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nosferatu1001 wrote:WEll, the chink tends to be Tactical marines. THeyre pretty poor.

Ya, so they just don't take 'em if they can avoid it. Unlike many other armies (like necrons) whose chink is...the only troops choice. LoL But really, even tac marines aren't THAT bad compared to other armies that take up the same FO slot as TM's. If you get what I'm saying. Either way, you can still stick 'em in a box and drive 'em around protected while blasting out the high str low AP weaponry.

Kevin949 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:WEll, the chink tends to be Tactical marines. THeyre pretty poor.

Ya, so they just don't take 'em if they can avoid it. Unlike many other armies (like necrons) whose chink is...the only troops choice. LoL But really, even tac marines aren't THAT bad compared to other armies that take up the same FO slot as TM's. If you get what I'm saying. Either way, you can still stick 'em in a box and drive 'em around protected while blasting out the high str low AP weaponry.

They're not bad, and the tactic above works well - their problem is that people are so used to them that they know how to deal with them and usually design at least part of their army to specifically to deal with Tac squads sat on an objective on the other side of the table.

Warriors on the other hand are very weak as there isn't really a reliable way of using them considering their high points costs, limited range of fire and vulnerability to sweeping advance (imo the most stupid illogical rule in 5th ed 40k, and I mostly play Marines!)

Im liking the sound of these rumors, even the C'tan as elites (although Im not sure how the fluff is going to look for this) but hopefully a big plastic C'tan kit with lot of options will be released if its true.

Darkjediben wrote:The gap between 4th and 5th edition was only 4 years, but the gap between 3rd and 4th was 6 years, and between 2nd and 3rd was 5 years. Why is everybody so gosh darn certain that 6th edition is ABSOLUTELY coming out in 2012? It's not like 5th has any glaring rules deficiencies that need to be addressed ASAP, and GW has put the kibosh on the advanced announcements and rumor mills. It bugs me that everyone sort of takes for granted that those rumors are 100% true.

Because they don't release new editions to fix "glaring rules deficiencies," they do it for the accompanying spike in sales. WFB was 2010, and a new 40K will almost certainly arrive in 2012.

Kevin949 wrote:
The issue is that marines have no weakness. Sure they don't necessarily have crazy powerful units (like a c'tan or something) but they just don't have a chink in their armor like other armies.

Plasma guns, melta guns, battlecannons, high initiative power weapons, large hordes, more elite units, darklances, monstrous creatures, etc etc

Marines are tougher than the average troop, yeah. However, they are far from invulnerable. Their weaknesses aren't quite as apparent as some other armies' weaknesses, but they also don't have quite as much strength. Your average vanilla Marine army doesn't do anything alarmingly well aside from survive, and there's plenty in the game that doesn't give a damn about that.

Congrats on getting the new codex!!!!

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:
The issue is that marines have no weakness. Sure they don't necessarily have crazy powerful units (like a c'tan or something) but they just don't have a chink in their armor like other armies.

Plasma guns, melta guns, battlecannons, high initiative power weapons, large hordes, more elite units, darklances, monstrous creatures, etc etc

Marines are tougher than the average troop, yeah. However, they are far from invulnerable. Their weaknesses aren't quite as apparent as some other armies' weaknesses, but they also don't have quite as much strength. Your average vanilla Marine army doesn't do anything alarmingly well aside from survive, and there's plenty in the game that doesn't give a damn about that.

So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Magtherion_Soulsaver wrote:Congrats on getting the new codex!!!!

What? lol.

cyberscape7 wrote:Is it just me, or is anyone else a little peeved that after all the rumours that have been discussed on this thread, dating back to several months ago, sisters are just popping up out of the blue?
I mean, it may be a WD codex, but its still a codex!#

And? Necrons are still the next full codex to be released. The Sisters update is just a Bandaid to fix the major differences between the Grey Knights book and the Witchhunters which have similar or same units that currently play totally different. Plus GW must wipe clean the taint of allied rules from the 40k system. Just can't have that apparently.

My guess is the sisters update will be less than spectacular, with no new models(aside from Finecast version of metal minis) and this would coincide with the second wave of finecast nicely, which does feature Inquisitor Karamazov.

Wow, seems I accidentally incited a new wave of Marine-hate... sorry about that guys...
I just got a little extra disappointed by the rumors...

Meh. It was bound to happen at some point

Grim - SA has been around since 3rd edition, and is entirely unchanged since 4th edition. AS in, the rule is WORD for WORD the same.

The reason everyone is hung up on it is the change to the break test taken in combat, which means that FINALLY combat isnt a sluggfest till one side is entirely dead - or near as makes no odds - like it was in 4th

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grim - SA has been around since 3rd edition, and is entirely unchanged since 4th edition. AS in, the rule is WORD for WORD the same.

The reason everyone is hung up on it is the change to the break test taken in combat, which means that FINALLY combat isnt a sluggfest till one side is entirely dead - or near as makes no odds - like it was in 4th

Fair enough, I only tinkered with 3rd and didn't play fourth at all - it's still a stupid illogical rule though, as if breaking from combat in terror means that the enemy can suddenly carve you all up regardless of your comparative numbers, armour etc I also don't like Fearless wounds - it's like they tried to think of a downside to a rule that shouldn't have a downside other than the inability to break from combat just because they'd handed it out like sweets.

And yes I am grumpy this morning

Grim.Badger wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grim - SA has been around since 3rd edition, and is entirely unchanged since 4th edition. AS in, the rule is WORD for WORD the same.

The reason everyone is hung up on it is the change to the break test taken in combat, which means that FINALLY combat isnt a sluggfest till one side is entirely dead - or near as makes no odds - like it was in 4th

Fair enough, I only tinkered with 3rd and didn't play fourth at all - it's still a stupid illogical rule though, as if breaking from combat in terror means that the enemy can suddenly carve you all up regardless of your comparative numbers, armour etc I also don't like Fearless wounds - it's like they tried to think of a downside to a rule that shouldn't have a downside other than the inability to break from combat just because they'd handed it out like sweets.

And yes I am grumpy this morning

Actually SA makes perfect sense and isn't illogical in the slightest, Fearless needed to be altered because of the ability to lock units in combat for an entire game. The problem was that putting the same downside from fearless onto ATSKNF without any additional nerf made it better than fearless and considering the ridiculous amount of SM players it's all the worse.

Grim - as the SA rule says, it doesnt represent you all being dead, necessarily, just so broken that you scatter and are unable to form a cohesive unit. There is PLENTY of examples of this happening IRL as well - once morale is gone to the point that you scatter, you are not an effective fighting force any longer. certainly not one that can be controlled by the player - hence the inability to control them, and their removal from the board.

However if its guard breaking from genestealers, then they probably have all been eaten....

Or worse...

Kevin949 wrote:So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Yeah, apothecaries are so broken seeing how you can only take one per captain you take in your army, and even then are part of an expensive yet small squad. Marines are good at everything and great at nothing. Likewise they're weak against almost everything but won't melt like butter to most things short of a battlecannon. Marines are by no stretch of the imagination unbalanced or overpowered or whatever else you want to tack on there. Notice how Codex: Space Marines doesn't top the tournaments, and never really has. I'll agree that units like TH/SS Terminators with 3++ saves are tough as nails and there isn't a great way to kill them aside from a stupid amount of fire. The whole point of the army is well rounded statlines on tough models. Their killing power is where they lose some steam. 200 points of Tactical Marines is seldom going to cause as much damage as 200 points of Orks or well-armed Guardsmen.

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Yeah, apothecaries are so broken seeing how you can only take one per captain you take in your army, and even then are part of an expensive yet small squad. Marines are good at everything and great at nothing. Likewise they're weak against almost everything but won't melt like butter to most things short of a battlecannon. Marines are by no stretch of the imagination unbalanced or overpowered or whatever else you want to tack on there. Notice how Codex: Space Marines doesn't top the tournaments, and never really has. I'll agree that units like TH/SS Terminators with 3++ saves are tough as nails and there isn't a great way to kill them aside from a stupid amount of fire. The whole point of the army is well rounded statlines on tough models. Their killing power is where they lose some steam. 200 points of Tactical Marines is seldom going to cause as much damage as 200 points of Orks or well-armed Guardsmen.

200 points will get you one eleven-man squad of Necron Warriors with 2 points left over. These Warriors easily die from being shot at, and are almost guaranteed to die from close combat. They are not fearless or have ATSKNF, but will retreat when it seems logical (That is written in the Necron special rules, but it's just fluff!!). Phase Out, a rule that would make any army suck, was bestowed to Necrons, and now haunts them. Best part is that you need to take these Warriors, as they are your only troop choice. They have we'll be back, sure, but in close combat they are more likely to be wiped out then and there, and with the fire power out now, their only saving grace is LD 10. Guass is useful, but it basically means I'm wishing for glances. Heck, Warriors are meant to hide in a corner or go for a point being well protected. Compared to Tactical marines, they cause no damage.

Sorry for the rant, but it angers me when I play my 3rd edition army, last codex came out 2002, and I hear people with 5th edition codexes complain about their army having all these weaknesses. Some of the most competitive armies are Space Marine/Marine ally armies, suck as Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, and Grey Knights. Sure you can argue they are weak and not amazing, but they are still better than the Necrons. How often do you see a Necron Player in a big tournament? very seldom. How often do they win? Idk, but I'm gonna say 1 out of every 200, and that's being reasonable, imo.

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Yeah, apothecaries are so broken seeing how you can only take one per captain you take in your army, and even then are part of an expensive yet small squad. Marines are good at everything and great at nothing. Likewise they're weak against almost everything but won't melt like butter to most things short of a battlecannon. Marines are by no stretch of the imagination unbalanced or overpowered or whatever else you want to tack on there. Notice how Codex: Space Marines doesn't top the tournaments, and never really has. I'll agree that units like TH/SS Terminators with 3++ saves are tough as nails and there isn't a great way to kill them aside from a stupid amount of fire. The whole point of the army is well rounded statlines on tough models. Their killing power is where they lose some steam. 200 points of Tactical Marines is seldom going to cause as much damage as 200 points of Orks or well-armed Guardsmen.

And the fact that Codex: Space Wolves doesn't have ANY FNP whatsoever angers me more.

Even if you did put 200 tac marines against 200 orks or 200 guardsmen the marines would still win. The Marines would be well-armed too.

The point is not that 'Marines are broken, omg'. The point is that marines are good at everything, with no major achilles heel. Most, if not all, other armies out there have some kind of detractor to balance the things they are good at.

Necrons- Phase Out, Gimped I , No vehicle support beyond the Lith. No Melta, Plasma, Grenades etc. High Pts cost, Single troop type that's a poor man's tac marine. Vicious weakness to Sweeping. No transports.

Benefit: WBB, Marine statline, barring low I, Gauss weapons. The arguably best tank in the game.


Nids - Synapse, Lousy armour saves (barring MC's, No Vehicles (to hide troops in), No melta, very little plasma, Very little good antitank

Benefit: Some big, high wound MC's, massed horde at low pts cost, A few good Psyker powers.


Tau- Lousy statlines, No squad special weapons, precious little melta and plasma, slow skimmers with poor weaponry, Pathetic CC ability, even from their CC specialists. BS 3 on a shooting specialist army.

Benefit: Railguns, shoot and scoot suits


Orks: Lousy armour, lousy Ld, No powerweapons (powerklaws yes, PW no), melta, plasma, few grenades, most vehicles are fragile, no reliable S9 ranged weapons, pathetic BS, Random psyker powers with 1 in 6 of killing the psyker, pathetic I,

Benefit- Low pts costs, T4, furious charge, mob rule, waagh, Some good but very random units like SAG, Lootas, Deffrollas.


Dark Eldar - Fragile as hell vehicles, No large blast weapons that aren't a oneshot (afaik), lousy armour, generally.

Benefit- Poisoned EVERYTHING, fast as hell vehicles, lots of lance/disintegrator fire. High I. Shadow field/Flickerfields.


Marines - (including all flavors)

Moderately high pts values.

Benefit: The best armour in the game, the best continuous invulnerable saves in the game, massive vehicle support for almost any need, the best tank in the game (arguably, toss up with the Monolith), Superior to average stats in every area, ATSKNF, The best psyker powers in the game, S 10 AP 2 blast templates (sometimes on a fast frame), Lots of good reliable antitank and anti-infantry, cheap, sturdy and self-repairing APCs, Melta and Plasma weapons galore. Effective assualt units, generally in jump packs to make them all the more effective. Ready power weapon/power fist availability. TH/SS granting 2+/3++ with ugly CC ability even against tanks, Drop Pods, Fast skimmers that are immune to Melta extra dice and can fire even when flat out (and can carry dreads, Venerable dreads, Infinite attack CC dreads that can kill a whole squad before they even get to swing back, Mephiston... Well you should get the general idea..

I've not covered the other races, as i've not personally played them, but it think you'll find that they also have some form of detractor to compensate for their good stuff.

ryanstartalker wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Yeah, apothecaries are so broken seeing how you can only take one per captain you take in your army, and even then are part of an expensive yet small squad. Marines are good at everything and great at nothing. Likewise they're weak against almost everything but won't melt like butter to most things short of a battlecannon. Marines are by no stretch of the imagination unbalanced or overpowered or whatever else you want to tack on there. Notice how Codex: Space Marines doesn't top the tournaments, and never really has. I'll agree that units like TH/SS Terminators with 3++ saves are tough as nails and there isn't a great way to kill them aside from a stupid amount of fire. The whole point of the army is well rounded statlines on tough models. Their killing power is where they lose some steam. 200 points of Tactical Marines is seldom going to cause as much damage as 200 points of Orks or well-armed Guardsmen.

And the fact that Codex: Space Wolves doesn't have ANY FNP whatsoever angers me more.

Lone Wolves.

Ascalam wrote:Even if you did put 200 tac marines against 200 orks or 200 guardsmen the marines would still win. The Marines would be well-armed too.

The point is not that 'Marines are broken, omg'. The point is that marines are good at everything, with no major achilles heel. Most, if not all, other armies out there have some kind of detractor to balance the things they are good at.

Necrons- Phase Out, Gimped I , No vehicle support beyond the Lith. No Melta, Plasma, Grenades etc. High Pts cost, Single troop type that's a poor man's tac marine. Vicious weakness to Sweeping. No transports.

Benefit: WBB, Marine statline, barring low I, Gauss weapons. The arguably best tank in the game.


Nids - Synapse, Lousy armour saves (barring MC's, No Vehicles (to hide troops in), No melta, very little plasma, Very little good antitank

Benefit: Some big, high wound MC's, massed horde at low pts cost, A few good Psyker powers.


Tau- Lousy statlines, No squad special weapons, precious little melta and plasma, slow skimmers with poor weaponry, Pathetic CC ability, even from their CC specialists. BS 3 on a shooting specialist army.

Benefit: Railguns, shoot and scoot suits


Orks: Lousy armour, lousy Ld, No powerweapons (powerklaws yes, PW no), melta, plasma, few grenades, most vehicles are fragile, no reliable S9 ranged weapons, pathetic BS, Random psyker powers with 1 in 6 of killing the psyker, pathetic I,

Benefit- Low pts costs, T4, furious charge, mob rule, waagh, Some good but very random units like SAG, Lootas, Deffrollas.


Dark Eldar - Fragile as hell vehicles, No large blast weapons that aren't a oneshot (afaik), lousy armour, generally.

Benefit- Poisoned EVERYTHING, fast as hell vehicles, lots of lance/disintegrator fire. High I. Shadow field/Flickerfields.


Marines - (including all flavors)

Moderately high pts values.

Benefit: The best armour in the game, the best continuous invulnerable saves in the game, massive vehicle support for almost any need, the best tank in the game (arguably, toss up with the Monolith), Superior to average stats in every area, ATSKNF, The best psyker powers in the game, S 10 AP 2 blast templates (sometimes on a fast frame), Lots of good reliable antitank and anti-infantry, cheap, sturdy and self-repairing APCs, Melta and Plasma weapons galore. Effective assualt units, generally in jump packs to make them all the more effective. Ready power weapon/power fist availability. TH/SS granting 2+/3++ with ugly CC ability even against tanks, Drop Pods, Fast skimmers that are immune to Melta extra dice and can fire even when flat out (and can carry dreads, Venerable dreads, Infinite attack CC dreads that can kill a whole squad before they even get to swing back, Mephiston... Well you should get the general idea..

I've not covered the other races, as i've not personally played them, but it think you'll find that they also have some form of detractor to compensate for their good stuff.

With a new codex coming out, I hope Matt Ward fixes those point costs. they're too damn high. I need to field more Space marines. Whoops, meant to say Space Ma-Necrons.

My Eldar Whoop-Chang Marines all the time. Sames as my old necron army did back at the beginning of 5th. Am I doing something wrong? Am I supposed to just lose when I see a Space Marine?

And I hate to tell you but Orks with their Massed Attacks could decimate 200 tac marines charge or no charge they still have way more attacks than you have 3+ saved rolls in CC. And most ork HQ can in fact take a power Weapon in the form of Burnas that can be used as a PW in CC.

Marines are tough I'll give you that. But their "Heel", so to speak, is that nothing they do is particularly spectacular when compared to the other armies specialist units. Also Tactical marines are a joke. Really! I have to take 10 Marines so that 4 of them can stand around a guy with a heavy weapon and the other 4 escort a melta gun around, Fantastic! I just love 180point flamers and meltas.

Necrons are good if you know how to play them, as is any army. Recently a good friend of mine whooped a GK player hard with his crons. So it really all depends on the player.

Alfhedil wrote:Necrons are good if you know how to play them, as is any army. Recently a good friend of mine whooped a GK player hard with his crons. So it really all depends on the player.

The argument is that Space Marines are great all around with all their bases covered equally, while the other races are amazing at one aspect and are atrocious at another. Anyone can win with any army and anyone can lose with any army. Luck and Skill are both necessary, but it helps having a well-rounded army good at most things when compared to an army with a high and a low.

The real problem, in my opinion, is people want the Necron Codex to come out, and thus complain.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grim - as the SA rule says, it doesnt represent you all being dead, necessarily, just so broken that you scatter and are unable to form a cohesive unit. There is PLENTY of examples of this happening IRL as well - once morale is gone to the point that you scatter, you are not an effective fighting force any longer. certainly not one that can be controlled by the player - hence the inability to control them, and their removal from the board.

However if its guard breaking from genestealers, then they probably have all been eaten....

Does not matter how it is represented in the game, the end result is exactly the same. Unless I was able to to do something to bring that "broken" unit back onto the board, it doesn't matter how it is represented.

Mr.Church13 wrote:My Eldar Whoop-Chang Marines all the time. Sames as my old necron army did back at the beginning of 5th. Am I doing something wrong? Am I supposed to just lose when I see a Space Marine?

And I hate to tell you but Orks with their Massed Attacks could decimate 200 tac marines charge or no charge they still have way more attacks than you have 3+ saved rolls in CC. And most ork HQ can in fact take a power Weapon in the form of Burnas that can be used as a PW in CC.

Marines are tough I'll give you that. But their "Heel", so to speak, is that nothing they do is particularly spectacular when compared to the other armies specialist units. Also Tactical marines are a joke. Really! I have to take 10 Marines so that 4 of them can stand around a guy with a heavy weapon and the other 4 escort a melta gun around, Fantastic! I just love 180point flamers and meltas.

I beat down Marines a fair bit too. It's not impossible. The fact remains that the do not have an exploitable flaw, like Synapse or Phase Out.

Even points orks vs marines, allowing for the fact that the marines will be carrying a flamer or two per unit to use on those orks before they hit combat, and will be in a metal box? Remember that force VS force isn't just about cc. Take shooting into account and the Marines have a decent edge, as few of those orks will make it to CC, and transporting them up cuts way down on those massed attacks.

Apparently you have a better codex than i do Wierdboyz can sometimes get a power weapon effect from their powers, but it's not reliable. Other than that only Big Meks get a burna option. Hardly 'most ork HQ's ' is it?

Any other army (barring Guard) have a 48'', S 9, AP 2 tank killer as standard hardware? How about tanks that can lob S 10 Ap 2 Large Blasts with a BS of 4? Not many armies can do that. How about tanks that mount multiple S 9, 48'' Ap 2 guns (some twinlinked, as if they needed to be..) ? Not so many of those around.

How about 2+ 3++ armoured troops with S 8 power weapons coming out of an AV 14 vehicle (all round) that counts as open topped when it comes to assaulting after a move, can multitarget two units and even fire and move if shaken and stunned. Any other army that can repair it's vehicles on a 2+ ? Any other army immune to being Swept (barring deamons), despite that fact their LD is lower than some other armies?

Yes, Tac marines aren't that great, compared to other marines. Now compare them to the base troops in other armies

You love 180 pt flamers and meltas? Good for you. I just adore 180 pt squads i'm required to take with NO flamers and meltas, or transports, grenades or hidden power-weapon/powerfists...

A squad of 30 boyz with shootas actually comes out better than ten marines shooting mathmatically. Plus you seem to be blinded by the fear of a simple 3+ save that you forget exactly how costly space marine equipment is when compared to other armies. You forget that for the so called weaknesses that you claim all the other races have that marines also suffer from lack of target saturation. Sure they may be tuff but if i only have to kill 30 or so of them im fine with that. And its very easy to pick out what needs to die when fighting marines.

I just dont see marines as the end all be all. They're fairly balanced in most repects and besides a few, super expensive mind you, shenanigans that the variants can pull off they arent that scary to most other races. (Well maybe the older codexes, but thats just a being dated thing not really a race as a whole kind of thing.)

Also i just started playing orks so forgive me on that one.

On topic though i really hope that this stuff is true about necrons. I'd love to pull these old fogeys out of storage and give them some personality.

Marines don't need target saturation like guard and orks, simply because there is less "more common" weaponry that will negate their save.

I.E. currently necrons have only 3 weapons that can negate a marines save in shooting (Not counting the Nightbringers ranged shot). One of them is on a vehicle, another on an HQ (and the tomb spyder if you opt for it), and the last is a horribly priced heavy choice unit.

Now pit a necron army against guard and see how many weapons will break through their armor save. All of them? Except maybe the few tougher models with a 4+ save so the warriors can't shoot 'em dead and bypass armor.

Or, for your sake, look at orks. Unless you take upgrades and pit elite choices against our troop choice, you still pretty much have every weapon breaking through an armor save.

Same is said against necrons, currently, I hear ya. Though not for long, with them supposedly going 4+ save. I'm just pointing something out. The marines "standard" is everyone else's elite/HQ/upgrade unit.

If you pit any of these armies against one another and not marines though, then you really have some variance and a good fight. But everyone, every single army that isn't a marine codex, suffers the same against a marine army.

A squad of 30 boyz will be footsloggiing across the battlefield under fire, with a 6+ save. You will not get all 30 into combat with another unit, or even into shooting range. They can outgun a marine squad of 10 with good rolls, but mathematically if they are within rapid-fire range the marines have the edge. Also marine guns can detonate trukks just fine, and ignore the ork armour, whereas ork shootas will lose 2/3 of the hits on marine armour.

I am aware of the cost of marine equipment. I mentioned them in my comment that they have moderately high points values per model. There are units out there that have higher points costs for worse statlines/equipment.

Marines are an elite force, true, but they can saturate the target better than many other armies, between vindicators, whirlwind and devestators for the heavy stuff massed bolt fires, heavy bolters, flamers and plasma/melta for anything else.

I don't consider Marines the be all and end all. GW seems to. They are markedly superior for the points that other troops, barring a few undereffective/overcosted units.

You will be fighting less marines at a point level than you would for most other armies, but that doesn't stop them from still being superior to the average in every way, with the advantages i listed above. You'd be fighting even less necrons than marines, for example, but there isn't really anyone who would claim a necron warrior is superior to a Marine. that i've met. Marines also don't just cease to be if you kill 3/4 of them.

It is easy to pick out what needs to die vs Marines, quite true. It generally is harder to kill it than to decide it needs to die, especially if you have no access to Lance weapons or long-range guns

You're forgiven. I would love orks to have more powerweapon access, but since you'll be going last anyway i guess a powerklaw makes more sense ...

Run your ork force at a marine force with a landraider crusader or two, then see if you don't think Marines are a PITA. I struggle vs my usual SW opponent with orks, though they are such a blast to play

I hope the rumors are true (well, most of them) as i play Necrons now, but 5th really stuck the boot in...