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Ok having been in the Marine Corp this comment about SA is ridiculous. There are dozens of Medal of Honor, Silver Star medal holders who single handily held back or defeated larger forces or rallied a broken squad turning defeat into victory. SA is by far the worst rule in the game.

I have lost a full squad of 20 necrons after taking only 1 wound, so 19 to SA, because i happen to have rulled a 10 (10-1=9) on a leadership test, followed by a 4 (for an 6) while the SM rolled a mere 2 or 3. Unit gone 360 points unit wiped for taking one wound from a 5 man tactical marine squad that probably cost about 125 or so with gear. If that had happened only once I'd be ecstatic, but no it happens in every game. I've lost unwounded Necron Lords with Destroyer Bodies, Warscythes and Res Orbs to this stupid rule too many times to count...


Then again the Assault rules in 40k are all stupid. Here's an example of how f'ing slowed it is. This is a true story of what happened in a tournament I was playing: Swarm Lord with 1 remaining Tyrant Guard with Lash Whips were annhiliating everything that was dumb enough to get close to them. However, a clever player assaults with a 10 man squad of basic tactical marines, they string out enough to Multi-assault a squad of Termigants that had been acting as a "moving cover save" for the Swarmlord (due to this Infantry Tyrant Guards) and I had moved the Termigants back (at least 6") once the Swarmlord got his business on obliterating Terminators and the Chapter Master. So ok this squad of basic marines, not even assault marines, multi-assaults the termigants and the Swarm Lord (who was in base contact with a remaining Terminator that he obiliterated). They put as many attacks as possible on the Termigants. I had to make 9 Fearless Saves, needless to say a punk squad of tactical marines did what 2 5 man term squads, a chapter commander and an apothecary could not... That's just ridiculous...

Grim.Badger wrote:

KarlPedder wrote:Actually SA makes perfect sense and isn't illogical in the slightest, Fearless needed to be altered because of the ability to lock units in combat for an entire game. The problem was that putting the same downside from fearless onto ATSKNF without any additional nerf made it better than fearless and considering the ridiculous amount of SM players it's all the worse.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Grim - as the SA rule says, it doesnt represent you all being dead, necessarily, just so broken that you scatter and are unable to form a cohesive unit. There is PLENTY of examples of this happening IRL as well - once morale is gone to the point that you scatter, you are not an effective fighting force any longer. certainly not one that can be controlled by the player - hence the inability to control them, and their removal from the board.

However if its guard breaking from genestealers, then they probably have all been eaten....

And that's fine for representing Boyz, maybe IG Infantry etc but it shouldn't be the "normal" way for trained professional soldiers to react when losing combat - from my limited point of view having never actually had to fight for my life - for example should Necron Warriors, IG Storm Troopers or Chaos Space Marines be wiped out in combat in this way? Hell no! ATSKNF, or an equivalent, should be the norm and therefore reflected in the main rulebook and not just one single army type (loyalist MEQ).
I would say that you should then have a "Fearfull" sort of rule for lesser combatants and probably two types of Fearless to reflect the difference between Bezerker type fearless units and Mindless type fearless units which do whatever their master tells them regardless of the personnal consequences.

Tampa - and? You're playing a game that is an abstraction.

Those lone guys succeeding over overwhelming odds? Called rolling a double 1 on your leadership test. Etc.

SO you got schooled in tactics by someone who knew the rules better than you? You must have seen the multiassault coming, right?

I have 4 armies at present, Necron, Tyranid, Eldar and Space Wolves... Necrons were first and favorite. Groups I play with run Orks, Dark Eldar, one Sister player, 2 Tau players and then a crap ton of Space Marines...

Space Marines and IG are soooooo far and away better, now having a Space Marine army and seeing both sides it is beyond question.

Necrons were originally the non-human Space Marine equivilant. That was the function and purpose. Now they are taking them towards being less effective Tau.

Non-humans NEED a SM Equivilant army. Just one. I don't care who it is, but there needs to be one... There had been a lot of hope that the Necron's would be upgrade to remain that, so that's why the "sky is falling doom laden posts."

Orks are unquestionably the best non-human army, but they aren't really a SPE as they are typically a horde army, though they can do the mech lists too.

However, there is nothing that we who prefer non-humans can grab onto as the "standard" and who can compete when all other factors are equal to the Space Marines. Not even talking about IG. IG are on a level all their own...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tampa - erm, you havent seen the codex. These are rumours. Sky is falling doom laden posts are about the least sensible reactions to any of this.

You only wounded monstrous creatures on 6s previous, assuming they were toughness 5+. You realise this makes NO difference to you excpet for the ONE SINGLE T8 MC in the game? Sheesh, talk about overracting bout a change which has an incredibly limited practical effect.

Also:I assume you missed space clown circus and their raping of the game for 18 months? Monstermash? JSJ Tau? Non-marine armies have all had their time in the spotlight, get over yourself.

Grim - so you should have no SA effectively then? Its what your post boils down to.

Grim.Badger wrote:And that's fine for representing Boyz, maybe IG Infantry etc but it shouldn't be the "normal" way for trained professional soldiers to react when losing combat - from my limited point of view having never actually had to fight for my life - for example should Necron Warriors, IG Storm Troopers or Chaos Space Marines be wiped out in combat in this way? Hell no! ATSKNF, or an equivalent, should be the norm and therefore reflected in the main rulebook and not just one single army type (loyalist MEQ).

Professional Soldier or not when you turn tail and run from a melee engagement chances are your dead and yes even the best soldiers are effected by morale and seeing your more of your squad mates die is going to reduce your morale...

No they were in a Transport vehicle that had been going towards an objective as it was objective based game...

So their doubling back to take on a FAR SUPERIOR foe could not have been expected. The smart play was to take the objective as it was the end of turn four and being Tyranids with no vehicles I'd have had no way to get there.

It was a bad idea that ended up working because of a broken rule system...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tampa - and? You're playing a game that is an abstraction.

Those lone guys succeeding over overwhelming odds? Called rolling a double 1 on your leadership test. Etc.

SO you got schooled in tactics by someone who knew the rules better than you? You must have seen the multiassault coming, right?

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And yes after reading these rumors and a couple other sites I am very down on the upcoming Necron release. Me and the other non-human army players have been praying to the Ominssah for SOMETHING that would be the SME for soooooo long. Necrons originally were the NH SME so we had put a lot of hope that they would remain so. So yes there is some frustrations pouring out atm... So I apologize, but I really shouldn't be surprized as GW is a really malignant company, but here we all are dolling out thousands upon thousands of dollars on it... As I've said I have 4 armies (3 I paid for and 1 I got dropped in my lap, Eldar) and I can field 4500-5000 APOC in all three of the ones I have purchased... So yeah I'm tired of getting smacked in the face by GW when it comes to NH armies, especially my beloved Necrons...

Sigh.

None of the "big" NH have had a proper 5th ed release, apart from Tyranids.

You have a lack of perspective,a glaring one, that ignores history. ELdar, Tau and Necron have all roflstomped SM equivalent armies in their time, and doubtless will change how armies play yet again when they get a 5th edition update. Currently DE rape standard SM, and worry the "standard" space wolf setup (as they can get to the long fangs easily, and T5 thunderwolves are meaningless to poison weaponry) - and can even hold their own against IG.

Sky is falling posts based on rumours, that also contradict the more thought out posts (which you clearly missed, but to be fair its a 60+ page thread!) which actually analyse the changes and work out how they fit into an overall MUCH stronger army,

Finally: it was a superior foe by itself. You made an error in not spotting the NR! danger, one which is WELL publicised and known about, and easy to defend against. You left yourself in charge range of (presumably) a LR full of tac marines and didnt spot this? Then you got outmanouvered. Sorry, plain and simply they used the rules to their advantage, whcih is the point of a game.

Indeed at the end of the day it is impossible with how little we have which is not even confirmed I might add to suggest that Necrons are nerfed or buffed. Sure armour save is moving from 3+ to 4+ but you do not know what else is happening to them really in the big picture...

Evaluating a Codex release five months before the book comes out, based solely on a single rules change examined in a vacuum, is pure folly.

Hey, remember when this thread used to be about necron rumours?
Neither do I...

Given the current lack of rumours/news for this thread I'm going to move it over to 40k general. As/when we get some more info we can start a new thread on the News and Rumour board and refer/cut and paste to/from this one.

If I recall correctly, there was a BOLS article this past January with 'cryptic rumours' for the upcoming year. In that I remember reading about undead warriors coming out near all hallows eve.

If that rumor was in any way accurate that means Halloween we'll see a Necron's release, since release days are the first saturday of the month I"m going to go ahead and say November 5 is a likely day for a new codex, but we won't get the INCOMING for it until October 29. Just guessing, I'd like the book sooner as much as anyone.

TampaSatyr wrote:
Orks are unquestionably the best non-human army, but they aren't really a SPE as they are typically a horde army, though they can do the mech lists too.

And along comes AlmightyWalrus and points out that your "unquestionable" claim is wrong, as the Dark Eldar ar certainly capable of going one-on-one (so to speak) with all the 5th ed armies, arguably faring better than the Orks.

TampaSatyr wrote:Gauss Nerf too! Space Marines have missle launchers and twin linked las cannons. DEldar get a Dark Lances and Disintegrators and POISON. Tau, well they get their entire Codex. IG, yeah we know how much high STR weaponry they have. Tyranids have poison. Essentially every codex has Monstrous Creature killing cheese, Necron's had a 6+ poison essentially, that's effectively what Gauss was. Ok it was poison that worked on vehicles, but poison non-the-less. Now? Ok it will still work on vehicles, but monstrous creatures will really, really tough to kill now... It sounds like they are watering down those few parts of the Necron codex that were effective.

At least I started a Space Wolves army so I can remain competitive, because clearly the Necrons are going down to bottom of the barrel...

Probably in 6th they will bring in the rule where you can wound something on a 6 regardless like in 8th edition fantasy so in the Necron codex it would be redundant.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

TampaSatyr wrote:
Orks are unquestionably the best non-human army, but they aren't really a SPE as they are typically a horde army, though they can do the mech lists too.

And along comes AlmightyWalrus and points out that your "unquestionable" claim is wrong, as the Dark Eldar ar certainly capable of going one-on-one (so to speak) with all the 5th ed armies, arguably faring better than the Orks.

Agreed. DE are far better than Orks, who essentially have one list - run across in a Deff rolla BW, pray the KFF holds, and puinch people as quickly as you can.

KarlPedder wrote:

Grim.Badger wrote:And that's fine for representing Boyz, maybe IG Infantry etc but it shouldn't be the "normal" way for trained professional soldiers to react when losing combat - from my limited point of view having never actually had to fight for my life - for example should Necron Warriors, IG Storm Troopers or Chaos Space Marines be wiped out in combat in this way? Hell no! ATSKNF, or an equivalent, should be the norm and therefore reflected in the main rulebook and not just one single army type (loyalist MEQ).

Professional Soldier or not when you turn tail and run from a melee engagement chances are your dead and yes even the best soldiers are effected by morale and seeing your more of your squad mates die is going to reduce your morale...

You mean like WW1 where morale was constantly rock bottom and you got to see thousands of you mates die? and troops still moved forwards. There are examples of troops withstanding crippling attacks in both shooting and CC circumstances throughout history and standing their ground, or falling back to the next cover and reforming; it's what trained soldiers do, not something that should be a SM special rule.
I'm not saying SA has no place in the game, but it really shouldn't be "the norm" given that the vast majority of the units in the game are career soldiers.

And the Swarm Lord taking 9 fearless wounds when the Marines hadn't scratched it is just plain dumb, the "everyone in the combat" part of the fearless rule needs to go at the very least. I don't like taking 15 fearless wounds on my Scarabs, but I can live with it, but taking another 15 on anything else in the same combat because an MC has killed 5 scarab bases is ludicrous and unjustified. I know the way around it is to not let anything else be in the same combat, but you shouldn't have to work around broken rules.

Agreed with Grim.Badger. Its the part in which every freaking squad takes the same ammount of fearless saves that needs to go.

Grim - so, that would be them rolling "double 1" a lot.

this game does not, in any way shape or form, attempt to simulate real life. If you want something a little more realistic than giant GM knights firing mini gyrojet rockets at space elves shouting loudly at you, then maybe this is the wrong game for you. Are you suggesting that only sides that took any damage take NR!? So youve added more book keeping to a game theyre deliberately engineering to rmeove as much bookkeeping as they can. Or, in other words, you've missed the point of the way 40k has been designed in 5th edition.

Also guard have a mechanic for the fallback and regroup - see their Orders.

In other words: I see this gripe about NR! a lot, and it isnt difficult to learn to avoid or mitigate the effects of it. It also makes Fearless have an actual downside, as compared to 4th when it was all gravy.

Grim.Badger wrote:You mean like WW1 where morale was constantly rock bottom and you got to see thousands of you mates die? and troops still moved forwards. There are examples of troops withstanding crippling attacks in both shooting and CC circumstances throughout history and standing their ground, or falling back to the next cover and reforming; it's what trained soldiers do, not something that should be a SM special rule.
I'm not saying SA has no place in the game, but it really shouldn't be "the norm" given that the vast majority of the units in the game are career soldiers.

I know that World War I was a brutal, nasty conflict, but those trained soldiers weren't fighting super humans armed with chainsaw swords, extra-galactic monstrosities, crazed walking tanks or the terrors of the Warp. Trained soldiers or not, the 40k universe throws things at you that are well beyond most of the dangers that we face in the real world. Beyond that, troops "falling back to cover and reforming" isn't always as simple as running twenty yards and hopping behind some sandbags to gather your wits. They may have fled much deeper into the trench network, or to an entirely different position entirely. Remember that troops that are destroyed in combat aren't always killed, they've simply forfeited that particular field of battle.


Nos, it wouldn't be particularly difficult to count the models removed as casualties during a combat in order to dictate how Fearless wounds are allocated ("I removed three Daemonettes, one Plaguebearer and suffered no wounds on my Daemon Prince. Therefore my Daemonettes take three Fearless wounds, my Plaguebearers take one and my Daemon Prince takes none."). I understand the need for No Retreat! in the rules, but its current incarnation doesn't make a whole lot of sense from either a logical or mechanical standpoint.

I understand we are all nerd raged,sad people since our lil metal men are currently in a pretty bad position and will prolly stay there for quite a while yet, but since this is a *NECRON* rumor thread I would like to please you: Do not make a Necron player who wants to read rumors or anything the Internet got to offer have to read 60 pages of Ward hate, SM hate, arguing about 40k Rules(SA or NR), or anything similar. I know im no member of this site or anything but PLEASE keep it on topic. You will make our lifes easier.Thanks

As for rumors, my lgs manager-owner told me that he was told that Necrons will probably get pushed back to 2012 since there is no 40k in summer. From what I think however there will be no 40k in automn either. (Ogres)
This fits perfect with the rumor that they(GW) are trying to boost Fantasy a lot.

NECRONS, sweeeeeeet


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if i have to wait till 2012 i will be ticked off

2012... OK who wants my models before i take the giant dump on them?

just kill me now please.

Dibs

I'll keep on playing underpowered, as underpowered may be better than fethed up beyond all recall..

I'll take sloppy seconds after Ascalam is finished taking what he wants

2012 pisses me off, now I'm definitely going to focus on my CSM and pretend that none of this happened and when Crons finally come out, I'll pretend it's something new and marvelous.

Skaer - mechanically it does make sense;

ALL units in the losing side take a morale check, - the number of wounds they lost by

ALL fearless units in the losing side take a number of fearless saves equal to the number of wounds they lost by

It represents the combat being a single entity, with 2 sides only. It simplifies the rules structure (same situation, either LD - difference of wounds = difference) which is the main aim of 5th

Keep piling all the Matt Ward hate that you want. He seems to write 'balanced' codices (from a game-play perspective). Necrons will be updated and decent players will be able to win with them again.

Salt, salt, where's the damn salt?!? ~ Jimmy Buffett
Rumors of this... fanboy wishes of that... What's pissing you off right now isn't worth the electrons it takes to make it appear on your screen! Just keep watching the back page of WD, and we'll find out relatively soonish. I mean, Necrons have been waiting YEARS for a codex...


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PS. Anyone serious about giving models away, I'll take them. I'm just starting my Necron army and I don't mind rejects!
'

As above.

In terms of making good codexes, with generally ok balance and a good selection of units and interesting rules / combos - Matt Ward is leagues ahead of either cruddace or PHils Space Wolves

The impression i got was that his codeces are pretty balanced and work well from a game point of view, but his Fluff can tend to be a little......lack lustre.....or crap.

Does sound like a good shift to make them a more competitive army, which is always a good thing! i hope i'll face a few armies using this codex, it'd be fun to play but my funds won't quite allow me to start another new army! D: look forward to seeing them on the battlefield though, imo the more necrons the better!

Ward's Codecies seem to be balanced when it comes to established units, but new units are a bit hit-and-miss; however so far I haven't seen one that is overpowered, just overcosted.

That bodes well for existing Necron Units and established players and hopefully means that you wont need a whole load of new models.

This sounds epic! Though im really disapointed pariahs are gone!