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Phil did only an OKish job on CWE (3.5/5), and Jes' mk.II Rhino is merely par (2.5/5).

JohnHwangDD wrote:Phil did only an OKish job on CWE (3.5/5), and Jes' mk.II Rhino is merely par (2.5/5).

So Jes is the originator of that awful new Rhino?

Well I suppose that even masters make mistakes.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Phil did only an OKish job on CWE (3.5/5), and Jes' mk.II Rhino is merely par (2.5/5).

Tearing myself away from that hugely distracting avatar of yours for a moment, this is a typical throwaway superior comment. Merely 'par' with what? Setting aside the fact that like all GW vehicles it's overpriced for a plastic kit, what is merely 'par' about the Rhino? It wasn't designed by Jes, incidentally, but by Tim Adcock. Jes designed the Land Raider.

Yeah, I really don't see what's wrong with the rhino, either. Judging it purely based on looks that is, I'm sure a lot of people could go on for hours about how unrealistic the design is...

Sidstyler wrote:Judging it purely based on looks that is, I'm sure a lot of people could go on for hours about how unrealistic the design is...

But that would just be silly.

UltraPrime wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:Judging it purely based on looks that is, I'm sure a lot of people could go on for hours about how unrealistic the design is...

But that would just be silly.

I think it's very disappointing the rhino design is so unrealistic, especially when you compare the Falcon to existing grav-tanks or the stompa to the great walkers deployed at the Normandy Landings.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Phil did only an OKish job on CWE (3.5/5), and Jes' mk.II Rhino is merely par (2.5/5).

Now you are just nitpicking for ammo to use against Dark Eldar. And yes, Jes didn't do the final Rhino, shame on you.

Sidstyler wrote:Yeah, I really don't see what's wrong with the rhino, either. Judging it purely based on looks that is, I'm sure a lot of people could go on for hours about how unrealistic the design is...

The rhino looks almost exactly like a real life APC. I'd say I'd be amazed if someone thought it was unrealistic, but hell, this is the Internet, we have all sorts of "good" posters here.

Still no leaked pics then. GW are boring they could at least throw us a bone.

A GW manager revealed that GW wants to make the announcment of 8th Warhammer Fantasy edition the mother of all GW marketing campaigns, which resulted in them saying: "New edition in July, game features humans, elves and orks." That's it. Don't expect more from their DE marketing

I think Phil did a great job with Eldar. I mean, it's still a very powerful, competitive army without needing to really spam vehicles. Though the SC change was asinine and they still aren't worth the points.

So I give it 4.5/5. The new LR is ace though. 5/5 for the LR.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Ok - now lets see you pack 10 'roid-monkeys in power armor into it

JohnHwangDD wrote:Phil did only an OKish job on CWE (3.5/5), and Jes' mk.II Rhino is merely par (2.5/5).

Tailgunner wrote:Merely 'par' with what?

Jes designed the Land Raider.

par with all of the other vehicles in the GW universe. And for the record, the DE at time of release were generally at par (Warriors above par).

Actually, Jes' Land Raider is not a huge plus in my book. Ground clearance is abyssmal, needing almost another 1/4" to look right.
____

BrookM wrote:Now you are just nitpicking for ammo to use against Dark Eldar.

And yes, Jes didn't do the final Rhino, shame on you.

You're reading more than what I'm saying. I'm only saying that Jes' work isn't perfect. It's very consistently good, but you never know what'll be the result until the model comes out. Now, if there were some pics to see...

Sorry about thinking that. I though Jes did all of the SM plastics, and I WAS WRONG!

*permission granted to quote the bolded part for posterity.
____

Fateweaver wrote:I think Phil did a great job with Eldar. I mean, it's still a very powerful, competitive army without needing to really spam vehicles. So I give it 4.5/5.

The new LR is ace though. 5/5 for the LR.

"Classic" Craftworld Biel-Tan with massive Aspect spam is largely unplayable. Transports are vastly overpriced. Un-fluffy Guardian spam supported. Poor ranged firepower. The rest is OK, hence the 3.5/5 rating. In the context of the current Codices, it's a clear nerf.

The Land Raider is better than the ("new") Russ, but needs work.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Squeeeeee!

I feel like a pre-teen girl who's just discovered a video of Edward and Jacob necking. That's so hot.

What's it from?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

par with all of the other vehicles in the GW universe. And for the record, the DE at time of release were generally at par (Warriors above par).

DE warriors above par? If that's your baseline I must protest your lack of common sense and assault on decency, sir. Uninspired design, flaccid sculpting which encouraged non-dynamic poses (for arguably the most flexible and agile race) and poor anatomy. Back that up with a lack of options, it has always been the weakest of all of the plastic 40k troops.

DE warriors above par? If that's your baseline I must protest your lack of common sense and assault on decency, sir. Uninspired design, flaccid sculpting which encouraged non-dynamic poses (for arguably the most flexible and agile race) and poor anatomy. Back that up with a lack of options, it has always been the weakest of all of the plastic 40k troops.

They were always hopeless ugly things. I seem to recall one of the earliest DE articles was on converting them to have more dynamic poses.

Mastiff wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote: And for the record, the DE at time of release were generally at par (Warriors above par).

DE warriors above par? If that's your baseline I must protest your lack of common sense and assault on decency, sir. Uninspired design, flaccid sculpting which encouraged non-dynamic poses (for arguably the most flexible and agile race) and poor anatomy. Back that up with a lack of options, it has always been the weakest of all of the plastic 40k troops.

See the highlight? That's the critical bit.

DE plastic Warriors came out over a decade ago, back in 1998. They were easily-convertible plastic. Very good models at the time, definitely better than average. At the time, the only competitive plastics were the Space Marines and Empire troops.

Dig out your 1998 Catalog if you don't believe me. Go through the Warhammer 5E stuff in detail and tell me if you can still make that statement. Check out the big-hands Zoanthrope, Nagash, and the Von Carstein Vampires in particular. Within context, the DE really aren't so bad.

Gotta argue...er...discuss the version of the new rhino. Being a Marine and riding around in a few APC's-ish that we use, I have to say it is spot on. Land Raider? Love the new one, the old one was...odd but thats the 80's for ya.

Im looking forward to DE if Jes is doing them, I met him a few Gamesday's ago in LA (I think it was) and talked to him at length about modelling eldar and he seemed to have a real passion for it. He said something to the effect of wishing to get rid of the "pointy" helmets but the company wants to keep that appearance. It would be liking getting rid of space marines giant useless shoulder pads...I mean are shoulders that vulnerable in the future? Anyways, thats my 2 pennies.

With reading someother posts...another 2 pennies...Im not sure we will see dark eldar too soon. With the release of the daemon next wave (finally) coinciding with 8th ed fantasy, it looks like Daemonhunters will be next.

Father Gabe wrote:Im looking forward to DE if Jes is doing them, I met him a few Gamesday's ago in LA (I think it was) and talked to him at length about modelling eldar and he seemed to have a real passion for it. He said something to the effect of wishing to get rid of the "pointy" helmets but the company wants to keep that appearance. It would be liking getting rid of space marines giant useless shoulder pads...I mean are shoulders that vulnerable in the future? Anyways, thats my 2 pennies.

You wouldn't believe. I'm doing some freelance illustration work for FFG on the Deathwatch line and man, do GW have some strict guidelines in regards to Marines. It's like they put a standard pattern Marine in Sevres and now have to adhere to it by the milliliter. Or maybe they're just asinine towards FFG, I don't know.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Mastiff wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote: And for the record, the DE at time of release were generally at par (Warriors above par).

DE warriors above par? If that's your baseline I must protest your lack of common sense and assault on decency, sir. Uninspired design, flaccid sculpting which encouraged non-dynamic poses (for arguably the most flexible and agile race) and poor anatomy. Back that up with a lack of options, it has always been the weakest of all of the plastic 40k troops.

See the highlight? That's the critical bit.

DE plastic Warriors came out over a decade ago, back in 1998. They were easily-convertible plastic. Very good models at the time, definitely better than average. At the time, the only competitive plastics were the Space Marines and Empire troops.

Dig out your 1998 Catalog if you don't believe me. Go through the Warhammer 5E stuff in detail and tell me if you can still make that statement. Check out the big-hands Zoanthrope, Nagash, and the Von Carstein Vampires in particular. Within context, the DE really aren't so bad.

Naaah. They were still below par, even before they were officially released.

Purely going by plastics, they were bottom of the offerings at the time. Marines set the baseline, and were superior. Marines, along with Empire, proved plastics didn't need to sacrifice personality for convenience. The plastic DE did just that. You can go back even further to GW's first trials with plastics. The Imperial Guard and eldar plastic/metal hybrids were better than the DE. The two-piece eldar plastics were better.

The DE were a step back whether you compare to their metal counterparts, or the previous plastic offerings.

"Zoanthrope, Nagash, and the Von Carstein Vampires". Yep, none should have been released. But they weren't plastic, they weren't troops, and they would get half a star at best out of five. Zero if you want to throw Lemartes in there.

Strangely enough, 1998 is the only Catalogue I own, though it's buried somewhere. Most armies, whether fantasy or 40k, had solid troops at the time. DE Warriors were a bland setback.

Father Gabe wrote:

Hey, nice avatar. Where'd you get it?
____

Mastiff wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:DE plastic Warriors came out over a decade ago, back in 1998. They were easily-convertible plastic. Very good models at the time, definitely better than average. At the time, the only competitive plastics were the Space Marines and Empire troops.

Dig out your 1998 Catalog if you don't believe me. Go through the Warhammer 5E stuff in detail and tell me if you can still make that statement. Check out the big-hands Zoanthrope, Nagash, and the Von Carstein Vampires in particular. Within context, the DE really aren't so bad.

Purely going by plastics, they were bottom of the offerings at the time. Marines set the baseline, and were superior. Marines, along with Empire, proved plastics didn't need to sacrifice personality for convenience.

"Zoanthrope, Nagash, and the Von Carstein Vampires". Yep, none should have been released. But they weren't plastic, they weren't troops, and they would get half a star at best out of five. Zero if you want to throw Lemartes in there.

At the time the DE plastics were released, GW was still selling the 5-man / 6-man mini-boxes of mono-pose plastics. The DE plastics were clearly superior to Chaos' plastic PM and zerks. And the old WE plastics? Ugh. Like the WFB Empire State Troops, the plastic SM set a new standard for 40k which is only now being generally met or exceeded. But to say that the DE plastics were bad willfully ignores all of the other plastics available at the time, including the SHulk Termies.

Those old metals are comparison points for the rest of the DE line - the much-derided Grotesques, for example aren't nearly as bad as those. And some of the metals (e.g. Lilith) are actually quite decent. Even today, the Talos compares favorably to the recently-redone Dark Elf Cauldron.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Even today, the Talos compares favorably to the recently-redone Dark Elf Cauldron.

The shape is still very cool for me. But assembly...

(And I still have some monopose plastic Wood Elves from 4th-5th edition LOL)

Oh, I don't want to talk about building Talos... That's evil.

Fateweaver wrote:IF? IF?

You doubt the awesomeness that is the team of Phil and Jes?

Heretic.

The models, I am sure, will rock if Jes is doing them. The codex will be good to great, with the only "IF" being how much the Marketing department forces "sell these new models!" down their throat rather than trusting Goodwin + Kelly to do the job on their own.

Am I the only one who acctually still like the look of the DE Warriors?
Sure, they aren't fantastic, but they are easy to convert, has nice weapon options on their sprues and look good on the battlefield.

I really don't know how they are supposed to be improved and I'm probably going to bitch about the new ones when they're released

...If it ain't broken, then you probably haven't tried to improve it enough.

The DE warriors aren't HORRIBLE IMO, but not good either. You shave off the spikes and you're getting somewhere. But damn near everything else—wyches, reaver jetbikes, archons, scourges, et al.—were vile, and not in a cool goth way. Just VILE. I've wanted DE for years and it's been the model line that's kept me from it and I've never felt like converting a bunch of dark elves or non-GW models just to play them. The model redoux alone is what I'm looking for. I will make the codex suffice provided it still has that similar hit-and-run, glass cannon play style.

Skarboy wrote:I will make the codex suffice provided it still has that similar hit-and-run, glass cannon play style.

Glass cannon my arse. I had a squad of Marines tied up for three turns with a squad of DE warriors. Wound up losing the game because of that, too.

Breotan wrote:

Skarboy wrote:I will make the codex suffice provided it still has that similar hit-and-run, glass cannon play style.

Glass cannon my arse. I had a squad of Marines tied up for three turns with a squad of DE warriors. Wound up losing the game because of that, too.

I've had one guardsman take out 10 terminators before, so what?

Enigma wrote:Am I the only one who acctually still like the look of the DE Warriors?

Yes!
And you won't like them either, if you see the new models

JohnHwangDD wrote:par with all of the other vehicles in the GW universe. And for the record, the DE at time of release were generally at par (Warriors above par).

Actually, Jes' Land Raider is not a huge plus in my book. Ground clearance is abyssmal, needing almost another 1/4" to look right.

I still don't get this. At the time of the Mkii Rhino's release, it was something of a step forward in terms of quality and design. While it was based on the Land Raider template, the fit is better and the details are crisper. It's still a fantasy model, so it's got its quirks (principally the weird multiple engines), but given that that basic Rhino design was retained, it's a nice model, and a versatile one.

To dismiss the Land Raider just because of its unrealistic ground clearance is pointless. It's a universe where sponson weapons are common, people charge out of frontally-mounted ramps and vehicles engage each other at point blank range. In that context, ground clearance (like realistic suspension design) becomes a bit irrelevant.

What matters is whether a model looks 'right' in the context of the game universe. The problem with most of the Dark Eldar models is that they were poorly animated and aspects of the designs were just plain ugly. The decision to go with a bondage theme, for instance, resulted in the bug-eyed heads on the Reaver riders while the Wyches look more like badly dressed exotic dancers than ferocious warriors. The plastic Warriors went together quite well, and looked acceptable with all the spikes removed, but they were pretty uninspired. I know - I built 5 squads of them, and I'd run out of different poses after I'd built 10. I don't think they can be described as 'par'; as Mastiff said, they were a step down from the Marines. Remember that the Brian Nelson-designed plastic Orks appeared soon after the plastic DE, and they still look great 10 years later. By that standard, the Warriors were pretty poor.