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Kurgash wrote:

ryanstartalker wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Yeah, apothecaries are so broken seeing how you can only take one per captain you take in your army, and even then are part of an expensive yet small squad. Marines are good at everything and great at nothing. Likewise they're weak against almost everything but won't melt like butter to most things short of a battlecannon. Marines are by no stretch of the imagination unbalanced or overpowered or whatever else you want to tack on there. Notice how Codex: Space Marines doesn't top the tournaments, and never really has. I'll agree that units like TH/SS Terminators with 3++ saves are tough as nails and there isn't a great way to kill them aside from a stupid amount of fire. The whole point of the army is well rounded statlines on tough models. Their killing power is where they lose some steam. 200 points of Tactical Marines is seldom going to cause as much damage as 200 points of Orks or well-armed Guardsmen.

And the fact that Codex: Space Wolves doesn't have ANY FNP whatsoever angers me more.

Lone Wolves.

Which would count towards personal equipment that is nothing near what other armies call "FNP"...

ryanstartalker wrote:
Which would count towards personal equipment that is nothing near what other armies call "FNP"...

omg! a space marine doesnt have fnp! an army has something over sm's! omg, rewrite the codex! now

wow whats with all the sm hate. Especially vanillia sm, yes they do not have any clear weakness other than cost and effectiveness at any particular role (barring certain units) but they aren't that great. Yes necrons will loose often/everytime to TH/SS termies unless we have a C'tan and we really do not like blood angels near army wide FNP. But they are not the worse thing in the world. We also hate twin linked railguns, an army of poison shots that can kill our C'tan/warriors pretty quickly. Strong breezes (as long as they are assault oriented )

Also have to get up at 3:30 tomorrow, so maybe grumpy over that. Sorry ya'll

tiekwando wrote:wow whats with all the sm hate. Especially vanillia sm, yes they do not have any clear weakness other than cost and effectiveness at any particular role (barring certain units) but they aren't that great. Yes necrons will loose often/everytime to TH/SS termies unless we have a C'tan and we really do not like blood angels near army wide FNP. But they are not the worse thing in the world. We also hate twin linked railguns, an army of poison shots that can kill our C'tan/warriors pretty quickly. Strong breezes (as long as they are assault oriented )

Also have to get up at 3:30 tomorrow, so maybe grumpy over that. Sorry ya'll

i dont hate space marines, i play ba. i just hate arguments of "they have X ability so i need it too" or " they have X ability so i need Y to counter it". this is my defence of my last post.

ryanstartalker wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

ryanstartalker wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So, the same thing that every other army is weak to they're weak to as well? Clever. Except for the models that get inv saves (3+ in some cases). And the inclusion of FNP in one fashion or another (Apothecary or Sanguinary). They're extremely well rounded stat wise with the best saves you can get and some of the best weaponry with a massive amount of options for pretty much every unit in the codex. Fast, versatile, immune to the most detrimental rules and the only instances of weaknesses you give are what every army is weak to.

Yeah, apothecaries are so broken seeing how you can only take one per captain you take in your army, and even then are part of an expensive yet small squad. Marines are good at everything and great at nothing. Likewise they're weak against almost everything but won't melt like butter to most things short of a battlecannon. Marines are by no stretch of the imagination unbalanced or overpowered or whatever else you want to tack on there. Notice how Codex: Space Marines doesn't top the tournaments, and never really has. I'll agree that units like TH/SS Terminators with 3++ saves are tough as nails and there isn't a great way to kill them aside from a stupid amount of fire. The whole point of the army is well rounded statlines on tough models. Their killing power is where they lose some steam. 200 points of Tactical Marines is seldom going to cause as much damage as 200 points of Orks or well-armed Guardsmen.

And the fact that Codex: Space Wolves doesn't have ANY FNP whatsoever angers me more.

Lone Wolves.

Which would count towards personal equipment that is nothing near what other armies call "FNP"...

Lol wut? You said SW have no FnP. I gave you a unit that does. Where does that fall in personal equipment?

If the necrons are no longer under the C'tans thumb things must have really changed! So the fluff for that must be wierd and wonderful!

I heard a rumor saying there will be big "Titan" like C'tan for Apocolypse though which would be awesome!

The fluff... is everyone's worst nightmare for now, given the fact we know who is writing the codex...
And, excuse me, but what was that about Vampire Counts second wave in August? Does that have any chance of pushing back Necrons even more? I mean, after SoB now there are other armies popping up in line in front of our metal friends?

Dark Eldar....Necrons..Dark Eldar..Necrons...Dark Necrons...Wait..

Kurgash wrote:Lol wut? You said SW have no FnP. I gave you a unit that does. Where does that fall in personal equipment?

Sorry if I'm not clear enough; it's just that FnP works in a much larger scale in any other armies that indeed have FnP than SW's does. Lone Wolves. Do you really fill your elite slots with these individual fighters when there're Wolf Scouts to take?

angelshade00 wrote:And, excuse me, but what was that about Vampire Counts second wave in August? Does that have any chance of pushing back Necrons even more? I mean, after SoB now there are other armies popping up in line in front of our metal friends?

Considering that the White Dwarf page clearly states that the Sisters Dwarfdex and the Vampire Counts Second Wave material are being released at the same time, no, it doesn't have a realistic chance of "pushing the Necrons back" (though it's highly arguable whether or not they were ever planned for an August release in the first place).

Dats true. Still annoying

All I have to say is I'd rather wait until October/November for a full codex than get a WD dex in July/August.

FalkorsRaiders wrote:All I have to say is I'd rather wait until October/November for a full codex than get a WD dex in July/August.

+1. I'd rather buy a codex and models in November than buy 2 issues of WD over 2 months, not get models, and expect a long wait till the actual codex.

The WD codex wouldn't effect the timing of a real codex at all however.

Mar wrote:The WD codex wouldn't effect the timing of a real codex at all however.

But its existence implies that the real thing will be a while coming. The WD codex doesn't literally effect it, but it lets us know we've got a wait ahead of us.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Mar wrote:The WD codex wouldn't effect the timing of a real codex at all however.

But its existence implies that the real thing will be a while coming. The WD codex doesn't literally effect it, but it lets us know we've got a wait ahead of us.

I don't think WD impacts the releases of codexes, but I believe that GW wouldn't release both very close, and would leave a month or two between releases. Besides, with all the talk on the Sister's threads, do you think they'd rather have a WD release, or a full-fledged release? I'm just glad that the rumors only say Necrons will get a full update.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Mar wrote:The WD codex wouldn't effect the timing of a real codex at all however.

But its existence implies that the real thing will be a while coming. The WD codex doesn't literally effect it, but it lets us know we've got a wait ahead of us.

If nothing else, it pushes back the WD where they focus on the Necron release. Sisters in August and Septemeber's WD, the earliest we'd have a focus on Necrons would be October. With Ogre Kingdoms supposed to get an army book release about that time too... well. Seems more likely that October's WD will be Ogres and November will be Necrons.

That is unless people think that they'll fit a codex AND a intro section into the same issue. Since it is their only way of hyping the new releases, I doubt that they'll double up like that.

Some caveats, I have never bought a WD, and have thumbed through only a couple. What is common sense to me may not be common sense to you or GW. GW hasn't been making business decisions that follow 'conventional wisdom' recently, either.

ryanstartalker wrote:

Kurgash wrote:Lone Wolves.

Which would count towards personal equipment that is nothing near what other armies call "FNP"...

I don't think he means the Fenrisian Wolves characters can take as pets, but rather the Elite characters called "Lone Wolves", Marines which wander the battlefield alone looking for a glorious death. And with FNP.

Edit: nevermind, thought you had misunderstood what he was talking about, saw the clarification after.

SkaerKrow wrote:

angelshade00 wrote:And, excuse me, but what was that about Vampire Counts second wave in August? Does that have any chance of pushing back Necrons even more? I mean, after SoB now there are other armies popping up in line in front of our metal friends?

Considering that the White Dwarf page clearly states that the Sisters Dwarfdex and the Vampire Counts Second Wave material are being released at the same time, no, it doesn't have a realistic chance of "pushing the Necrons back" (though it's highly arguable whether or not they were ever planned for an August release in the first place).

You have a point, this is after all the news & rumors section, so anything, even Necrons are still rumors. But still, it is annoying. How much longer to wait I wonder...

Indeed Necrons for November at the earliest and do not forget the rumours that believed Necrons to be pushed back to next year.

Edit: also I read somewhere the rumour that no more 40k armies for this year also would fit this possibility.

Mar wrote:Edit: also I read somewhere the rumour that no more 40k armies for this year also would fit this possibility.

I find that rumor most..... displeasing.

Mar wrote:Also I read somewhere the rumour that no more 40k armies for this year also would fit this possibility.

Then fires and brimstone shall reign upon Nottingham, and the minions of the damned shall claim their souls for the throne of the infernal demons of Hell.

Or I'll be slightly annoyed, pot-ay-toe pot-ah-toe.

angelshade00 wrote: But still, it is annoying. How much longer to wait I wonder...

Oh, I agree. It would be nice if Games Workshop made Necrons, perhaps the army bludgeoned the hardest by the changes in 5th Edition, more of a priority.

Mar wrote:Edit: also I read somewhere the rumour that no more 40k armies for this year also would fit this possibility.

I don't find that rumor to be at all credible. GW wouldn't go six months without a major Warhammer 40k release. They have to keep profits up, and when it comes to sales (this statement is only about sales numbers, not about the games themselves!), 40k apparently tramples Warhammer Fantasy.

SkaerKrow wrote:

angelshade00 wrote: But still, it is annoying. How much longer to wait I wonder...

Oh, I agree. It would be nice if Games Workshop made Necrons, perhaps the army bludgeoned the hardest by the changes in 5th Edition, more of a priority.

Mar wrote:Edit: also I read somewhere the rumour that no more 40k armies for this year also would fit this possibility.

I don't find that rumor to be at all credible. GW wouldn't go six months without a major Warhammer 40k release. They have to keep profits up, and when it comes to sales (this statement is only about sales numbers, not about the games themselves!), 40k apparently tramples Warhammer Fantasy.

I completely agree a logical argument but then you have the argument of how logical GW are. Here is hoping for november I think.

angelshade00 wrote:The fluff... is everyone's worst nightmare for now, given the fact we know who is writing the codex...
And, excuse me, but what was that about Vampire Counts second wave in August? Does that have any chance of pushing back Necrons even more? I mean, after SoB now there are other armies popping up in line in front of our metal friends?

<click> "POW!!!" < ring ring ring> "hello 911, yeah my husband just shot himself in the face over some stupid game..."

ryanstartalker wrote:

Kurgash wrote:Lol wut? You said SW have no FnP. I gave you a unit that does. Where does that fall in personal equipment?

Sorry if I'm not clear enough; it's just that FnP works in a much larger scale in any other armies that indeed have FnP than SW's does. Lone Wolves. Do you really fill your elite slots with these individual fighters when there're Wolf Scouts to take?

again, so what? you dont have fnp. so does my eldar army. and my tau i used to run if i remember correctly. personally i dont want every army to have all the same rules as everyone else, it loses variety.

Wow I am extremely dissappointed...

Having Necron (were my first and still favorite until this upcoming release I suspect), Tyranid, Eldar and Space Wolve armies the 3+ armor save and monolith's ability to pull them out of close combat (and give additional WBB roll) are the only things that made Necron's competitive at all... As often as I fail the 4+ WBB (far, far, far, far more than I make it) With the proliferation of vehicles and jump troops that close the gaps rapidly and get units into assault in 1-2nd turn makes the Necrons, if their rules end up matching this thread, WEAKER than they are with their current codex...

You can dress up a pig with lots of pretty fluff, but it's still a pig.

Clearly GW still just says a big FU to the non-human armies and players...

Here is the golden rule for non-human armies, buy them because you enjoy the models, but don't expect them to be competitive against IG/Space Wolves on a regular basis. Sure anyone can beat anyone on any given day, but when the luck, skill and tactics are all equal the non-humans will lose every time. My 'nids do win, though not as often as my ancient Necrons (sad that Necrons at present are a far better army than current codex 'Nids, but it looks like they will fix that oversight and make them as bad as 'Nids), but I want to feel like I have a chance in every game it's still all about Space Marines, IG, etc...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a such a slap in the face. People should be pissed. With a 2 Initiative 4+ at 12 points they are still OVER PRICED if you are locked into taking 10+ as before. Since there is a Space Marine army that pretty much is entirely with FNP you can't say the 5+ new WBB makes up for the armor drop.

Because they are going to get WIPED every time in close combat you need to be able to take SMALLER SQUADS, e.g. space marines & fire warriors have a 5 minimum, so you can split them up and keep your troops alive longer. Losing close combat went from 90% of the time to now 99% of the time...

Also with Wraiths and Flayed One didn't get any sort of Power Weapon or Rending option they might as well just remove them from the codex.



"13) Necron Warriors have the same basic statline they had before except they now have a 4+ save. Now before you go crazy, also note that their points cost is 12 points, which is a 1/3 price drop (down from 18 points). That means you get 1/3 more Warrior models in the army for the same amount of points...it also makes losing an entire unit due to sweeping advance, not nearly as painful.

I know a lot of cynical people will hate this and accuse GW from simply making the change to sell more Warrior models, and you could be right. But personally I was always hoping they were going to make Necron Warriors not quite as tough and dump the points cost on them, so you could really take a ton of them...given in my mind they are supposed to be more like a shambling horde of undead robots than some sort of small elite force of super-warriors (but that could just be me).

So this change alone totally changes the army from out of the 'MEQ' umbrella and makes their base statline unique in the game (which is good, IMHO). "

KarlPedder wrote:Actually SA makes perfect sense and isn't illogical in the slightest, Fearless needed to be altered because of the ability to lock units in combat for an entire game. The problem was that putting the same downside from fearless onto ATSKNF without any additional nerf made it better than fearless and considering the ridiculous amount of SM players it's all the worse.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grim - as the SA rule says, it doesnt represent you all being dead, necessarily, just so broken that you scatter and are unable to form a cohesive unit. There is PLENTY of examples of this happening IRL as well - once morale is gone to the point that you scatter, you are not an effective fighting force any longer. certainly not one that can be controlled by the player - hence the inability to control them, and their removal from the board.

However if its guard breaking from genestealers, then they probably have all been eaten....

And that's fine for representing Boyz, maybe IG Infantry etc but it shouldn't be the "normal" way for trained professional soldiers to react when losing combat - from my limited point of view having never actually had to fight for my life - for example should Necron Warriors, IG Storm Troopers or Chaos Space Marines be wiped out in combat in this way? Hell no! ATSKNF, or an equivalent, should be the norm and therefore reflected in the main rulebook and not just one single army type (loyalist MEQ).
I would say that you should then have a "Fearfull" sort of rule for lesser combatants and probably two types of Fearless to reflect the difference between Bezerker type fearless units and Mindless type fearless units which do whatever their master tells them regardless of the personnal consequences.

Gauss Nerf too! Space Marines have missle launchers and twin linked las cannons. DEldar get a Dark Lances and Disintegrators and POISON. Tau, well they get their entire Codex. IG, yeah we know how much high STR weaponry they have. Tyranids have poison. Essentially every codex has Monstrous Creature killing cheese, Necron's had a 6+ poison essentially, that's effectively what Gauss was. Ok it was poison that worked on vehicles, but poison non-the-less. Now? Ok it will still work on vehicles, but monstrous creatures will really, really tough to kill now... It sounds like they are watering down those few parts of the Necron codex that were effective.

At least I started a Space Wolves army so I can remain competitive, because clearly the Necrons are going down to bottom of the barrel...

Tampa - erm, you havent seen the codex. These are rumours. Sky is falling doom laden posts are about the least sensible reactions to any of this.

You only wounded monstrous creatures on 6s previous, assuming they were toughness 5+. You realise this makes NO difference to you excpet for the ONE SINGLE T8 MC in the game? Sheesh, talk about overracting bout a change which has an incredibly limited practical effect.

Also:I assume you missed space clown circus and their raping of the game for 18 months? Monstermash? JSJ Tau? Non-marine armies have all had their time in the spotlight, get over yourself.

Grim - so you should have no SA effectively then? Its what your post boils down to.