan.
I'll math it out eventually and see how it works statistically.



Who wants to open the bidding?

Junk, you wanna start on a CC build.
I'll jump on a double shooty list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's my thoughts on a 2k Shooty list

HQ
Necron Overlord, Phaeron, and Sempiternal Weave 125
Necron Overlord, Phaeron, and Sempiternal Weave 125
Royal Court #1
Harbinger of Destruction, Solar Pulse 55
Harbinger of Destruction 35
Harbinger of Transmogrification 30
Harbinger of Transmogrification 30
Royal Court #2
Harbinger of Destruction, Solar Pulse55
Harbinger of Destruction 35
Harbinger of Transmogrification 30
Harbinger of Transmogrification 30

Troops
5 Immortals w/gauss blaster 85
5 Immortals w/gauss blaster and Night Scythe 185
5 immortals w/tesla carbine and Night Scythe 185
5 Immortals w/tesla carbine and Night Scythe 185

Elite
C'tan Shard with Writhing Worldscape and Grand Illusion 260

Heavy Support
Monolith 200
Doomsday Ark 175
Doomsday Ark 175

Deployment:
The Phaeron Lords go with the gauss Immortals, along with 1 of each type of cryptek.
Tesla Immortals get one of each type of cryptek as well.
Deploy these units as far forward as practical, place objectives in or behind terrain. Pull them back by retreating or with the monolith as needed. Redeploy forward using Night Scythes if available.
Try and keep the Night scythes on the flanks, to minimize the fire that they take.
Redeploy Doomsday Arks with Grand Illusion if needed.
Hold Monolith and C'tan as a fall-back position. Deal with infiltrators and outflankers as needed.

Looks very nice, very delicate, but it's got sharp teeth.

Neither of us opted to use destroyers, A Barges, Tomb Blades, or death marks. I'm not sure if the monolith in your list is going to do as much as say a doom scythe or a third doomsday ark, but I think thats an issue playtesting will decide rather than theory hammer. I'd put money on the shooting quakers over the assaulting ones; because the assault list can be improved greatly by removing orikan and the c'tan and adding a destroyer lord with MSS, 2 more spyders, and 15 flayed ones.

My list is fragile... and that is a concern. A well placed blast template and some very good/bad dice rolls and I could lose a complete unit. I do wish that I could bring the Immortals to 10's, but there just aren't enough points for that if I want to include the Night Scythes.

The monolith isn't there for it's offensive punch (which it is quite a beast), but as a way to pull the bacon out of the fire and provide cover for the C'tan.

I went with Doomsday arks because of the Grand Illusion. If I dropped GI for another C'tan ability, the Doomsday arks would immediately change into Doom Scythes. 5 Scythes will provide quite the offensive punch.

Something else, I am dissatisfied with the double cryptek structure. If I pop a rhino (for example) I can't quake the occupants on the same turn with the same group of Immortals. That's frustrating. I do wonder if investing in some heavy destroyers might not be the way to go instead.

I resisted using Annibarges because I feel that my list needs something to reach out and smack ya. If they were fast, like a scythe or had a longer gun they would fit. But alas, it is not to be.

I would see Tombblades staying home to guard against infiltrators and outflankers. Really, the monolith and C'tan can serve that job just fine. If I feel the need for more guns, I could always pull an Immortal squad back there as well. Trying to play offensively with the Tombblades would mean giving up a Night scythe... I think I'd just rather have a Night Scythe.

As for the assaulty list, it really makes your opponent make some decisions (and most of them are bad). For example, in Dawn of War deployment, do you disembark your troops and HQ to avoid getting wiped out on terrian turn #1, and thus making yourself a better target for the lightning, or do you turtle up, or do you reserve everything, and come in piecemeal to get eating alive by scarabs, Spyders and wraiths and struggle to get to objectives? In that list, turn #1 is going to be a hell of a bad choice whatever way you look at it.

Would shooting a unit's Dedicated Transport while they're Embarked cause the Tremor effect?

junk wrote:


HQ:
Imotekh 225
Orikan 165
TremorTek 3 90
Rezlord 65 +MSS ? + WS ?
C'tan (Gaze, WW) 215 If we keep the monolith, I like Gaze. Without it, I like Grand Illusion or Thunderbolt
Monolith 200 I like the monolith for possible C'tan movement
10 Gaussmortals 170
2x5 Teslamortals 170 I would love to get a 3rd 5 man tesla squad in here
12 Wraiths (well kitted) 500 You can probably shave there down to 5 each w/ 4 WC (430-ish)
10 Scarabs 150
1 Spyder (for the extra 2" bump)

Maybe go 2 squads of Scarabs, 2 spiders, 1 wraith squad to free up points for 3rd Tesla Immortals?

Okay, so necron assault... it pretty much consists of
12 wraiths and 10 scarabs. So that's 650

Orikan, Immotekh and 3 quake-teks = 480
20 Immortals will cost us 340

The C'tan costs a minimum of 230 (my bad) Screw it, entropic strike, next...

We have 300 points left to get in and do some damage up front
15 flayed ones + 2 spyders?
A monolith and 2 Spyders?
Lose a Wraith and add 2 Doom Scythes?
Add 3 night scythes
Add 10 more Immortals, 2 quake teks, and a rezlord
Add 6 naked Spyders (or 4 with Particle Beamers)
Add 5 VB/PC Praetorians and 2 Spyders?
Add 5 Lychguard (included for completeness) and 2 spyders?
Add 10 deathmarks, a VODtek, and one QuakeTek?

junk wrote:Add 5 VB/PC Praetorians and 2 Spyders?

I feel like Praetorians just aren't good with their 1 attack until the next edition, when Assault Weapons (allegedly) give +1A on the charge. For now they just feel like a halfassed assault unit. 2 attacks if you remove their power weapon and good shooting attack, but we have Rending jump infantry already and they have 1 more Attack, Strength, and Wound, ignore cover, have crazy Invulnerable Saves, strike first...
I suppose you could be taking them mostly for the Entropic Strikes getting out there quickly, but I don't think they're worth it.
But then, perhaps I've missed something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anvildude wrote:Would shooting a unit's Dedicated Transport while they're Embarked cause the Tremor effect?

Only on the vehicle, I believe.

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anvildude wrote:Would shooting a unit's Dedicated Transport while they're Embarked cause the Tremor effect?

Only on the vehicle, I believe.

Oh I missed that question. No. You can't affect a unit inside a transport with any ability unless the ability specifically allows you to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:

junk wrote:Add 5 VB/PC Praetorians and 2 Spyders?

I feel like Praetorians just aren't good with their 1 attack until the next edition, when Assault Weapons (allegedly) give +1A on the charge. For now they just feel like a halfassed assault unit. 2 attacks if you remove their power weapon and good shooting attack, but we have Rending jump infantry already and they have 1 more Attack, Strength, and Wound, ignore cover, have crazy Invulnerable Saves, strike first...
I suppose you could be taking them mostly for the Entropic Strikes getting out there quickly, but I don't think they're worth it.
But then, perhaps I've missed something.

Nope, you've missed nothing. The reason to use Praetorians is because they are an elite choice rather than a fast attack choice. If I didn't think 10 scarabs was an auto-include, then I would just run 3x6 wraiths. With the VB+PC setup they get 3 rending entropic attacks on the charge, and 5 s6 shots leading into the charge; so they're not awful. They're not TH/SS termies, but they fit the build.

In this setup, with Orikan, quake staves, and Imotekh's night-light; theres a good chance that by the time you're ready to assault you won't be hitting full strength squads, you'll be closing in to wreck vehicles and finish off weakened units. Something that Praetorians are actually good at.

What I'd like to see is a full on Jump-Cron list, if anyone is feeling froggy. Double Destroyer Lords, Wraiths, Destroyers, and Praetorians, it seems like it could have potential - but I suppose that's for another thread.

My idea of a tremor-cron list is a fast, shooty one somewhat similar to that of Lukus' list. Shoot and immobilize the enemy and then get the hell out of dodge once they get close.


Necron Overlord - Mindshackles, Warscythe
Command Barge
4x Crypteks - 2x Lances, 1x Solar Pulse, 2x Tremorstaves

Necron Overlord - Mindshackles, Warscythe
Command Barge
4x Crypteks - 2x Lances, 1x Solar Pulse, 2x Tremorstaves

C'tan - Entropic Touch, Writhing Worldscape

5x Immortals - Tesla
Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Tesla
Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Tesla
Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Tesla

Annihilation Barge
Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe

2000

For counter-assault, I could use the c'tan, but there's really no need. Just get the hell out of there once enemies are within assault range.

For CC with Imotekh and Orikan, I like the idea of playing to their strengths and special abilities. You have a better than average chance of going 1st or stealing initiative. Turn 1, it will be dark and the opponent's mobility will be severely challenged. Turn 2, you can have a 75% chance of reserves coming in. What works here for teeth?

Wraiths
Scarabs
Monolith
Doom Scythe
Night Scythe

Much of the time these should start on the table, but having a large portion of your army able to deep strike adds potential flexibility. Even better, most of it can deep strike and then fire a big gun.

I Don't like the idea of more than 1 spyder per scarab squad unless we somehow fit in a 2nd monolith or give the C'tan a shooting attack.

Junk,
I really like the idea of trying out Flayed ones and a pair of spyders. I think that there are synergies with the rest of our list that we can't ignore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2k Hybrid (I don't have my codex with me, but I think the points are right)

HQ
Imotehk 225
Orikan 165
Royal Court #1
Harbinger of Transmogrification 30
Harbinger of Transmogrification 30
Harbinger of Transmogrification 30
Harbinger of Transmogrification 30

Troops
5 Immortals w/gauss blaster 85
5 Immortals w/tesla blaster and Night Scythe 185
5 immortals w/tesla carbine and Night Scythe 185
5 Immortals w/tesla carbine and Night Scythe 185

Fast Attack
2 heavy destroyers 120
2 heavy destroyers 120

Elite
C'tan Shard with Writhing Worldscape and Grand Illusion 260

Heavy Support
Doomscythe 175
Doomscythe 175
Total 2000

The change to 1 court was largely because you can't pop a transport and quake the unit on the same turn. Throwing in the heavy destroyers allows you to pop the transport first, and then quake it.

I was also under the (mistaken) impression that the quake lasted until the end of that players turn. It only happens in their next movement phase. We need to make sure that staying put is a bad option.

I think that Doomscythes and Imothek work well together. As far as seeing distance... you only need to see as far as the first marker (right?)

Grand Illusion might not be the power of choice for this list, but I'm at a loss for which one to choose.

Anpu-adom wrote:
Fast Attack
2 heavy destroyers 120
2 heavy destroyers 120

I think HDs will have more of a problem with seeing distance in nightfighting than Doom Scythes.

Wow, this thread seems to have really turned into something these last few weeks. Anyways, here's some of my thoughts:
I keep seeing alot of lists with Immortals in groups of five here, and my question is why not groups of ten? The way I see it, the Quake-lists are intended to bog the enemy down during their movement phase, but suppose at least one or two cc units do break through and go into assault. Since crons are not renowned for their cc capabilities, I would want to give the unit being assaulted more of a chance of survival, so they can at least keep that cc unit where it is. That being said, would it mess up the process if there were at least two Immortal units of ten models? To further expound upon this, has anyone ever considered the Storm-teks with Lightning fields at all, or is not as good in practice as in theory?
Also, to Anpu-Adom: I'm sure you've already checked this, but Destroyer Lords do not have the option of allowing a Royal Court. It's only Overlords and the named characters. Just a minor nit-pick, but I figure any bit of information would be helpful.

The main reason for the 5x immortal squads is to maximize quake-tek distribution, the goal being to quake as many squads as possible each turn.

If you're running 2 phaerons, than 2x10 Squads of gauss immortals become a very strong gunline choice, but you still need more infantry squads to house crypteks.

In a pure gunline list, ive had success with 5x8 immortals, 2xgauss and 3x tesla; but since we're dumping 800+ points into c'tan and royal courts, we just don't have the points to play that many immortals. Fast attack and heavy support are very important for necrons in any build, and we need to invest heavily into them to pull this build off.

I do think that the doom scythes work well with immotekh, especially if supported with tarpits like wraiths and scarabs to minimize return fire; but using doom scythes without splitting your opponents target priority is very risky as their close range means that return fire is a serious concern.

I'll stand behind my theory that scarabs and wraiths are the most 'dangerous' units we have access to, as they can deal well with almost any threat and guarantee that combat will extend beyond a single game turn, and if not win, then seriously weaken the squads they assault or multi assault.

As far as multiple spiders in my breakdown, if we're using immotekh, wE're not alpha striking, we're waiting a couple turns to engage, staying out of range and using various tricks to weaken our opponents while "aiming" our assaults. So using spiders to increase the swarm size isn't a one shot deal.

3 spyders over 3 turns will add 27 wounds to the squad.

foolishmortal wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:
Fast Attack
2 heavy destroyers 120
2 heavy destroyers 120

I think HDs will have more of a problem with seeing distance in nightfighting than Doom Scythes.

Generally, I agree. 21" is statistically average for seeing during Nightfighting (without some way to reroll). I don't expect thunderstorms and night fighting to last past the 2nd turn. If it does, it may well do the job of the HD's anyway! Besides... the Heavy Destroyers are replacing Lanceteks, who would have had the same difficulty. In general, I'm happy paying a 25 point premium on being 1s higher, on a more mobile platform, and being able to pop the tank before quaking the unit inside.

Grand illusion is one of the coolest powers in the game, it lets you redeploy for maximum damage potential, or the best possible defensive placement. You can place your scarabs or wraiths with a perfect line of attack to your opponents most vulnerable units, or get your soft targets out of harms way. It also screws with your opponent's ability to deploy reactively, giving ÿöú, if nothing else, a psychological edge. Also, it's one more reason for your opponent to play from reserves, which is great for a list that wants to take an enemy on piecemeal.

Thunderbolt is always an option, but at range 24" it encourages ÿöú to put your c'tan into a dangerous position. Gaze is incredibly expensive but is the best CC support option for the c'tan; making a risky move more attractive.

So superbowl weekend I ran a 1500pt "tremorcrons list" against Daemons and got tabled. It went 6 turns, was annihilation and dawn of war setup.

I used:
Orikan, Regular OverLord with warscythe on command barge for my hq's. ( Orikan alone and waiting to power up, Overlord to take out tanks and characters )

C'tan with writhing worldscape and grand illusion for my elite's.

3 units of Immortals with tesla carbines, 5 man strong each. ( this was for anti-infantry )

3 Crypteks with Tremorstaves that went to each of the 3 Immortal units. ( to synergise with writhing worldscape )

2 Crypteks with Eldritch Lances just being the Royal court alone. ( to blast tanks and special characters )

2 Heavy Destroyers. ( to blast tanks and characters )

5 Scarab bases. ( to tar pit, erode tanks, distract my opponent )

1 Doom Ark. ( to blast infantry as the slowly made there way to its corner.

Setting up I put the Doom ark in one corner and surround it with the rest of the army.

My opponent had a daemon prince, the lord of change, a bloodthirster, 2 blood letter units and a blood crusher unit.

The only thing that was destroyed from deep striking was the blood crushers. The Big-uns came in 1st. He lost a few wounds to his blood letters due to dangerous terrain tests and all of his big stuff just had amazing armour saves the whole game.

As I said I got tabled, but I did manage to kill one blood letter unit, one daemon prince, dropped one blood letter unit down to one, put 1 wound on the lord of change, and put 1 or 2 wounds on his bloodthirster.

Doom Ark did okay, the immortals with tesla dissapointed, so did the eldritch lances ( this may be due to the insane armour saves he was making ). The scarabs tar-pitted the lord for a good portion of the game. The C'tan fell to blood letters and the blood thirster, but he took out some blood letters. Orikan powered up one turn and lost it the next : (
so when I charged him he did okay. His re-roll does come in handy.

The command barge did jack and so did the overlord. Both smashed by the blood thirster.

In hindsight, I thought this list could have been saved had I took the time to use the rest of my points ( I used like 1390 points and then rushed to play ) for lords with res-orbs and mind shackle scarabs. I think ill take out Orikan to have 2 royal courts, take another reg. Overlord.

I didnt use Wraiths because I didnt have the models, but ill just proxy next time and test out the revised list. Hope this info helps.

I stand by avoiding immotekh in a shooting list, and avoiding destroyers in an assault list, as out best assault units are fa choices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Garukadon, I'd love to see the best 2 out of 3 results in that same match up; daemons are a tough match up because they're a decentralized assault army that fights from reserve. If you had your missing points, ÿöú probably would have had a better result... Thanks for the input!