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Hey, question about BAC- is the box (i.e. physical packaging) any good? Considering getting just the game contents and I'm wondering if the box is, like, durable, well organized, or anything like that, or is it just standard flimsy packaging?

Davor wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

Davor wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yikes... those are not cheap.

Two steps forward one step back? I mean if we complain about price, then we are not GW customer base, so then why go through all the hassles of making 40K/AoS affordable and making product cheaper without cutting prices. At least when releasing new product you can make them cheaper. So GW hasn't really changed much at all then.

Is this all just an illusion of change on GW part? Here I was having so much hope GW was changing for the better, but now I see it's same old same old when it comes to individual releases. So it's just basically back to normal now? Wow that didn't last long eh?

Did you really expect them to suddenly start selling these Horus Heresy marines for cheaper than they were selling standard 40k tactical marines?

Did you really expect them to start undercutting their clamp pack kits with their two character Calth sprue?

The MKIV marines aren't horrendously more expensive than the standard tactical set, but they are a lot cheaper than the resin forgeworld ones. A little perspective wouldn't go amiss.

The Cataphracti are a different matter on the other hand, that kit IS very expensive, even when compared to its FW counterpart, though you do have to get the weapons seperately.

I really don't think this shows a sudden return to "the bad old days" though. It's hardly like the start collecting kits, and other box sets that offer a collective discount have disappeared over night. It's clear the strategy is to offer a discount for buying things collectively, while things that are singular will be priced more expensively.

Yeah I really did. I guess seeing that Dreadnaught makes me think that it should only be $15 or $20 the most. That is one horrible looking mini. Was shocked to see that the terminators are $14 a mini. Are these not Forge World prices? I guess the only good thing is you don't need to pay for Forge World shipping. Maybe that is where the savings come in.

Thing is, I don't follow GW every move. I don't look at every nook and cranny on what GW does. I don't follow all these non sites that talk about GW and then "that is where you get GW finances or they said this or that". I just see they were expensive, then in January they seemed to take a change of direction, giving out great product and now back to the old ways.

So I am sorry I don't sleep, think GW and fallow GW 24 hours a day and know their every move to expect that this would be expected.

If I see a company change direction then all of a sudden they stop that direction, that is what I think. Geez we all have differing opinions. Some people live and breath GW so know exactly how they work. I don't. Sorry that GW doesn't direct my life and I didn't know.

Then I'm terribly sorry, but you're being a tad naive. It was clear as day that they weren't going to undercut themselves, the tac squad was always going to be around the £30 mark. I'm honestly suprised the Terminators are as much as they are, but the character set seems about right considering the price of clampacks these days and the fact that they were not going to undercut themselves.

As for the dreadnought, if you don't like the model, you don't really need to complain about its cost as you clearly won't be buying it, will you


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Hey, question about BAC- is the box (i.e. physical packaging) any good? Considering getting just the game contents and I'm wondering if the box is, like, durable, well organized, or anything like that, or is it just standard flimsy packaging?

The actual box is nice and thick. I haven't played the game, but the tiles dice and cards are of nice quality too.

As for the dreadnought, if you don't like the model, you don't really need to complain about its cost as you clearly won't be buying it, will you

Let's just shut this bs down from here on.

One does not have to intend to buy something to have an opinion on the value it offers. It's an argument as inane and childish as "if you don't like it, don't buy it."

Someone is just as entitled to feel it is overpriced if they were going to buy none of them as if they were going to buy 20.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Hey, question about BAC- is the box (i.e. physical packaging) any good? Considering getting just the game contents and I'm wondering if the box is, like, durable, well organized, or anything like that, or is it just standard flimsy packaging?

As has already been answered, the box is really solid. Good quality.
Also, the game---as well as most of their recent board games including Deathwatch Overkill---is very well done.
We've completed campaigns for B@C and DWOK and I've got nothing but good things to say about them both.
The new Warhammer Quest is also excellent.

Lost Patrol is the only board game release from their recent offerings that I've stayed away from.
Neither the minis nor the game play on that one grab me. But everything else since Execution Force has been great.

 Azreal13 wrote:

As for the dreadnought, if you don't like the model, you don't really need to complain about its cost as you clearly won't be buying it, will you

Let's just shut this bs down from here on.

One does not have to intend to buy something to have an opinion on the value it offers. It's an argument as inane and childish as "if you don't like it, don't buy it."

Someone is just as entitled to feel it is overpriced if they were going to buy nine of them as if they were going to buy 20.

God. Damn. Right.



Re: BAC box stuff, thanks for the info, all.

privateer, I think LP was terrible, I've actually got WHQ in the mail, BAC is incoming (decided just the rules since I've got to recognize enough is enough (power armor). DWOK... mostly just hesitant because I'll want it to be Space Hulk and I know it isn't, so my standards are probably too high to enjoy it...

 Azreal13 wrote:

As for the dreadnought, if you don't like the model, you don't really need to complain about its cost as you clearly won't be buying it, will you

Let's just shut this bs down from here on.

One does not have to intend to buy something to have an opinion on the value it offers. It's an argument as inane and childish as "if you don't like it, don't buy it."

Someone is just as entitled to feel it is overpriced if they were going to buy nine of them as if they were going to buy 20.

I find it no more childish and inane than people moaning and wailing about the price of something they have no intention of buying.

Expressing an opinion in a discussion forum is sorta the point of being here.

However, if one wishes to counter the opinion, I'd like to see a higher level of discourse than "nobody's making you buy it" or the equivalent.

Although, especially in the case of the Contemptor, I suspect there aren't any decent arguments to support the pricing and any defense is simply a knee jerk 'cause Gee Dubya response rather than any reasoned counterpoint.

 Azreal13 wrote:
To think that the asking price for a used product won't increase when the retail prices increases (or is codified in this case) is a little naive.

But that's the thing. The retail price hasn't actually changed, since BaC's pricing remains the same. Any kits being sold second hand comes from the BaC box, not from the individual kits.

A seller on the internet can ask whatever they want of course, but as long as the main price for actually obtaining these kits remain constant (until they chance the price of the BaC box, that one is RRP £95 regardless of whether GW charges £30 or £3000 for a box of MKIV marines) you can still make the same profit as you're used to, by selling the kits for the same price you are now and thus you are incentivized to undercut anyone who raise their prices because GW raised the price of a separate product.

All I know is, they still sell Knights separately even with Renegades in stores.

Not everyone wants to buy in bulk, buy more than they need, or buy second hand.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

As for the dreadnought, if you don't like the model, you don't really need to complain about its cost as you clearly won't be buying it, will you

Let's just shut this bs down from here on.

One does not have to intend to buy something to have an opinion on the value it offers. It's an argument as inane and childish as "if you don't like it, don't buy it."

Someone is just as entitled to feel it is overpriced if they were going to buy nine of them as if they were going to buy 20.

God. Damn. Right.



Re: BAC box stuff, thanks for the info, all.

privateer, I think LP was terrible, I've actually got WHQ in the mail, BAC is incoming (decided just the rules since I've got to recognize enough is enough (power armor). DWOK... mostly just hesitant because I'll want it to be Space Hulk and I know it isn't, so my standards are probably too high to enjoy it...

I own SH, too and DWOK is a strong contender.
Denying the other player maneuver room is key to strategy (as in if a section of gantry/grating is too small to allow a model to fit, it can't be moved there).
The SMs play almost as tough as the fluff and the first few missions are very easy for them.
As they get to the heart of the infested mine, the GSC slowly gain advantage until the final showdown mission.
If you get a chance to play it, I highly recommend giving it a go.

Back on topic, I think GW misstepped on this pricing scheme. I'm willing to continue my wait and see approach but they've done more positive in the past 6-8 months IMO.
They could have sold the tactical squads and termies for an extra $5 USD and done very well. Enough to compare it to buying an extra paint pot.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Expressing an opinion in a discussion forum is sorta the point of being here.

However, if one wishes to counter the opinion, I'd like to see a higher level of discourse than "nobody's making you buy it" or the equivalent.

Although, especially in the case of the Contemptor, I suspect there aren't any decent arguments to support the pricing and any defense is simply a knee jerk 'cause Gee Dubya response rather than any reasoned counterpoint.

I think the pricing of the Contemptor and Terminators is very simple to be honest. They don't want to undercut their forgeworld counterparts by too much.

The MKIV is a slightly different prospect as its a ten man squad that has a plastic equivilant sitting next to it on the shelf, whereas the Catphractii and the Contemptor look different enough from the Castraferrum Dreadnoughts and Standard Terminators to warrant people using a different pattern in Horus Heresy games.

At the end of the day, things aren't always as simple as "let's knock the prices out at £X" Betrayal at Calth was a pretty good deal, £95 got you a hell of a lot of minis. So when they came out in individual boxes it was always going to be a bit of a shock, wasn't it, and frankly it was always going to be a little underwhelming getting a load of stuff released that we already had. Though Dakka never ceases to amaze me with its ability to form an orderly queue of people willing to line up and acting shocked at GW doing exactly as expected.

@Azreal13 & General Kroll --

I would not pay the MSRP or even 25% discounted plastic contemptor, but only mostly because I have a bunch of them from buying too many BaC boxes.

If I hadn't, the plastic contemptor would actually be kind of attractive. It is more posable than people give it credit for -- it just requires a little bit of plastic surgery. Both the legs and the waist can be easily manipulated, with the only real issue being the knees not being jointed.

Having built both FW Contemptors and some GW plastics, I will say that the plastic one is MUCH easier to put together and clean up, even if you want to cut it up and repose it, and is much less troublesome than the resin. You don't have to deal with cruddy casts, not to mention potential FW headaches if you're not in the UK. And, of course, the arms are interchangeable, so you can use resin weapons if that's what you want.

Here's an example of mine, reposed -



The issue with just buying more BaC boxes is that you end up with WAY too many Mk4 space marines. I bought a ton of Calth, when they were US$90, so I'm not one to talk. In the end calculus, if I had just bought one or two Calth plus any extra models I needed instead of going nuts because of a good deal, would have spent a lot less. But then again, that's the story of my modelling life, lol.

I was really hoping the separate squads were going to be at the same price point at the 40k equvilant kit. It's like they stuck a extra $10 to all the kits prices. Super turn off. Good thing BaC is sticking around.

 Zywus wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
To think that the asking price for a used product won't increase when the retail prices increases (or is codified in this case) is a little naive.

But that's the thing. The retail price hasn't actually changed, since BaC's pricing remains the same. Any kits being sold second hand comes from the BaC box, not from the individual kits.

A seller on the internet can ask whatever they want of course, but as long as the main price for actually obtaining these kits remain constant (until they chance the price of the BaC box, that one is RRP £95 regardless of whether GW charges £30 or £3000 for a box of MKIV marines) you can still make the same profit as you're used to, by selling the kits for the same price you are now and thus you are incentivized to undercut anyone who raise their prices because GW raised the price of a separate product.

Here's the thing - the price you can obtain a product for bears little resemblance to what you sell it for. There could well be people out there splitting boxes they got at trade cost already, but strangely, they're not charging 40% less than the going rate are they?

By putting an RRP on the individual components of the set, they're changing the perception of the consumer as to what they're "worth" and the expectation of the retailer on what is achievable.

That's why there are auctions now on eBay uk with 15+ bids, hours to run and a current price of almost £30 plus shipping when a complete listings search shows the same thing available for £20-25 including shipping a week ago. Consumers will in future use the £40 RRP as the benchmark, and any savvy seller, commercial or private, will do little to disavow them if the notion.

 General Kroll wrote:
Did you really expect them to suddenly start selling these Horus Heresy marines for cheaper than they were selling standard 40k tactical marines?

Where did Davor say that he expected that? Maybe the same price as the current Tac squad.

 General Kroll wrote:
Did you really expect them to start undercutting their clamp pack kits with their two character Calth sprue?

It's ONE sprue. A single sprue. Cost it at 2 characters then.

 General Kroll wrote:
The MKIV marines aren't horrendously more expensive than the standard tactical set, but they are a lot cheaper than the resin forgeworld ones. A little perspective wouldn't go amiss.

Yes they are. They are significantly more expensive. They're 30% more expensive. For nothing. It's still 10 Marines with Bolters, a couple of weapon options, and a smattering of stuff for the Sergeant. It's just 10 Marines.

 General Kroll wrote:
The Cataphracti are a different matter on the other hand, that kit IS very expensive, even when compared to its FW counterpart, though you do have to get the weapons seperately.

That one's 55% more expensive than your standard Terminator kit.

And then there's the new Dread, a mono-pose Dread with 2 weapon options for 35% more than the standard Dread. It's not a complete like for like equivalent like the Tac Squad and the Termies, but still, that's a major price increase for what is, by current GW plastic standards, a very primitive mini. It is literally a box with one sprue and that is the opposite of value.

 General Kroll wrote:
I really don't think this shows a sudden return to "the bad old days" though. It's hardly like the start collecting kits, and other box sets that offer a collective discount have disappeared over night. It's clear the strategy is to offer a discount for buying things collectively, while things that are singular will be priced more expensively.

No one is saying that this represents a return to the bad old days. What we're saying is that this change for good is something of a facade, and hidden behind that facade is the same old bs that never went away.

The prices on these releases are absurd.

OMG the 3 Contemptors bundle is possibly one of the most ridiculous bundles ever.

I mean everyone wants a formation of literally identical models right?!

 SickSix wrote:
OMG the 3 Contemptors bundle is possibly one of the most ridiculous bundles ever.

I mean everyone wants a formation of literally identical models right?!

Unless you buy a Citadel (tm) Finesaw (tm)! Then they become a formation of slightly different looking models! And it's also conveniently sold on their website!

 Talys wrote:
@Azreal13 & General Kroll --

I would not pay the MSRP or even 25% discounted plastic contemptor, but only mostly because I have a bunch of them from buying too many BaC boxes.

If I hadn't, the plastic contemptor would actually be kind of attractive. It is more posable than people give it credit for -- it just requires a little bit of plastic surgery. Both the legs and the waist can be easily manipulated, with the only real issue being the knees not being jointed.

Having built both FW Contemptors and some GW plastics, I will say that the plastic one is MUCH easier to put together and clean up, even if you want to cut it up and repose it, and is much less troublesome than the resin. You don't have to deal with cruddy casts, not to mention potential FW headaches if you're not in the UK. And, of course, the arms are interchangeable, so you can use resin weapons if that's what you want.

Here's an example of mine, reposed -

Spoiler:

The issue with just buying more BaC boxes is that you end up with WAY too many Mk4 space marines. I bought a ton of Calth, when they were US$90, so I'm not one to talk. In the end calculus, if I had just bought one or two Calth plus any extra models I needed instead of going nuts because of a good deal, would have spent a lot less. But then again, that's the story of my modelling life, lol.

To be fair mate. You could make anything turn out really good. You've got oodles of talent. That Contemptor is the bomb...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Did you really expect them to suddenly start selling these Horus Heresy marines for cheaper than they were selling standard 40k tactical marines?

Where did Davor say that he expected that? Maybe the same price as the current Tac squad.

 General Kroll wrote:
Did you really expect them to start undercutting their clamp pack kits with their two character Calth sprue?

It's ONE sprue. A single sprue. Cost it at 2 characters then.

 General Kroll wrote:
The MKIV marines aren't horrendously more expensive than the standard tactical set, but they are a lot cheaper than the resin forgeworld ones. A little perspective wouldn't go amiss.

Yes they are. They are significantly more expensive. They're 30% more expensive. For nothing. It's still 10 Marines with Bolters, a couple of weapon options, and a smattering of stuff for the Sergeant. It's just 10 Marines.

 General Kroll wrote:
The Cataphracti are a different matter on the other hand, that kit IS very expensive, even when compared to its FW counterpart, though you do have to get the weapons seperately.

That one's 55% more expensive than your standard Terminator kit.

And then there's the new Dread, a mono-pose Dread with 2 weapon options for 35% more than the standard Dread. It's not a complete like for like equivalent like the Tac Squad and the Termies, but still, that's a major price increase for what is, by current GW plastic standards, a very primitive mini. It is literally a box with one sprue and that is the opposite of value.

 General Kroll wrote:
I really don't think this shows a sudden return to "the bad old days" though. It's hardly like the start collecting kits, and other box sets that offer a collective discount have disappeared over night. It's clear the strategy is to offer a discount for buying things collectively, while things that are singular will be priced more expensively.

No one is saying that this represents a return to the bad old days. What we're saying is that this change for good is something of a facade, and hidden behind that facade is the same old bs that never went away.

The prices on these releases are absurd.

Where did he say it? In his very next post...

You're screaming what I can only guess are Aussie percentages at me, as they don't match up to the British prices I'm going off. I'm sorry but frankly Australian prices have always been a freakish anomaly. I'm sorry that games workshop stuff is expensive for you guys, and continues to be, but the gist of this argument isn't one that should be twisted by an anomalous price.

Charging a £5 mark up on a box of MKIV armour is hardly a war crime, to quote doctor evil from Austin Powers, "It's the Diet Coke of evil, it's semi, evil, quasi evil, just one calorie."

Same with the dreadnought and the terminators, as I've already said above, absurd or not, they've got a forgeworld line that they need to protect first and foremost. Haven't we had info that the plastic HH stuff was primarily developed to ease the workload of FW? My guess is they couldn't really do a box game with just MKIV armour, the other stuff we got was just a bonus.

At least for now BaC is not discontinued



More WD photos including the datasheets

http://www.ozdestro.com/blog/glorious-mkiv-armour-finally-out-white-dwarf-128-review

 General Kroll wrote:
Where did he say it? In his very next post...

Saw that after I made my post. Expecting it to be cheaper is certainly naïve, but such increases don't make sense either.

 General Kroll wrote:
You're screaming what I can only guess are Aussie percentages at me, as they don't match up to the British prices I'm going off. I'm sorry but frankly Australian prices have always been a freakish anomaly. I'm sorry that games workshop stuff is expensive for you guys, and continues to be, but the gist of this argument isn't one that should be twisted by an anomalous price.

Charging a £5 mark up on a box of MKIV armour is hardly a war crime, to quote doctor evil from Austin Powers, "It's the Diet Coke of evil, it's semi, evil, quasi evil, just one calorie."

But why is it more expensive at all? It's a tactical squad. Why is this Tactical Squad more expensive that than tactical squad? It seems to be by sheer dint of being released after the other one? So GW's asinine policy of everything released next goes up 10%-30% for no fething reason continues? And we're in the 'good days' of GW now?

 General Kroll wrote:
Same with the dreadnought and the terminators, as I've already said above, absurd or not, they've got a forgeworld line that they need to protect first and foremost. Haven't we had info that the plastic HH stuff was primarily developed to ease the workload of FW? My guess is they couldn't really do a box game with just MKIV armour, the other stuff we got was just a bonus.

And yet they continue to undercut themselves with a boxed set that is more than half the price of its individual components. It does not make sense.

In Canadian dollars, it's pretty much buy three Mkivs and get a Dread, Termies and the characters for free.

The new Tactical spruces are jammed packed with more stuff on them than the current tactical box, no? Trade the Gravgun for a Heavy bolter, but get a bunch more bits? Not necessarily worth a ten dollar mark up, but still...

The Cataphractii trade the Assault Cannon and Cyclone Missile Launcher for ten lightning claws (or is it eight?) so a few extra bucks over standard termies isn't to crazy to me.

The Contemptor is pretty silly, though, considering it has less options than a Venerable or Standard dread box does (though at least it comes with its baseline weapon...)

I also don't understand all the bitching sbout the monopose contemptor when the boxnaughts are just as static.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I also don't understand all the bitching sbout the monopose contemptor when the boxnaughts are just as static.

Cant speak for others, but for me the Contemptor is such a huge missed opportunity. The design is perfect for a very poseable kit but for some reason they made one that is stuck in a static pose without some knife work. The box dreads have ankle and waist pivots and the venerable dread has the option for a poseable head. The only thing the plastic Contemptor has over the old dreads is the semi ball joints on the shoulder. Then on top of all that it only has two weapon options in the kit. That said its by no means a bad model and it looks decent enough painted up, but it could have been so much more.

 Crazyterran wrote:


I also don't understand all the bitching sbout the monopose contemptor when the boxnaughts are just as static.

I can't understand why anyone defends the contemptor as IMO all it requires is going to the the FW site + Using vision to see how terribly inadequate the mono-pose dreadnought is. The legs are by far the worst part (for instance).

I own two FW contemptors, and unless you are going to do some crazy stomping or leaping contemptor, most people did a pretty similiar pose.

Hell, I'm pretty sure people would consider the poses my contemptors are in pretty boring too.

There's nothing wrong with the contemptor really IMO. (as long as it's comparatlvely cheap)
It is however just ludicrous to say it's worth £35 when you can get a much better version from FW for little more.

And then claim that it doesn't matter it's monopose, because if you have a lot of time, skill, and tools; you can make it look different.
Why not respond to every complaint about price or look of a model with the fact that if you buy some milliput and GS, and know how to sculpt as a professional level, you can make whatever model you want for little cost?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Zywus wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
To think that the asking price for a used product won't increase when the retail prices increases (or is codified in this case) is a little naive.

But that's the thing. The retail price hasn't actually changed, since BaC's pricing remains the same. Any kits being sold second hand comes from the BaC box, not from the individual kits.

A seller on the internet can ask whatever they want of course, but as long as the main price for actually obtaining these kits remain constant (until they chance the price of the BaC box, that one is RRP £95 regardless of whether GW charges £30 or £3000 for a box of MKIV marines) you can still make the same profit as you're used to, by selling the kits for the same price you are now and thus you are incentivized to undercut anyone who raise their prices because GW raised the price of a separate product.

Here's the thing - the price you can obtain a product for bears little resemblance to what you sell it for. There could well be people out there splitting boxes they got at trade cost already, but strangely, they're not charging 40% less than the going rate are they?

By putting an RRP on the individual components of the set, they're changing the perception of the consumer as to what they're "worth" and the expectation of the retailer on what is achievable.

That's why there are auctions now on eBay uk with 15+ bids, hours to run and a current price of almost £30 plus shipping when a complete listings search shows the same thing available for £20-25 including shipping a week ago. Consumers will in future use the £40 RRP as the benchmark, and any savvy seller, commercial or private, will do little to disavow them if the notion.

Long term, the price you can obtain a product for absolutely impact the price you can sell it for, since if you don't sell it as cheap as you can while still making your required profit, then someone else can.

If the prices do rise across the board, then it suggest the customers are way more impressionable and ignorant of the actual value of these kits than what I imagined, but it looks like you may be right

Although if the prices do rise and stabilize, I might start to personally regularly buying BaC boxes to split and undercut those sellers by 10-20%. Would still net me a decent profit.

I've finally bought one of the last remaining Deathwatch sets from my LGS because I really like Genestealer cults and its obvious which way it's going if they get released individually.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I've finally bought one of the last remaining Deathwatch sets from my LGS because I really like Genestealer cults and its obvious which way it's going if they get released individually.

Aren't the sprues for the GSC and the Deathwatch squads a little more integrated, making individual releases a bit more difficult? I could be wrong though. All the bits sellers I've seen seem to have them all chopped up already.

To an extent yes, the 3 Cult characters are on a single sprue, with a couple of mixed Hybrid/Aberrant sprues and three Deathwatch Sprues.

So they could singly release a Deathwatch box, a Cult character box and a Hybrid/Aberrant/ Purestrain box.

Do we know if Blood Angels et al can use the Contemptors and Cataphractii Terminators yet?

the pricing makes a degree of sense when you consider that GW considers 30k to be their "botique line"as someone else noticed. FW prices are much higher, but there are people willing to pay em. so if GW is playing with pricing it makes sense that they'd slide the pricing of their horus heresy stuff up a little bit.

not saying I like it, but I can understand their thinking here.

The Sylvaneth stuff is pretty expensive as well as were the Ironjawz. Really no change on the price front.

It stops me from buying stuff I kinda want but don't need, though, like the BaC characters. I will stick to (big) boxes with "savings" an bits sites if the pricing stays at this level. Unless the pound drops below the €