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 Galef wrote:

Something I liked about Formations when done right was when they had certain fluffy "tax" units. Like the Vyper unit for the Windrider formation. That is the only thing i'll really miss about formations.

I disagree. Points only purpose in the game is to maintain some semblance of balance but charging players $$$ to unlock the full utility of their units with no accompanying pts costs for the benefits is a huge leap too far. It's the tabletop equivalent of videogame dlc cut from the main game yet integral to it that is sold as an additional purchase day 1. If they had continued charging actual points for formations then Id have grudgingly accepted it but by making vehicles, upgrades, and multiple rules free it became blatant pay to win.

I like a lot of what I hear however I feel gw is putting to much into the command point basket. It should be useful like reroll a single die, deploy a unit from reserves, however it sounds like gw is throwing a ton of options for it and really feels like they are taking away from the army with it.

I like the sounds of the new system. It will still depend heavily on getting the costs/abilities/FOC slot waaaay closer than they were though. (Scatbike etc)

tneva82 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
I'm really worried about it from the perspective of IG though. Unless they change platoons, you can basically stack an entire army worth of infantry into a single troop slot if you wanted to. Six troop slots is 130 guardsmen, minimum, unless you're taking veterans. I think in most of my games at 1500-2000 points previously, I took about 50-60 (including HQ and vets) tops. That's a lot of padding to get the hip new points.

That is bit scary thought. Wonder how they handle IG. If they drop platoon idea that kinda runs against IG's idea of getting lots of infantry but with platoons those minimum troops would be real hassle to fill.

Veterans are there but required to use those to avoid 130 guardsmen...And still haven't figured good way to separate veterans and non veterans easily.

They've already said that Platoons are still in.

No more individual formations/detatchements?

Ive been waiting for them to AoS 40k since AoS dropped(and I switched over to it),but now that its actually happening,im not sure if I want to come back to 40k..ive been playing the new ruleset for almost 2 years now,its awesome for fantasy but with 40k I was expecting vehicle facings to remain,,and now,,there wont be individual army formations?

The Battalions in AoS are what makes the armies so different and they work great even for balance...take that out of the game and it gets lame pretty fast.

 Kanluwen wrote:

They've already said that Platoons are still in.

In the traditional form? Like, 25-man minimum?

Guess I'll have to start painting.

 En Excelsis wrote:
40k's success was due in no small part to it's amazing background and lore - the stuff meta-gamers and min-maxers lovelessly refer to as 'fluff'. But it's the 'fluff' that sets it apart (IMO above) the competition. I'd much rather play WH40k than say Flames of War for the same reason that I'd rather play Relic's Space Marine than Battlefield, Call of Duty, or Medal of Honor. It's not they are bad games, but they all effectively just different shades of the same color. By comparison WH40k and it's related games - all based on the same 'fluff' has the added value of being characterful. For my part, the 'fluff' is the greatest value - and GW has been slowly chipping away at that value for the last several editions.

Given that sub-factions like Harlequins, Genestealer Cults, Deathwatch, etc., have recently returned to the game and universe, I think you're FAR off base here. The 40K universe contracted quite a bit in 3rd through 5th edition, but depth and breadth have been on the upswing both in 6th and in 7th especially.

 insaniak wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Barely. Formations were pretty universally hated on Dakka, in fact, this thread shows most of people calling 7th the "Formation Edition" or the "Free Edition".

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/725126.page

Yeah, I'm not sure that 4 people out of more than a hundred thousand registered users mentioning that formations are a thing in a thread listing the defining features of each edition is really much of an indicator that formations are universally hated by this community...



Having said that, IMO formations were another of those 'good idea, badly implemented' things that have been so prevalent in 6th/7th edition, so I'm not sorry to see them go.

How about the one entitled "FORMATIONS ARE GONE!"?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/725140.page

 Kanluwen wrote:
They've already said that Platoons are still in.

Time to start converting veterans then...That or accept no command points! I think I might just baaaaaarely have enough for battalion at least if I paint the 3rd platoon but literally zero options for troops...

 Desubot wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Youn wrote:
Just because Solitaire, Death Jester and Shadowseer are normally part of a troupe doesn't mean they cannot go back to being Independent characters.

Umm pretty sure they are. They just don't have HQ which prevented them using CAD and forced to use either faction specific detachment or formation.

But so far we have seen 3 detachments. 11 unseen. Doubtful all of them require HQ.

also assuming any models will retain there original FOC slots.

With 14 different potential FOC options, I imagine at least one would involve taking so many troops, elites and no HQs. This also makes skitarii work elegantly.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Barely. Formations were pretty universally hated on Dakka, in fact, this thread shows most of people calling 7th the "Formation Edition" or the "Free Edition".

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/725126.page

Yeah, I'm not sure that 4 people out of more than a hundred thousand registered users mentioning that formations are a thing in a thread listing the defining features of each edition is really much of an indicator that formations are universally hated by this community...



Having said that, IMO formations were another of those 'good idea, badly implemented' things that have been so prevalent in 6th/7th edition, so I'm not sorry to see them go.

How about the one entitled "FORMATIONS ARE GONE!"?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/725140.page

An opinion being louder doesn't make it more prevalent. Every poll I've ever seen about formations on this forum has been pretty close to a 50/50 split.

 daedalus wrote:

Spoiler:

tneva82 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
I'm really worried about it from the perspective of IG though. Unless they change platoons, you can basically stack an entire army worth of infantry into a single troop slot if you wanted to. Six troop slots is 130 guardsmen, minimum, unless you're taking veterans. I think in most of my games at 1500-2000 points previously, I took about 50-60 (including HQ and vets) tops. That's a lot of padding to get the hip new points.

That is bit scary thought. Wonder how they handle IG. If they drop platoon idea that kinda runs against IG's idea of getting lots of infantry but with platoons those minimum troops would be real hassle to fill.

Veterans are there but required to use those to avoid 130 guardsmen...And still haven't figured good way to separate veterans and non veterans easily.

I did some custom heads and backpacks and a different paintjob. The downside being that they're no longer interchangable.

Pics (spoiled for OT) :
[spoiler]
Vet example (not fully painted)

Default paint scheme (on an Al-rahem counts-as)

If nothing else, I'm still a big fan of the forgeworld upgrade. I was too lazy to make my own and found them to be good to use as vets.

A lack of LoWs makes sense to try and get rid of super heavy spam. But they seem to be forgetting that we have single infantry models in the LoW slot (at least for now).

 jreilly89 wrote:

How about the one entitled "FORMATIONS ARE GONE!"?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/725140.page

What about it?

tneva82 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They've already said that Platoons are still in.

Time to start converting veterans then...That or accept no command points! I think I might just baaaaaarely have enough for battalion at least if I paint the 3rd platoon but literally zero options for troops...

Veterans are currently Troops. I'd be surprised to see them get moved but who knows.

I can, theoretically, run a Brigade depending on how things shake out.
It won't be pleasant for me carrying everything, but c'est la vie I guess...I built towards that for the Cadian Detachment. Sadly I won't get to use my Shadowsword...

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
A lack of LoWs makes sense to try and get rid of super heavy spam. But they seem to be forgetting that we have single infantry models in the LoW slot (at least for now).

For AdMech, won't IKTs just be Troops?

At this point I really just want to see a few full unit cards. Seeing full statlines, point costs, special rules and upgrade options for a few units will give me a better feel for where this game is going than anything else would.

Well, looks like I will be adding a third Tactical Squad to my Crimson Fists and some BP/CCW Scouts to my Blood Angels. My Skitarii have no HQ, so who knows how that will work. Hopefully the alternate detachments will have a lower Troop or HQ requirement, but required amounts of other roles.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Well, looks like I will be adding a third Tactical Squad to my Crimson Fists and some BP/CCW Scouts to my Blood Angels. My Skitarii have no HQ, so who knows how that will work. Hopefully the alternate detachments will have a lower Troop or HQ requirement, but required amounts of other roles.

I really hope not.

I have zero Fast Attacks for my AdMech. I dislike Dragoons on an aesthetic level.

gungo wrote:
I like a lot of what I hear however I feel gw is putting to much into the command point basket. It should be useful like reroll a single die, deploy a unit from reserves, however it sounds like gw is throwing a ton of options for it and really feels like they are taking away from the army with it.

Hopefully there are faction-specific command point functions, so something like calling a WAAAGH! for Orks or possibly allowing a hit and run move for Dark Eldar or the like.

That being said, there are other ways for GW to focus on army feel, including different types of detachments for factions. Or we might see different warlord traits/relics and they may just leave it at that, which I hope not. AoS has been doing a great job with the most recent factions having cool, unique mechanics (Kharadron code, Destiny Dice, Blood Tithe and Stormcast Deep-Strike) and I'd be surprised if this wasn't mirrored in 40k some way.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Well, looks like I will be adding a third Tactical Squad to my Crimson Fists and some BP/CCW Scouts to my Blood Angels. My Skitarii have no HQ, so who knows how that will work. Hopefully the alternate detachments will have a lower Troop or HQ requirement, but required amounts of other roles.

I really hope not.

I have zero Fast Attacks for my AdMech. I dislike Dragoons on an aesthetic level.

Sorry, that was directed at my SM armies, who all run with one HQ (and a LOW for my BA). I am hoping for a high Elites or Heavy Support requirement for an alternate to use with my CF (but fewer Troops), and a high Elites or Fast Attack alternate for my BA. Skitarii need more choices for the different roles. I like Dragoons (I hope the Sniper version is buffed though), but I can see why they aren't for everyone. They might just add Techpriest Dominus and Enginseers to Skitarii as available HQs. They really should add a Skitarii Alpha Primus model anyway. Oh well. I strongly suspect Skitarii and Ad Mech will be made into one army.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Hopefully the alternate detachments will have a lower Troop or HQ requirement, but required amounts of other roles.

Oh, noes, the AdMech can only take 1-4 Troops, but must take 1-6 Lords of War...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Hopefully the alternate detachments will have a lower Troop or HQ requirement, but required amounts of other roles.

Oh, noes, the AdMech can only take 1-4 Troops, but must take 1-6 Lords of War...

Heh. Yeah, I definitely can see how there is abuse potential.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Hopefully the alternate detachments will have a lower Troop or HQ requirement, but required amounts of other roles.

Oh, noes, the AdMech can only take 1-4 Troops, but must take 1-6 Lords of War...

Heh. Yeah, I definitely can see how there is abuse potential.

Yeah nothing is absolute so its all going to come down to wait and see

unless we can get our hands on them play testers and "persuade" them

*watches as the 6th/7th Ed Formation pyre burns into the night*

And nothing of any value, whatsoever, was lost.

Good riddance to one of the dumbest ideas to ever infest this game. Formations should have:

1. Cost points.
2. Stayed in Apoc.
3. Never, ever given free transports/upgrades to units. Ever!

 Desubot wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Hopefully the alternate detachments will have a lower Troop or HQ requirement, but required amounts of other roles.

Oh, noes, the AdMech can only take 1-4 Troops, but must take 1-6 Lords of War...

Heh. Yeah, I definitely can see how there is abuse potential.

Yeah nothing is absolute so its all going to come down to wait and see

unless we can get our hands on them play testers and "persuade" them

I am just looking at my armies and seeing that I will need to remove some stuff in order to make room for that second HQ in the Battalion. I really don't want to have to use the Patrol since it lacks the amount of HS for my Crimson Fists and the amount of Elites for my Blood Angels. And my Crimson Fists don't fit because I added the Lascannon Devastators back in after have had them gone for a year. My BA have a Furioso, but if Cassor the Damned remains a Troops choice, I might take the Furioso out and put Cassor in Troops instead of the Scouts I currently shoved in.

I wouldn't mind an all Elites and HQ required detachment. It would be good for the Archangels and Deathwing, and even work for the Farsight Enclaves.

Skitarii no longer exist. The only faction in the new 40k page is Adeptus Mechanicus, so Skitarii will have HQ. The ones of the Adeptus Mechanicus, as always should have been. Then, the Start Collecting! Will make sense.

 Galas wrote:
Skitarii no longer exist. The only faction in the new 40k page is Adeptus Mechanicus, so Skitarii will have HQ. The ones of the Adeptus Mechanicus, as always should have been.

They said those lists were from a narrative standpoint and not to use them as a gauge of what factions are or are not in the game.

Having Ad Mech as one faction does solve the HQ problem, but it does also muck the fluff up since Techpriests are in orbit controlling the Skitarii, not PlanetSide.

The question is does this new system allow for variant lists, or do they make new FOCs?

For instance, do they make a Deathwing FOC that has nothing but Elite and HS slots, and put a limit on Dreads (so you have to take Deathwing squads), or do they just say 'Deathwing Terminators count as Troops in a Deathwing army'?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Skitarii no longer exist. The only faction in the new 40k page is Adeptus Mechanicus, so Skitarii will have HQ. The ones of the Adeptus Mechanicus, as always should have been.

They said those lists were from a narrative standpoint and not to use them as a gauge of what factions are or are not in the game.

Having Ad Mech as one faction does solve the HQ problem, but it does also muck the fluff up since Techpriests are in orbit controlling the Skitarii, not PlanetSide.

I know that. But to me is just a confirmation of the unification of the two factions that have no reason to be cut in half. I totally expect them to do it, and maybe them I will do the Cult Mechanicus Army I always wanted.

And the fluff has no problem really. I doubt Creed will be in the front line fighting with his soldiers but there you have it. If a Techpriest need to go to make ground-job, he will do it.