Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Void__Dragon wrote:

kenzosan wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Odd, I seem to recall Necrons being more endurant than Marines, with bolter-fire in the fluff not actually being able to faze them. As for physical strength, cannot recall if a comparison has been drawn.

Marines are more agile and quicker than Necrons though, and since most Necrons are automatons, Space Marines are also more adaptible.

that says nothing for equipment.

a necrons bs should be atleast on par. a necrons toughness, thats debatable given how gw works toughness (crisis suits = sm -_-), but atleast on par. a necrons armour save should be atleast on par with sm.

see what im saying here. an ADVANCED "species" where we cant even explain how the things they make work is weaker (rarely equal) then the apex of human technology.

im not a necron player, i do have a sm ba army, but that doesnt mean i ignore logic. thus the crisis suit comment earlier.

Oh, sorry, I misinterpreted what you were saying.

Yeah, Necrons are the most advanced race in the galaxy, by far, and Living Metal has consistently been shown to be awesome as hell. Their technology is capable of achieving things the Imperium can only dream of. Although, to be fair to Marines, they also have the geneseed of essential Demigods, although I cannot recall if that actually does anything to make them stronger in of itself.

i forgot to add. ws and initiative should be better on marines. as you said, marines are agile. that geneseed is why i say bs should be on par. but toughness and armour saves are bull. thats tech through and through (in case of marines and tau, or any other technical army). toughness id argue with, thats why i said its debatable. toughness could include resilience which marines are damn resilient. armour saves are not, they are pure un adulterated tech.

Definitely initiative, yeah. WS, fluffwise, I am not sure where Necron Warriors stand, all I recall is them tearing apart guardsmen with their Flayer-mounted axes, but they could do that by virtue of size and strength alone.

Toughness is physical resilience to injury, I am pretty sure, for the most part. Take for examples Orks. Terrible armour. Great toughness, due to their natural resilience and lack of essential organs.

Although in the case of the Necrons, yeah, their toughness is tech-based, obviously, lol.

Given that Necron tech is supposed to be waaaay in advance of all other races, and the Imperium is supposeded to be a stagnant techbase that was less advanced:

How come:

The imperium has far better pieplates
Marines have a better Inv save generator, and way more of them per group.
Marines can't run away, but higher ld robots (robots for C'tan's sake) can.
Robots can feel pain, but whole other armies can't?
Necrons only have one tank, with short range and slow as tar, but the imperium has fething thousands of variants for every occasion.

etc etc ad nauseam.

If the Necrons have such awesomely badass tech, it would be nice if they got to actually use some to ...you know... be better at killing than others. Otherwise you just have more expensive, more fragile versions of lower tech guns for no benefit.

The fluff tends to have necrons be very very resilient, and well armoured (armour at least as good as any marine...), as well as being good shots. The gauss beams are generally only allowed to strip the paint from a Marine's pauldrons, instead of flaying him to ash, but they generally hit

They are also described as pretty strong, lifting opponents one handed/throwing them around etc...

Well balance plays a part in it. Necrons should not be the bestest evar at everything.

The running away thing is explicitly mentioned to be more akin to knowing when to tactically retreat... Allegedly, in practice it does not really work that way, and phase out makes it seem redundant.

As for Feel No Pain, to be fair... WBB is basically FNP. Having both would be kind of broken.

But yeah, part of it is an outdated codex. I did not play back then, but Necrons were apparently broken when they were introduced, Warriors capable of popping the most heavily armoured vehicles.

IMHO, Necrons SHOULD be the best at everything ever. They should be more broken than 7th edition Daemons of Chaos if they want to fit the power of their fluff. And hence, I think including Necrons was a foolish move on GW's part, putting in a race that have the best tech, can ressurect themselves, have physical GODS in the game, already conquered the Galaxy before, had the power to shut the Warp off from Realspace, etc etc. They should have made them less awesome in their fluff, or they'd become the new Marines, ie pulling craaazy things like "I eat its brain. Now I know stuff."

I didn't say best at everything

That seems to be the Astatres's job :(

Marines know when to tactically retreat also, i'd assume? Cuts very little ice. Especially since the necrons don't die when destroyed and marines are...

I'd rather have FNP. WBB is a clunky rule that is a pain to track, as the 'corpses' tend to mess up movement, and get pushed around by your opponent if he wants to move thru the 'debris', which messes up measuring for WBB.

They were strong when they first came in, but hardly overpowered.

My comments were more in line with the fluff question than the rules one.

Necrons specialize in killing, 24/7, without rest beyond repair time. So how come they are inferior at this to races with vastly cruder tech?

Game balance limitations i can understand, but fluffwise you have to admit they bite at killing anything that wears armour, especially if it is 3+. The fluff has necrons (who are just as tough, strong and good at shooting/cc as marines, if a touch slower in reactions) going down by the score to equal statline or weaker races , who lose only a few doing so, or none, even if unarmoured and armed with improvised weapons.

Scarey Nerd wrote:IMHO, Necrons SHOULD be the best at everything ever. They should be more broken than 7th edition Daemons of Chaos if they want to fit the power of their fluff. And hence, I think including Necrons was a foolish move on GW's part, putting in a race that have the best tech, can ressurect themselves, have physical GODS in the game, already conquered the Galaxy before, had the power to shut the Warp off from Realspace, etc etc. They should have made them less awesome in their fluff, or they'd become the new Marines, ie pulling craaazy things like "I eat its brain. Now I know stuff."

To be fair, the two awakened C'tan are weakened, Nightbringer in particular being pathetic compared to its glory-days. And even then, the C'tan parading around, stutting their godly awesomeness would be idiotic, because as powerful as they are, there DO exist weapons that can seriously harm or even kill them, most prevalent being the Blackstone Fortresses.

What people forget is that there are not many Necrons, compared to Orkz, Tyranids, or even humanity. They have advantages, yes, but so does every other faction. And with 5th edition, the Necrons themselves are explicitly fallible, their sentience degrading with each "death."

We'll Be Back on a 5+ and Gauss nerf? They do realize that Necrons suck at the moment, right?

Sounds like they're basically giving Necrons squad leaders in the same form as Wolf Guard, which I thought they should have done a long time ago. The more I think about it, the more I think it makes sense for Warriors and Flayed ones to have a 4+ save and the extra model count and these 'Sgts' should make them competent in melee, hopefully. If giving them the 'Sgt' and the upgrade for them to repair on a 4+ together makes them cost around the same as a 10-man squad of the current Warriors for the same amount of models, then I'm all for it... Though I know these Sgts will probably cost about 80pts with the rez field and up to 3 power weapon attacks, not to mention being Independent Characters capable of being sniped in melee and giving another killpoint... aka @$$.

WBB looks buffed for the most part since it's rolled per phase and can always be taken, as if there was a res orb. Although expecting FNP and getting a 5+ 'wait till later' save kinda sucks... hard. I'd rather take my save now even though I don't get it for power weapons and not lose in melee than having a 75% chance of losing my entire squad and not taking those saves anyway. Those Necron Guard squad leaders better be faceroll to make up for the incompetence of the Warriors.

C'tan as Elites sound really stupid. It's like they're subservient to the Lords, which makes them seem pretty pathetic and not Gods. I doubt they'll have anything higher than T7 or 4 wounds, even for the Nightbringer.

I have a hunch Warriors are going to blow @$$ and Immortals are going to have the exact stat block as the current Warriors except they can fire on the move, which I always thought Necrons should have Relentless or at least Slow and Purposeful anyway; so to me, this isn't that great. Plus, it's GW being Greed Workshop so Necron players have to replace ALL THEIR TROOP CHOICES FOR NEW MODELS. F*CK YOU, GW!

Nerfing Gauss... really? Gauss was complete garbage as it was, now it's worse? Way to make all the 'advanced' races a complete joke. It's just a Bolter that can sometimes annoy a vehicle, awesome.

Monolith losing its portal ability... well it better be Leman Russ cost, which it wont. That was also the only thing keeping the old codex afloat. The fact that you can pull a squad out of melee and re-roll all your failed WBB. If there isn't anything in the Codex that can replace re-rolling WBB, we might be better off using the old 'dex. I think Necrons are going to have the 'Nid treatments: all personality stripped (what little personality Necrons had left) with a couple power lists and the rest complete @$$. Or they might be like Dark Eldar and be easily counterable with mediocrity spread across the board.

I don't think I'm going to see anything in this Codex that'll make me go, 'OMG, wow!' besides some initial rumors of like: "Storm Troopers get AP3 hellguns!" But they have 18" range and cost 16pts a model, trollololol! TL;DR This codex is probably going to suck.

How does losing the ability to auto wound on a 6, on a s4 weapon, "nerf" said weapon?

There was only ONE creature in the whole of 40k (standard) that it used that ability on that wasnt a Ctan. ONE.

WHy do you think you'll HAVE to buy new models? Theyre still warriors, just CHEAPER (2/3rd the price levels of "cheaper" as well) so wbb against *everything* on a 5+ actually makes them tougher than before, point for point.

Sky is falling doom mongering as usual. Sigh.

I hope those rumors are just that, rumors.

nosferatu1001 wrote:How does losing the ability to auto wound on a 6, on a s4 weapon, "nerf" said weapon?

There was only ONE creature in the whole of 40k (standard) that it used that ability on that wasnt a Ctan. ONE.

WHy do you think you'll HAVE to buy new models? Theyre still warriors, just CHEAPER (2/3rd the price levels of "cheaper" as well) so wbb against *everything* on a 5+ actually makes them tougher than before, point for point.

Sky is falling doom mongering as usual. Sigh.

Wow, you live on these forums.

A nerf is a nerf, no matter how small. And I say we'll have to buy new models because if we want any kind of competent army, we'll have to get them. Just like I don't HAVE to replace my Spinefists with Fleshborers even though there is no possible situation where spinefists would be superior to Fleshborers. Just like you don't HAVE to have nice things in your life to survive, but why would anyone seek out to have nice things anyway?

Actually, they are not tougher unless you think a 4+ save is better than a 3+ save or a 5+ WBB is better than a 4+ WBB. 1/3 point reduction for 2/3 the effectiveness? Wasn't this an old codex?

Fuegan wrote:
Actually, they are not tougher unless you think a 4+ save is better than a 3+ save or a 5+ WBB is better than a 4+ WBB. 1/3 point reduction for 2/3 the effectiveness? Wasn't this an old codex?

We'll be back against everything while being cheaper, meaning you can get more warriors for the same price=tougher.

4+ save = terribad. Count up all the AP4 weapons and then count up all the AP3 weapons and compare. 3+ sv > model count.

Fuegan wrote:4+ save = terribad. Count up all the AP4 weapons and then count up all the AP3 weapons and compare. 3+ sv > model count.

4+ save and what is effectively an invulnerable save against all shooting.

Could get the same with a Lord. Are you even a Necron player? Being within 6" of a Lord with 1 model isn't that difficult. You act like it's the best thing ever to already have a 40pt piece of wargear including is the best thing that could possibly happen. Not that big of a deal. In fact, I'd rather pay 40pts to get that over that @$$ of a 5+ WBB. Old codex > New.

No, what you perceive to the be the new codex is worse, in your opinion.

With 4+ cover being ubiquitous 4+ cover and 5+ wbb > 3+ save. It also means your lords dont just get to babysit any longer...

Also: a nerf is only a nerf if it is a significant change. Dropping the auto wound on 6s helps you against one of the most underused models in the game. A model which you are already more than able to kill at range anyway...

2/3 the cost meaning you can have more models. failin g a save 1/6th less while costing 2/3 less == tougher

Why do you have to buy new troops, I ask again? Dd you read any of the rumours? WARRIORS themselves remain the same. Same gun. So, you can either buy more of them (but dont have to) as you now have more poiints to spend, OR you can buy something else.

Typical sky is falling doom mongering.

Lol, guy is on these forums day and night, it is his sustenance.

I think this codex is going to blow like the Nids, we'll see.

Ive got high hopes, and am going to reserve judgement until i see the codex with my own eyes

Minor confirmation, not about date but about models. I was at throne of skulls, purchased 2 destroyers and one heavy, the vendor went to speak with the gw reps about getting more, he came back and said the gw rep told him not to sell without me knowing there will be new models so he wouldn't disappoint his customer, I told him I want then anyways.

Just confirmation that it is happening, maybe sooner than you think.

Pick up a Necron Warrior model sometime, and look at all of the armor that he's wearing. Yep. None. Maybe armored Necrons would have world beating, Astartes-dominating armor saves, but as it stands, Necrons appear to go into battle with nothing more than their metal skins to protect them. Even a machine needs armor to protect its vital components from damage. As for Necrons being less resilient than Space Marines with Feel No Pain...talk to me when Space Marines start standing back up after getting blown to buggery by Demolishers, Battle Cannons and Maw Cannons. Honestly, I would rather have a 5+ that can't be doubled out/power weaponed than a 4+ FNP.

The sky isn't falling, we're not getting the current Necron Codex with a couple of rule and statistic changes. Even if something is "nerfed," something else will get buffed to compensate. Yes, you'll have to buy new models in order to remain competitive. That's how GW makes money, by getting you to buy more models. That trend isn't unique to the Necron Dex.

This is why all my necrons are sleeping ATM, I got a Battleforce and SURPRISE, new codex rumors. So I'm gonna wait for the codex in order to buy new models....I'll just have to modify my current units.

I just hope the 6th edition rumors are not true :l

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Fuegan wrote:4+ save = terribad. Count up all the AP4 weapons and then count up all the AP3 weapons and compare. 3+ sv > model count.

4+ save and what is effectively an invulnerable save against all shooting.

so an ap 4 wep hits you and you get a 5+ inv save versus before where you got your normal save AND wbb. assault cannons and heavy bolters are now gonna kick ass. sure, youll be tougher against bolter fire, but who relies on bolter fire?

god help the necron in front of the baal predator, just saying.

I am really hoping that the save stays at 3, even though Im pretty sure it wont...

Again we have to wait and see the costs of the Warriors before we can place them.

I dont think we will be 2 bad with the 4+ and the Rez Orb.
Not many others get to make saves even after losing their armor to AP weapons.

As for FNP we have WBB ... same thing maybe WBB is Better.

As for them "Not having armor" they are walking living metal xenos. The living metal is suppose to be VERY tough Armor.

And last but not least our Str 4 Weapons losing The Auto Wound on 6s. As it was pointed out before (To me) there are a whole 3 units with a High enough toughness to need an auto wound, 2 of which are Citans. (Wraith Lord i think was the other).

Tyrs13 wrote:
As for them "Not having armor" they are walking living metal xenos. The living metal is suppose to be VERY tough Armor.

Made of metal isn't the same thing as being armored. Beyond that, Living Metal is represented as being very tough in the game. A 4+ armor save is pretty impressive for an army that essentially goes into battle in its knickers.

Repentia get a 4+ from their everlast undies.

What the hell are they made of? Astral whalebone?


Also the necrons are described as haing armour the equal of any space marine.

How do you armour a robot? Does it shrug into a combat pot and a flak vest?

No, it has armour built onto it's frame.

Try an experiment. Swing a baseball bat at a metal sculpture of a human skeleton, (let's say steel, for lack of Living Metal (which AFAIK isn't explicitly mentioned as being what warriorsar emade of anyway (ships, ctan necrodermis etc yes, but i don't recall seeing it anywhere else).

Then try swinging just as hard at a human wearing a breastplate (read carapace armour).

See which takes damage first. It won't be the solid metal bone (though you could feth up the joints, that would apply even more to the human in the suit).

Orks can achieve a 4+ save by wearing rusty scrap metal. 4+ isn't that great armour.

SkaerKrow wrote:

Tyrs13 wrote:
As for them "Not having armor" they are walking living metal xenos. The living metal is suppose to be VERY tough Armor.

Made of metal isn't the same thing as being armored. Beyond that, Living Metal is represented as being very tough in the game. A 4+ armor save is pretty impressive for an army that essentially goes into battle in its knickers.

a 4+ armour save for an army whose skin is tougher then most armies metal is crap. yea, they fight naked, but so do nids. the difference, nids cant take a hit but cost nothing to field.

they most likely have 4+ saves but why arent they tougher then? advanced living metal kinda entails some form of "i can eat bullets"

At this rate i wouldnt be suprised to see even sisters go down to a 4+ for the sole purpose of making marines the only 3+ army in the game.

I don't mind having Necron saves dropped to 4+ and We'll Be Back to 5+. As of now, whenever I want to do anything to vehicles, they need a 6 to glance. Heck, my entire strategy at the moment is line up entire army, shoot at the closest thing, pray for 6's, then watch as it survives and downs my entire army the following turn. Okay, that sounds bad, and never actually happens, but I rely on 6's a lot. I don't mind the change of saves and wbb only because I've been relying on 6's the entire 5th edition.

On a better note, in my opinion, 6th edition is rumored to switch assault phase and shooting phase around, and that's better for necrons. As of now, and probably in the future, Necrons haven't been too great at assault. Too many times have my warriors been shot at, then assaulted, and then wiped out. With this new setup, we will still have to assault, but now are troops won't be shot at first. Also, with the new 5th phase, which I can't recall the name, I've heard that is when We'll Be Back will be done, so it looks like we'll get to bring back warriors during the end of each players turn. at least, thats how i interpret the rumors...

Those 6's are very nice, or i guess, they arent nice...to the enemy!