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P294 in False Gods seems to say that they get defeated by the Imperium in the end. If the Imperium is good at one thing, it's beating up on weaker races

All 40k races are good at beating up weaker races. Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, etc. 40k is survival of the fittest, only the strongest races can survive and claim a place as a galactic power.

The "imperium" did not steal the chaos blade. Erebus did. And he had been swayed by chaos without Horus' knowledge for some time before.

The interex handled the situation incorrectly and started a fight with Horus' men. Bad choice. Horus at that time was not under the influence of corruption and chaos and would have more than likely helped the interex track down the person who stole the blade. The interex jumped to conclusions and started the fight. From the Interex Warhammer 40k wiki:

"The Interex's government was in diplomatic talks with Horus and his peers when Erebus of the Word Bearers, a Space Marine Chaplain tainted by the powers of Chaos Undivided, infiltrated an Interex museum of technology called the Hall of Devices housing alien artefacts and weapons, stole the Kinebrach Anathame and rigged the building to explode, which only affirmed the Interex's initial fears about the Imperial forces and inaugurated an unfortunate war between the two human cultures."

Yes, they suspected all of them of foul play. But they did not follow correct diplomatic procedure afterwards.

Tadashi wrote:
All 40k races are good at beating up weaker races. Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, etc. 40k is survival of the fittest, only the strongest races can survive and claim a place as a galactic power.

And my comment was made in jest, you forgot to include the '' in your quote.

The Imperium are also pretty good at beating up other races, as well as getting beaten up by them too.

IronSnake wrote:The "imperium" did not steal the chaos blade. Erebus did. And he had been swayed by chaos without Horus' knowledge for some time before.

The interex handled the situation incorrectly and started a fight with Horus' men. Bad choice. Horus at that time was not under the influence of corruption and chaos and would have more than likely helped the interex track down the person who stole the blade. The interex jumped to conclusions and started the fight. From the Interex Warhammer 40k wiki:

"The Interex's government was in diplomatic talks with Horus and his peers when Erebus of the Word Bearers, a Space Marine Chaplain tainted by the powers of Chaos Undivided, infiltrated an Interex museum of technology called the Hall of Devices housing alien artefacts and weapons, stole the Kinebrach Anathame and rigged the building to explode, which only affirmed the Interex's initial fears about the Imperial forces and inaugurated an unfortunate war between the two human cultures."

Yes, they suspected all of them of foul play. But they did not follow correct diplomatic procedure afterwards.

Oh jebus

This Interex versus Imperium just keeps going on

Pilau Rice wrote:
Not entirely, i'm just trying to convey the other side of the story, as you are with the Imperium.

Understood.

And I said, until proven otherwise, the Imperium.

Okay, from what I can interpret the Interex thought the Impeium stole their weapon and set their building on fire and thus felt that they were under siege. Is this what you're saying?

Yes, because pointing weapons at each other is how all situations are resolved.

Ever heard of the term M.A.D? Thats what I was thinking with both sides keeping their guns on each other until the situation can be explained.

Not really, but do you have proof that they wouldn't?

Then we are at an impasse on this issue and thus should stop talking about that.

If this is the case it's surprising how any planets willingly joined the Imperium during the Great Crusade if there was no trust. Perhaps the Interex should just have attacked Horus fleet straight away. Once again shoot first and ask questions later seems to be your way of thinking.

Just because you don't like someone or trust them doesn't mean you don't deal with them as 'allies' or be at peace with them. Do you have any understanding of politics whatsoever?

How is someone killing one of your civilians, burning down a valued building and stealing an artifact small?

Yes, it is small. In real world politics which Galactic politics should emphasize even more, the death of a single person is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter what the crime was, the forces of Horus decided not to assist the Interex and left them with no choice but to use force.

No. The Interex acted foolishly, not that the Imperials acted better, that let a situation that could have been decided peacefully turn into a bloodbath. Why are you changing positions? Earlier, you agreed with me that both sides acted foolishly. Demanding a foreign diplomat to just disarm without giving reasons and not even giving good reasons(I mean saying it garbled) is just bad form. Instead of trying to handle things diplomatically against a power superior to them, they decide to go the route of "must kill".

P294 in False Gods seems to say that they get defeated by the Imperium in the end. If the Imperium is good at one thing, it's beating up on weaker races

Thats just pathetic. So much for the "great Interex".

It could be, but there isn't a source to say that it is a Chaos weapon as far as I know, just a sentient blade created by the Kinebrach.

Thats interesting. Is it sentient due to AI? Because if not, then the only answer is daemonic. Unless, you have a better answer?.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
All 40k races are good at beating up weaker races. Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, etc. 40k is survival of the fittest, only the strongest races can survive and claim a place as a galactic power.

And my comment was made in jest, you forgot to include the '' in your quote.

The Imperium are also pretty good at beating up other races, as well as getting beaten up by them too.

IronSnake wrote:The "imperium" did not steal the chaos blade. Erebus did. And he had been swayed by chaos without Horus' knowledge for some time before.

The interex handled the situation incorrectly and started a fight with Horus' men. Bad choice. Horus at that time was not under the influence of corruption and chaos and would have more than likely helped the interex track down the person who stole the blade. The interex jumped to conclusions and started the fight. From the Interex Warhammer 40k wiki:

"The Interex's government was in diplomatic talks with Horus and his peers when Erebus of the Word Bearers, a Space Marine Chaplain tainted by the powers of Chaos Undivided, infiltrated an Interex museum of technology called the Hall of Devices housing alien artefacts and weapons, stole the Kinebrach Anathame and rigged the building to explode, which only affirmed the Interex's initial fears about the Imperial forces and inaugurated an unfortunate war between the two human cultures."

Yes, they suspected all of them of foul play. But they did not follow correct diplomatic procedure afterwards.

Oh jebus

What?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Ever heard of the term M.A.D? Thats what I was thinking with both sides keeping their guns on each other until the situation can be explained.

Yes, once again, because pointing guns at each other is how situations which could lead to violence get resolved.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Just because you don't like someone or trust them doesn't mean you don't deal with them as 'allies' or be at peace with them. Do you have any understanding of politics whatsoever?

Do you?

Clearly you're opinion is might is right and the Imperium can do no wrong. The Interex extended a hand to Horus and the Imperium and when things went awry because of the actions of one of their members, they tore the hand off. They could have acted as peaceful ambassadors but they didn't, first sign of trouble and out come the guns.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Yes, it is small. In real world politics which Galactic politics should emphasize even more, the death of a single person is irrelevant.

Well i'm glad you're not in charge if that's your attitude.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:INo. The Interex acted foolishly, not that the Imperials acted better, that let a situation that could have been decided peacefully turn into a bloodbath. Why are you changing positions? Earlier, you agreed with me that both sides acted foolishly. Demanding a foreign diplomat to just disarm without giving reasons and not even giving good reasons(I mean saying it garbled) is just bad form. Instead of trying to handle things diplomatically against a power superior to them, they decide to go the route of "must kill".

And so is allowing one of your members to go off murder, steal and destroy. The Imperium acted foolishly, Horus wanted to try diplomacy, when they were accused of crimes they weren't willing to comply with the instructions of their hosts i.e to disarm. The Imperial forces left the Interex with no choice. I haven't changed position at all, I agreed that both handed the situation badly. But neither side gave the other much choice.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Thats interesting. Is it sentient due to AI? Because if not, then the only answer is daemonic. Unless, you have a better answer?.

Why is the only answer daemonic when it's not described as being so? Something can be sentient without it being a daemon or a machine. We're talking about a universe here where pretty much anything is possible.

They did not allow or officially sanction Erebus' theft of the blade.

The most funny thing is that the only thing keeping Mankind together is their faith in the God Emperor.

Brother Coa wrote:The most funny thing is that the only thing keeping Mankind together is their faith in the God Emperor.

I disagree. Humanity, as a naturally social being would still band together, if not on so grand a scale. In fact, if not for the Emperor, humans could have turned out to be a far less genocidal race.

*The tigers disagree*

Had the Emperor not united mankind, humanity would be in shambles. Much in the same way it was before unification. Waiting in weakness for the stronger races of the galaxy to consume them.



For the tyranids, I mean this literally.

IronSnake wrote:Had the Emperor not united mankind, humanity would be in shambles. Much in the same way it was before unification.

Imagine all Mankind colonies across the stars as an Empire for itself. Now devide those empires to hundred of little states just like our Earth today.
Without the Emperor our race would be extinct. I don't see how this is a bad thing, to unite our race so that we can survive?

GW has basically laid out the story to say as much.

The Emperor = good
The High Lords of Terra = bad

The Emperor is in a position he never wanted to be in. And it was never his intention to be praised and worshipped as a God, even though he is one. This is the way the story is laid out. GW has never said "The emperor is evil and had bad intentions when unifying humanity mwuahahaha".

Captain Knight wrote:Most people think that the imperium is going to fall, but really is it. The great threat of the Tyranids is doomed as the necrons dont want pesky bugs running over their galaxy. The tau will be masacred by the Tyrandis before the crons get 'em. The dark eldar will destroy the remenants of the eldar whilst they weaken the dark eldar so they can be destroyed by the necrons and space marines. The orks will be jealous of all the fighting and go to war with everyone and get killed by the crons before the metal warriors move onto chaos and then there will be one epic clash between the imperium the orks and the crons who will win?

Chaos?

IronSnake wrote:GW has basically laid out the story to say as much.
The Emperor = good
The High Lords of Terra = bad
The Emperor is in a position he never wanted to be in. And it was never his intention to be praised and worshipped as a God, even though he is one. This is the way the story is laid out. GW has never said "The emperor is evil and had bad intentions when unifying humanity mwuahahaha".

I disagree with the inherent superiority of an individual because of their genetic make-up. The Emperor believed that sentient life that wasn't human was inferior. The Emperor was plenty "bad" by my definition. The Emperor was Good for humanity, but maybe humanity isn't what is the greatest good for the galaxy.

Brother Coa wrote:

IronSnake wrote:Had the Emperor not united mankind, humanity would be in shambles. Much in the same way it was before unification.

Imagine all Mankind colonies across the stars as an Empire for itself. Now devide those empires to hundred of little states just like our Earth today.
Without the Emperor our race would be extinct. I don't see how this is a bad thing, to unite our race so that we can survive?

Humanity wouldn't have gone extinct without the Emperor. It might not have developed as fast, and it certainly wouldn't be dependant on a space dragon for its technology, but it'd still be reasonably united, and probably be holding up better since it would have a smaller area to be assaulted by evils, it wouldn't have genetically engineered super soldiers trying to kill it, and it might have allied with the Eldar and Tau when they encountered them.

IronSnake wrote:GW has basically laid out the story to say as much.

The Emperor = good
The High Lords of Terra = bad

The Emperor is in a position he never wanted to be in. And it was never his intention to be praised and worshipped as a God, even though he is one. This is the way the story is laid out. GW has never said "The emperor is evil and had bad intentions when unifying humanity mwuahahaha".

Really, it's more

The Emperor = kind of a douche, and may have doomed us all by turning seven of his demigod sons to Chaos by being a prick to them. The other two were kind of bound to be evil sooner or later.
The High Lords = bad.

The Emperor did what must be done. Small skirmishes on the Primarchs' homeworlds meant nothing in the "big picture". Those primarchs who were not swayed by Chaos were man enough to see the Emperor's plan and galactic-wide mission/vision.

IronSnake wrote:The Emperor did what must be done. Small skirmishes on the Primarchs' homeworlds meant nothing in the "big picture". Those primarchs who were not swayed by Chaos were man enough to see the Emperor's plan and galactic-wide mission/vision.

The big picture. Anything that wasn't like him deserved to die, because it was different. That was the big picture.

CpatTom wrote:

IronSnake wrote:The Emperor did what must be done. Small skirmishes on the Primarchs' homeworlds meant nothing in the "big picture". Those primarchs who were not swayed by Chaos were man enough to see the Emperor's plan and galactic-wide mission/vision.

The big picture. Anything that wasn't like him deserved to die, because it was different. That was the big picture.

This.

He makes anybody else look nice and reasonable by comparison. He and his have probably offed more species than the Necrons, back when they were into that kind of thing, and for less good reasons

IronSnake wrote:The Emperor did what must be done. Small skirmishes on the Primarchs' homeworlds meant nothing in the "big picture". Those primarchs who were not swayed by Chaos were man enough to see the Emperor's plan and galactic-wide mission/vision.

Or maybe the ones not swayed by Chaos were the ones that the Emperor didn't turn himself or simply let the gods do it for him? Horus was totally loyal until the gods stopped the great game to sway him. Magnus would have remained loyal if if the Emperor hadn't sent Russ to arrest him when the Emperor was totally capable of talking to him from where he was. Lorgar worshipped the Emperor, and the Emperor decided to let him down gently by massacring a city to prove a point. Angron could have been a staunch ally if the Emperor had just brought the gladiators with them instead of abandoning them to die. Fulgrim... probably shouldn't have picked up that sword, but Slaanesh definitely had a hand in his legion's doom.

The roles of the primarchs could easily have been reversed.

Yes, once again, because pointing guns at each other is how situations which could lead to violence get resolved.

It worked well enough on RL Earth and thas was just a suggestion.

Do you?

Clearly you're opinion is might is right and the Imperium can do no wrong. The Interex extended a hand to Horus and the Imperium and when things went awry because of the actions of one of their members, they tore the hand off. They could have acted as peaceful ambassadors but they didn't, first sign of trouble and out come the guns.

Where are you getting these ideas that I favor this and that or that I think the Imperium were in the right on this issue?

I feel that both sides failed on this issue. What the both of us are discussing is who failed more in causing the bloodbath to insue.

Well i'm glad you're not in charge if that's your attitude.

Its not my attitude. I'm just stating an unpleasant fact about politics and power that is a fact of life whether we like it or not. Take a look at the situation with Pakistan and the US for what I mean.

And so is allowing one of your members to go off murder, steal and destroy. The Imperium acted foolishly, Horus wanted to try diplomacy, when they were accused of crimes they weren't willing to comply with the instructions of their hosts i.e to disarm. The Imperial forces left the Interex with no choice. I haven't changed position at all, I agreed that both handed the situation badly. But neither side gave the other much choice.

I agree utterly on this. What am I discussing is who fouled up more in escalating the situation from a dispute cause Horus and his team didn't want to disarm into a firefight.

Why is the only answer daemonic when it's not described as being so? Something can be sentient without it being a daemon or a machine. We're talking about a universe here where pretty much anything is possible.

Okay, then please give your theory on why is it sentient.


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Durza wrote:
Humanity wouldn't have gone extinct without the Emperor. It might not have developed as fast, and it certainly wouldn't be dependant on a space dragon for its technology, but it'd still be reasonably united, and probably be holding up better since it would have a smaller area to be assaulted by evils, it wouldn't have genetically engineered super soldiers trying to kill it, and it might have allied with the Eldar and Tau when they encountered them.

Do any of you here read the fluff for Christ's sakes? The Great Crusade was not truly meant to conquer new territory for humanity, it was a reclamation and reunification campaign. Did any of you read about the DAoT era? Humanity was on the ascendant in that era and just behind the Eldar empire in tech and makes the Tau look like children in comparison. Where else do you guys think all these human planets came from? The Emp wanted to conquer the galaxy cause human worlds have been found nearly everywhere in the galaxy.

It would not have allied with the Eldar cause the Eldar are also Xenophobic and consider humans to be lesser beings just like they consider everyone else. As for the Tau, in your dreams. If Humanity continued to advance in the time of 10,000 years they would have tech that make Tau once again look like children.

The tech stagnation of the Imperium is the fault of the Admech and not the Emperor.

CpatTom wrote:
The big picture. Anything that wasn't like him deserved to die, because it was different. That was the big picture.

Have evidence or just spouting your views?

Ascalam wrote:
This.

He makes anybody else look nice and reasonable by comparison. He and his have probably offed more species than the Necrons, back when they were into that kind of thing, and for less good reasons

Wrong. If you read the Dark Eldar codex, before they became the Dark Eldar they stole suns from across the galaxy and threw them into the Webway. This 'little' act killed millions of species. Hell, the Eldar empire itself ruled the galaxy for millions of years, who knows what they had to do to keep upstarts below them? Maybe wipe out a species as a lesson to the others. Next, the Orks have been rampaging across the galaxy for millions of years, who knows how many races they have killed in that time. We have evidence of other races xenociding each other.

Also the OldCrons nearly wiped the galaxy clean casue they hated the fact that they died. Yeah, that was a better reason then what the Emperor had . What are you smoking to cloud up that head of yours and where can I find some?

I HAVE read the dark eldar codex. I seem to have missed the paragraph that said that they killed millions of sentient species. Perhaps you can quote it ?

The vast majority of solar systems in the galaxy are not life supporting, as far as we can tell. Most don't have even remotely habitable conditions. They still have suns in them, which can be jacked by enterprising Old Eldar

In fact i don't recall the DE codex mentioning a single race being wiped out by them. The system 'withers and dies' with its sun removed, yes, but there is no mention of it being an inhabited system in there. They might have been, but it's not specified that they were.

The IOM has actually been specificially noted as having exterminated entire races just because they were filthy xenos. Sometimes right after allying with them to take out another race/force.

The ancient Eldar may have killed off species, but i doubt it, since the Orks (for example) are still around, and they're probably the most annoying race out there to the Eldar mindset

They didn't even wipe out their ancient enemies, the necrons, but just let them snooze on.

The orks may well have killed off other races, but as we weren't talking about the orks it's kindof irrelevant. I never said xenos don't kill off species either. Nice strawmanning there.

I said that the IOM has likely killed off more species than the Necrons.


IOM- Kills you just because you exist and aren't both human and an Emperor-worshipper. Will happily kill of its own species in droves on suspicion of thought-crime.
Orks- Like a good fight. They have no reason to wipe out a race entire, as this deprives them of said good fight. They are more prone to enslaving than systematic extermiantion.
Eldar- CW - Don't go in for wholescale extermination as a whole. Some craftworlds like the idea, but they don't have the resources to wipe an entire space-faring race without ludicrously good reason.
Dark Eldar- Why exterminate a whole race? It'd be like exterminating every chicken on earth, when you like the taste of chicken, and like torturing chickens. They have absolutely no reason to systematically exterminate any race, as it deprives them of a source of sustenance and labor.
Tau- Ok, they might.. Generally they prefer to recruit though.
Daemons - See Dark Eldar. Why deprive yourself of playthings and potential energy sources.
CSM- They might, but the only ones they have a major grudge against is Humanity, and they lack the resources. I could see them wiping a minor race out of pique though.
Necrons- under new canon fluff they want everyone serving them, not exterminated. I could see them exterminating a race in extreme circumstances, as a lesson to others, but it would be a calculated decision, not a kneejerk religious fanatic thing. Oldcron fluff is no longer canon, dude.


Did i miss anyone?

**edit for extension **

Ascalam wrote:I HAVE read the dark eldar codex. I seem to have missed the paragraph that said that they killed millions of sentient species. Perhaps you can quote it ?

I'm at school right now and thus can't but I can give you a wiki quote.

c. M18 - M20 The Twilight Cults - Those Eldar leading the new paradigm of total self-indulgence and the pursuit of hedonism rise in status and power within the Eldar empire until they can secede entirely from the Eldar settlements in realspace. They take up permanent residence in the Webway, from which they can plumb the depths of their decadence undistrubed by the puritans and weaklings among their own kind who warn of the dangers of such a path for the future of the Eldar race. Over time their sovereign estates within the Labyrinthine Dimension grow into entire sub-realms of the Webway, each of which is powered by the energy of a sun stolen from realspace. The star systems plunged into darkness by the Eldar's sun-theft wither and die in the freezing cold of the void, condemning millions of species to death, but the Eldar care nothing for the damage they cause.

Sorry about this. But I have school and thus can't run back to my BH to get the damn book.

he vast majority of solar systems in the galaxy are not life supporting, as far as we can tell. Most don't have even remotely habitable conditions. They still have suns in them, which can be jacked by enterprising Old Eldar

In fact i don't recall the DE codex mentioning a single race being wiped out by them. The system 'withers and dies' with its sun removed, yes, but there is no mention of it being an inhabited system in there. They might have been, but it's not specified that they were.

Who knows *shrug*?

The IOM has actually been speficially noted as having exterminated entire races.

Yes, we know that already. Whats the point of say this?

The ancient Eldar may have killed off species, but i doubt it, since the Orks (for example) are still around, and they're probably the most annoying race out there to the Eldar mindset

The Orks posed not threat to the Eldar, they posed a threat to everyone else. The fact of the matter is that empires rise and fall all the time. And in a time period of millions of years, you honestly think an empire can stay that long in power without committing heinous acts? I doubt that the Eldar empire didn't commit atrocites so as to keep their power and I don't begrudge for that. They did what they did to maitain their power like humans do the same thing.

They didn't even wipe out their ancient enemies, the necrons, but just let them snooze on.

I believe that was because they couldn't find most of the Tombworlds and thought it bes to leave them alone so as to not wake them up and have to fight the Necrons again.

The orks may well have killed off other races, but as we weren't talking about the orks it's kindof irrelevant.

No its not.

I never said xenos don't kill off species either. Nice strawmanning there.

I said that the IOM has likely killed off more species than the Necrons.

I feel in terms of Extermination numbers, OldCrons rate first, the Eldar rate second, IOM and Orks are neck and neck with Orks slightly ahead and Tau at the very last with 0.5 .


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Ascalam wrote:
IOM- Kills you just because you exist and aren't both human and an Emperor-worshipper. Will happily kill of its own species in droves on suspicion of thought-crime.

Agreed.

Orks- Like a good fight. They have no reason to wipe out a race entire, as this deprives them of said good fight. They are more prone to enslaving than systematic extermiantion.

Space Marine the video game showed otherwise.

Eldar- CW - Don't go in for wholescale extermination as a whole. Some craftworlds like the idea, but they don't have the resources to wipe an entire space-faring race without ludicrously good reason.

They would wipe out races if they had the numbers and resources but they don't. The only reason they need is if it benefits the Eldar. Anyway, I was talking about the Eldar empire.

Dark Eldar- Why exterminate a whole race? It'd be like exterminating every chicken on earth, when you like the taste of chicken, and like torturing chickens. They have absolutely no reason to systematically exterminate any race, as it deprives them of a source of sustenance and labor.

Stealing of stars can does kill races you know.

Tau- Ok, they might.. Generally they prefer to recruit though.

They wiped out the 'Reek' from a star-system for some reason that we don't know.

Daemons - See Dark Eldar. Why deprive yourself of playthings and potential energy sources.

Wrong. Killing entire species is fun for daemons and the souls of the species in question goes into the warp to be tortured and devoured by daemons.

CSM- They might, but the only ones they have a major grudge against is Humanity, and they lack the resources. I could see them wiping a minor race out of pique though.

Agreed.

Necrons- under new canon fluff they want everyone serving them, not exterminated. I could see them exterminating a race in extreme circumstances, as a lesson to others, but it would be a calculated decision, not a kneejerk religious fanatic thing.

Agreed.

Oldcron fluff is no longer canon, dude.

I know it isn't. I was just making a point.

Still the NewCrons are responsible for the death of the Old Ones and maybe because of them an Enslaver plague either swept over the galaxy or over only the Old Ones.

Oldcron fluff is no longer canon. Newcron fluff is (more's the pity)

Read my post above again. Your wikiquote is inaccurate. The codex says jack about the systems being inhabited or condemning millions of species to death.

The IOM is the only race out there (now the oldcrons are no longer canon) that i know of that has been specifically mentioned to wipe whole races out of bigotry. I'd say that is relevant.

Actually i can readily believe that the Old Eldar couul run an empire ofr millenia without atrocities, as their tech was light years ahead of everyone else. As there is nothing in the fluff saying they ever committed any atrocities (at least until the runup to the Fall) there weren't any, officially, unless you have some that you can quote?

Re the necrons: Possibly. I find it doubtful that the Old Eldar couldn't find the Tombworlds if they went looking for them, between ludicrously high tech and psyker ability. They let them lie when they were already beating them in a war before they went down for their nap, possibly because they were tired of war and could live with a respite.

Where in the fluff does it piut the eldar seconf only tom the Oldcrons in species destruction? I seem to remember in the oldcron codex that they were described as wantinfg to preserve what was left of life in the galaxy, if you're going to insist on using the oldcron book's fluff, and there is nothing else in the fluff that i've run across that makes themnearly as triggerhappy on the exterminatus button as the IOM.

The orks are also never specified in the fluff as having commited total xenocide on a race, though you're welcome to quote fluff to contradict me.


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we're playing post tennis with the edits here, so i'll give it a minute and come back

Ascalam wrote:Oldcron fluff is no longer canon. Newcron fluff is (more's the pity)

I know that. Thats why I said NewCrons and OldCrons.

Read my post above again. Your wikiquote is inaccurate. The codex says jack about the systems being inhabited or condemning millions of species to death.

I could have sworn the codex said that, I may have read it wrong. Um? I'll check it out later today when I get home and post a reply tomorrow.

The IOM is the only race out there (now the oldcrons are no longer canon) that i know of that has been specifically mentioned to wipe whole races out of bigotry. I'd say that is relevant.

We know this already but fluff also has other races committing xenocide if one just thinks about it. Take the CABAL for example and their little conspiracy.

Actually i can readily believe that the Old Eldar couul run an empire ofr millenia without atrocities, as their tech was light years ahead of everyone else. As there is nothing in the fluff saying they ever committed any atrocities (at least until the runup to the Fall) there weren't any, officially, unless you have some that you can quote?

Just because their tech is lightyears doesn't mean people won't try and muscle in as to take over the title as ruler of the galaxy and thus the Eldar have to beat them down and make an example of them. As for fluff no, as it never really talks about the full history of the Eldar empire.

Re the necrons: Possibly. I find it doubtful that the Old Eldar couldn't find the Tombworlds if they went looking for them, between ludicrously high tech and psyker ability. They let them lie when they were already beating them in a war before they went down for their nap, possibly because they were tired of war and could live with a respite.

I saw it as the Eldar not wanting to awaken the OldCrons by attacking them and once more starting a fight.

Where in the fluff does it piut the eldar seconf only tom the Oldcrons in species destruction? I seem to remember in the oldcron codex that they were described as wantinfg to preserve what was left of life in the galaxy, if you're going to insist on using the oldcron book's fluff, and there is nothing else in the fluff that i've run across that makes themnearly as triggerhappy on the exterminatus button as the IOM.

I said it was my thinking. The OldCrons were going around exterminating. The Eldar empire ruled the galaxy for millions of years doing who knows what and then the stealing suns thing. As for Exterminatus, most of the time that happens to Imperial planets to deny the Nids food and due to daemons. Is that a bad thing?

The orks are also never specified in the fluff as having commited total xenocide on a race, though you're welcome to quote fluff to contradict me.

The Orks are a belligerent race that fight for fighting's sake and have been around for millions of years. You do the math on the idea that they exterminated races is impossible.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Ascalam wrote:
IOM- Kills you just because you exist and aren't both human and an Emperor-worshipper. Will happily kill of its own species in droves on suspicion of thought-crime.

Agreed.

Orks- Like a good fight. They have no reason to wipe out a race entire, as this deprives them of said good fight. They are more prone to enslaving than systematic extermiantion.

Space Marine the video game showed otherwise.

Eldar- CW - Don't go in for wholescale extermination as a whole. Some craftworlds like the idea, but they don't have the resources to wipe an entire space-faring race without ludicrously good reason.

They would wipe out races if they had the numbers and resources but they don't. The only reason they need is if it benefits the Eldar. Anyway, I was talking about the Eldar empire.

Dark Eldar- Why exterminate a whole race? It'd be like exterminating every chicken on earth, when you like the taste of chicken, and like torturing chickens. They have absolutely no reason to systematically exterminate any race, as it deprives them of a source of sustenance and labor.

Stealing of stars can does kill races you know.

Tau- Ok, they might.. Generally they prefer to recruit though.

They wiped out the 'Reek' from a star-system for some reason that we don't know.

Daemons - See Dark Eldar. Why deprive yourself of playthings and potential energy sources.

Wrong. Killing entire species is fun for daemons and the souls of the species in question goes into the warp to be tortured and devoured by daemons.

CSM- They might, but the only ones they have a major grudge against is Humanity, and they lack the resources. I could see them wiping a minor race out of pique though.

Agreed.

Necrons- under new canon fluff they want everyone serving them, not exterminated. I could see them exterminating a race in extreme circumstances, as a lesson to others, but it would be a calculated decision, not a kneejerk religious fanatic thing.

Agreed.

Oldcron fluff is no longer canon, dude.

I know it isn't. I was just making a point.

Still the NewCrons are responsible for the death of the Old Ones and maybe because of them an Enslaver plague either swept over the galaxy or over only the Old Ones.

Orks- I don't consider any of the video games as canon fluff. If you do then fair enough, but i think the consensus was agaisnt them being canon last time this was brought up.

Eldar- we have zero fluff saying that the Old Eldar did so though.

Dark Eldar - Only if the system was inhabited. We have nothing in the fluff saying that it was. The Wiki adds that 'fact' withot basis from the fluff.

Tau - Doesn't shock me, but they haven't destroyed the entire 'Reek' race AFAIK.

Daemons - Possibly. Nothing in the Daemons book that confirms this POV though. They haven't been listed as actually destroying an entire race, as their incursions tend to be fairly small and/or localised. I'd not put it past them, but there's nothing saying that they ever have that i know of. I'll recheck my dex though, as Daemons fluff is cool.

You may have a point on the Newcrons, though it would be indirectly rather than deliberately if they did get anyone other than the Old Ones entirely destroyed.

Ascalam wrote:
Orks- I don't consider any of the video games as canon fluff. If you do then fair enough, but i think the consensus was agaisnt them being canon last time this was brought up.

I take everything as canon. Anyway, the fact of the matter is that even if the Orks don't kill and instead enslave races doesn't change things. Being a Ork save means you're going to die sooner rather than later and thus the enslaved race goes extinct.

Eldar- we have zero fluff saying that the Old Eldar did so though.

Agreed. Its speculation on my part but one that makes a great deal of sense.

Dark Eldar - Only if the system was inhabited. We have nothing in the fluff saying that it was. The Wiki adds that 'fact' withot basis from the fluff.

It appears that I could have read the fluff from the book wrong. Also, lets be frank. We are talking about a race who during this time were so evil that they birth a god of perversion. Do you really think they chose to just steal suns from starsystems that were empty of life? Instead of taking it from inhabited starsystems just to be trolls.

Tau - Doesn't shock me, but they haven't destroyed the entire 'Reek' race AFAIK.

Yes, I did mention this by saying they destroyed the Reek from the starsystem. The Reek race is still around cause the Tau have yet to run into Reek space.

Daemons - Possibly. Nothing in the Daemons book that confirms this POV though. They haven't been listed as actually destroying an entire race, as their incursions tend to be fairly small and/or localised. I'd not put it past them, but there's nothing saying that they ever have that i know of. I'll recheck my dex though, as Daemons fluff is cool.

Daemons generally don't go around trying to end species but if given a chance to do, why not? Its all the same to them.

You may have a point on the Newcrons, though it would be indirectly rather than deliberately if they did get anyone other than the Old Ones entirely destroyed.

Agreed.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Oldcron fluff is no longer canon. Newcron fluff is (more's the pity)

I know that. Thats why I said NewCrons and OldCrons.

Read my post above again. Your wikiquote is inaccurate. The codex says jack about the systems being inhabited or condemning millions of species to death.

I could have sworn the codex said that, I may have read it wrong. Um? I'll check it out later today when I get home and post a reply tomorrow.

The IOM is the only race out there (now the oldcrons are no longer canon) that i know of that has been specifically mentioned to wipe whole races out of bigotry. I'd say that is relevant.

We know this already but fluff also has other races committing xenocide if one just thinks about it. Take the CABAL for example and their little conspiracy.

Actually i can readily believe that the Old Eldar couul run an empire ofr millenia without atrocities, as their tech was light years ahead of everyone else. As there is nothing in the fluff saying they ever committed any atrocities (at least until the runup to the Fall) there weren't any, officially, unless you have some that you can quote?

Just because their tech is lightyears doesn't mean people won't try and muscle in as to take over the title as ruler of the galaxy and thus the Eldar have to beat them down and make an example of them. As for fluff no, as it never really talks about the full history of the Eldar empire.

Re the necrons: Possibly. I find it doubtful that the Old Eldar couldn't find the Tombworlds if they went looking for them, between ludicrously high tech and psyker ability. They let them lie when they were already beating them in a war before they went down for their nap, possibly because they were tired of war and could live with a respite.

I saw it as the Eldar not wanting to awaken the OldCrons by attacking them and once more starting a fight.

Where in the fluff does it piut the eldar seconf only tom the Oldcrons in species destruction? I seem to remember in the oldcron codex that they were described as wantinfg to preserve what was left of life in the galaxy, if you're going to insist on using the oldcron book's fluff, and there is nothing else in the fluff that i've run across that makes themnearly as triggerhappy on the exterminatus button as the IOM.

I said it was my thinking. The OldCrons were going around exterminating. The Eldar empire ruled the galaxy for millions of years doing who knows what and then the stealing suns thing. As for Exterminatus, most of the time that happens to Imperial planets to deny the Nids food and due to daemons. Is that a bad thing?

The orks are also never specified in the fluff as having commited total xenocide on a race, though you're welcome to quote fluff to contradict me.

The Orks are a belligerent race that fight for fighting's sake and have been around for millions of years. You do the math on the idea that they exterminated races is impossible.

DE codex timeline- pg 20 'the solar systems plunged into darkness by the eldar's star-theft wither and die in the freezing cold of the void, but the eldar care not.' no merntion of inhabited systems there. That was right before the start of the fall, so it's entirely possible, but it's not actually mentioned. I can see them trolling some pooor schmucks if it's around the time of the fall , especially right beforehand

I'm not familiar with the CABAL (i assume different ffrom DE Kabals?) I'll hit up lexicanum

I can see the Eldar Empire vaping a star system or two (never said that they were nice) but not wholescale species-cide. The fluff says jack either way, so officially, no.

I can see your POV on the Necrons, though i don't neccesarily agree with it

If exterminatus was only used to deny the nids food or torch a world irrevocably lost to chaos, i'd agree. The IOM is a bit triggerhappy with it of late in the fluff, IIRC. I may be wrong, but the incidence of exterminatus being used sems to have been climbing lately, and the condition of the planet has been less dire to call for one.

Orks may have. Their haphazard way of travelling and liking for good opponents to stick around argues against it being their standard modus operandi, unlike certain factions..

Ascalam wrote:
DE codex timeline- pg 20 'the solar systems plunged into darkness by the eldar's star-theft wither and die in the freezing cold of the void, but the eldar care not.' no merntion of inhabited systems there. That was right before the start of the fall, so it's entirely possible, but it's not actually mentioned.

Thank your for providing a quote and page number. I'll go and check out the book when I get home .

I'm not familiar with the CABAL (i assume different ffrom DE Kabals?) I'll hit up lexicanum

Its from the Horus Heresy Series. Its an alliance of aliens who plan for all of humanity to die so as to defeat Chaos or so the claim at any rate.

I can see the Eldar Empire vaping a star system or two (never said that they were nice) but not wholescale species-cide. The fluff says jack either way, so officially, no.

Agreed that the fluff says nothing. But to me its just common sense for an empire ruling for millions of years to do such acts. Lets just agree to disagree on this issue.

I can see your POV on the Necrons, though i don't neccesarily agree with it

Thats fine.

If exterminatus was only used to deny the nids food or torch a worl irrevocably lost to chaos, i'd agree. The IOM is a bit triggerhappy with it of late in the fluff, IIRC. I may be wrong, but the incidence of exterminatus being used sems to have been climbing lately, and the condition of the planet has been less dire to call for one.

The only recent Exterminatus was the one in DOW2 which if you watch all the intro's and listen carefully you'll find out why it was done.

Anyway, in the FFG books an Exterminatus was done by the Imperium on the Yu'Vath , an alien race of daemon worshipers, homeworld.

Orks may have. Their haphazard way of travelling and liking for good opponents to stick around argues against it being their standard modus operandi, unlike certain factions..

That good opponents thing is recent and was only ever done for Yarrick. Before that we never heard of the Orks doing such a thing so the 'good opponents' thing is the one that is against Modus opperandi of the Orks.

Seriously? you want me to provide sources that the Emperor instituted a policy of killing xenos? I assumed The Emperor's crusade to take the galaxy by force for humanity is common knowledge. The Imperial Truth also espouses the purity of the human form, and his manifest destiny to rule the Milky Way quite clearly. The Emperor was a bigot. He had plenty of standing exterminate on site orders.