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3 things.

1-Blood angels are by no means overpowered or in need a nerf. I think its funny how many things you mention in your above post ba can get. What are you playing? 3000 point games? Nobody has the points to run characters, ravens with blood talon dreads, predators, and razor spam in a normal game. I think you should be a bit more rational and objective when looking through their codex.

2-Making dante a regular marine character that just unlocks black rage is not a 'slight nerf'. Thats destroying a lot of the appeal of the blood angels. For me it was the modeling and painting opportunity of an all jumpers army with some sanguinary guard.

3-Complaining about the fluff makes you look stupid.

Sorry but the Pole above reinforces my point, GK and BA are blantant unpopular (as are space puppies). The reasons are because of their Overpowered rules and equipment, and the justification of these rules and Equipment is bad / poor/ stupid/ contradictory fluff.

If complaining about Fluff makes me look stupid, fine but I'm pretty sure (looking at the pole above) I'm not on my own in this. 46% of people who have voted have voted for GK, BA or SW, thats a pretty damning indictment.

The fluff has been changed and re-written and added to so often that many elements have been distorted and others (Like why the BA's have so many Assault Cannons) is a bit silly. Why do the BA get so many STC's? I don't think the Ultra's have ever found one? Or how about other chapters?

EDIT - I find your defence interesting, you don't deny it's Uber-powered, you basically say it's a none issue because you cannot field all the super units in a 2000 pt battle.

You can field alot of Razorbacks in 2000 point list, You can make a Very Choppy-Choppy Jump pack list at 2000 pts with DOA and lots of FNP and Melta guns etc. The Librarian Dread with a Frag Cannon, the Furiso Dread with Blood talons. I can go on, and on, and on. Fast Vindicators? FNP is only available to Vanilla Marine Command Squads. BA can throw priests around like confetti. Sanguinary Guard are insane, throw in death company as a random (dangerous element). Seriously be objective and compare like with like, and you will see beyond doubt BA have more options and better, more aggressive options than a Vanilla Army. Even SW's with all their extra's don't quite match the BA's for sheer choice and utility.


Mephiston is one of the top characters in the Game (six S10 WS7 I7 attacks on the charge that re roll to hit), never mind Corbulo, Sanguinor Dante, Lemartes,

mwnciboo wrote:[Thunderfire Cannons? What? A Vehicle that be destroyed by a Glance?

It's still something different that what we get. I don't complain about it because I know different chapters are going to have different stuff.

So what? You'll Rage quit if your Chapter gets a well deserved nerf? So you cannot see why all other SM players get a bit miffed at the BA's? I mean FAST TANKS? So they have the Lucius Engine, think about it, who would have that the white scars, maybe even the Iron Hands, but no lets give the BA a further (not required) buff.

He wasn't talking about a slight nerf. He was talking about rolling the chapter back into the SM Codex with only Dante and Death Company as options. Of course I would quit if that happened. I spent lots on money on Sanguinary Guard, Dreadnoughts (both furioso and DC), Preists, etc, etc, only for them all to become unusuable in the game.

And then you complain because I said I would rage quit? Why not? All my models have just become invalidated, not just one or two but a good deal of them.

The Luciius Pattern Engine has been with us since the very start. It was always on the Rhino. It was there in the days of Rhino rush? It was used to get our troops into close combat quickly. So now you complain because we can shoot tanks while moving. Considering that before hand we only had assault orientated lists and would get shoot to pieces before troundling up the field then yes, I do think that giving us some firepower was justified. How about Space Marine players just wait for the next Marine Codex to get their spot back in the sunlight instead of complaining about the current ones.

I've been playing BA since 3rd ed. I had to use that stupid FAQ while all the Space Marine players were running riot on the table top. I then had to use the stupid white dwarf article that didn't include an option for a sanguinary priest other than Corbs. I've had to do all that and I patiently waited for my codex. Meanwhile SM players complain because its their turn to wait, despite the fact that they never really have to wait long. I waited and I did it without complaining, so all the Space Marine players can just wait also.

GW HQ Discussing BA CODEX - "Oh lets give them 2 Predator Variants no-one else can have, and a special deployment type. Oh and some Uber powered CHaracters, and lets make some them in two variants normal, and Black rage. Lets then break the whole thing by having stupidly Uber-powered Snippy - Snippy Dreadnoughts, have we finished? Nah lets keep going, lets have Razorback Spamming, so they can be super-fast, super assaulty and super-mechanised, led by super-characters. Finished yet? .....Nah not yet, let's throw in that Vehicle we are working on for the GK Codex, yeah they need an edge. Opps OMG totally Forgot, these guys won't be very survivable will they? Lets give them lots of FNP options. "

Such a petty argument you have there. Wah!!! Blood Angels get all the new toys meanwhile I don't get any!!!!!

We have always had Baals since the start of time. As for the characters I'm not exactly sure what in blazes you are talking about. Mephiston is tough, but is a unit in his own right so can be picked off by enemy fire. He also doesn't get an invulnerable save. Plasma and Melta kills him and also Thundernators in close combat. The Sanguinor is a bit expensive for what he does. Dante is useful when you want Sanguinary Guard or deep strike without scattering but otherwise isn't really overpowered. Honestly your argument here just screams of bitterness. Blood Angel characters are not the unstoppable force you think they are. Sure they are good but they're a lot better out there.

Seriously I have barely scratched the surface, and you will rage quit if they nerf you slightly? I think you should be a bit more rational and objective when looking at your Codex.

Like I said, you took what I said out of context. How about we just take your army Imperial Guard and just throw them in the bin. I'm sure you won't have a problem with that, will you?

Thunderfire Cannons? What? A Vehicle that be destroyed by a Glance? You really want them have them, I'll swap all special rules for a Thunderfire

Like I said, its something different that I don't get. Didn't say I wanted or didn't want one. I usually change my army list frequently because I can't stand spamming the same routine. I would use it sometimes if I had the option and a player I played against at the weekend also used one in their list.

Bringing it back slightly more centre, I've gotta say lucky the Black Templars didn't see the BA holding hands with the 'Frakking Toasters because Baal would have been cleansed by righteous Zeal.

Once again an over exaggeration and also a cheap carricature. Your inability to argue honestly really worries me. You take what I said out of context deliberately, and then try to make it out that I was arguing against some slight nerf. No I wasn't, please read it again. I was arguing against integrating my army back into codex Space Marines and cutting back the whole army list. I would quit if that happened and I know a lot of Blood Angel players would.


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Eidolon wrote:3 things.

1-Blood angels are by no means overpowered or in need a nerf. I think its funny how many things you mention in your above post ba can get. What are you playing? 3000 point games? Nobody has the points to run characters, ravens with blood talon dreads, predators, and razor spam in a normal game. I think you should be a bit more rational and objective when looking through their codex.

2-Making dante a regular marine character that just unlocks black rage is not a 'slight nerf'. Thats destroying a lot of the appeal of the blood angels. For me it was the modeling and painting opportunity of an all jumpers army with some sanguinary guard.

3-Complaining about the fluff makes you look stupid.

Have an upvote. Good post. Exactly what I was talking about.


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mwnciboo wrote:Sorry but the Pole above reinforces my point, GK and BA are blantant unpopular (as are space puppies). The reasons are because of their Overpowered rules and equipment, and the justification of these rules and Equipment is bad / poor/ stupid/ contradictory fluff.

If complaining about Fluff makes me look stupid, fine but I'm pretty sure (looking at the pole above) I'm not on my own in this. 46% of people who have voted have voted for GK, BA or SW, thats a pretty damning indictment.

The fluff has been changed and re-written and added to so often that many elements have been distorted and others (Like why the BA's have so many Assault Cannons) is a bit silly. Why do the BA get so many STC's? I don't think the Ultra's have ever found one? Or how about other chapters?

EDIT - I find your defence interesting, you don't deny it's Uber-powered, you basically say it's a none issue because you cannot field all the super units in a 2000 pt battle.

You can field alot of Razorbacks in 2000 point list, You can make a Very Choppy-Choppy Jump pack list at 2000 pts with DOA and lots of FNP and Melta guns etc. The Librarian Dread with a Frag Cannon, the Furiso Dread with Blood talons. I can go on, and on, and on. Fast Vindicators? FNP is only available to Vanilla Marine Command Squads. BA can throw priests around like confetti. Sanguinary Guard are insane, throw in death company as a random (dangerous element). Seriously be objective and compare like with like, and you will see beyond doubt BA have more options and better, more aggressive options than a Vanilla Army. Even SW's with all their extra's don't quite match the BA's for sheer choice and utility.


Mephiston is one of the top characters in the Game (six S10 WS7 I7 attacks on the charge that re roll to hit), never mind Corbulo, Sanguinor Dante, Lemartes,

Just one nitpicking before I head home from work. Librarian Dreads do not get Frag Cannons, only standard Furiosos can have them.

I might address the rest of this later if I can be bothered.

mwnciboo wrote:

You can field alot of Razorbacks in 2000 point list

So can vanilla, wolves, templars, grey knights, as well as ig and dark eldar bringing loads of light vehicles. Whats your point?

You can make a Very Choppy-Choppy Jump pack list at 2000 pts with DOA and lots of FNP and Melta guns etc.

A list that was never good because it did 1 thing every game and was extremely vulnerable to poor rolling.



Theyre fething dreadnoughts, they get close, they get melta'd and they die.

Fast Vindicators?

Really expensive 1 gun tank that becomes useless as soon as a weapon destroyed result is rolled. I used to run 3 vindicators in my imperial fists army. They suck. Being fast for +15 points cant make something not suck.

FNP is only available to Vanilla Marine Command Squads. BA can throw priests around like confetti.

Vulkan is only available to vanilla marine armies, I wouldnt mind my jumpers having twin linked melta.

Sanguinary Guard are insane,

Yeah, they suck.

throw in death company as a random (dangerous element).

Oh noes, not the marines who move towards the nearest thing and have few good options. BA already beat up on geq fine, theres no reason to run death company.

Seriously be objective and compare like with like, and you will see beyond doubt BA have more options and better, more aggressive options than a Vanilla Army. Even SW's with all their extra's don't quite match the BA's for sheer choice and utility

Of course the BA have more aggressive options, thats always been their thing. They are an assaulty marine army. Vanilla marines do a better job of shooting, 40k is a shooting based game, so...I am not seeing what your point is. Wolves were written by Phil Kelly, who is terrible at internal codex balance. Wolves have the most utility for their good units of anything in the game. Its just that you cant do as many builds as you can with ba. But they are a stronger book.
.

Mephiston is one of the top characters in the Game (six S10 WS7 I7 attacks on the charge that re roll to hit), never mind Corbulo, Sanguinor Dante, Lemartes,

I looked through the BA codex andthe SW codex, i must say if i was to compare them the SW's are by far the least enteraining. The BA's have a semi-cool flavor, the dark angels should be in the space marine codex or they should have a cheap mini codex, i read their book and while it was a fun read their was nothing special their and i love the DA's. Not all fluff is perfect and not all armies are balanced the day Phil lets Matt Ward get hold of dark eldar and the eldar is the day i get nids.

I dont really dislike anyone, but somehow the Grey Knights dont deserve their own codex so I voted for them, same with Dark Angels.

I do indeed play the same game as you do, and frankly I am sick of people justifying their OP codexes.

yep, i agree man and i love dark angels a mini codex would be cool but no on a full priced one. If they made the DA's unique I would get a battleforce but the ravenwing one is just a white scar force. I mean why dont the Imperial Fist have one if they want to make all the big chapters have their own codex's.

Gabrial Seth wrote:yep, i agree man and i love dark angels a mini codex would be cool but no on a full priced one. If they made the DA's unique I would get a battleforce but the ravenwing one is just a white scar force. I mean why dont the Imperial Fist have one if they want to make all the big chapters have their own codex's.

Because GW has no logic or market research.

Gabrial Seth wrote: I looked through the BA codex andthe SW codex, i must say if i was to compare them the SW's are by far the least enteraining. The BA's have a semi-cool flavor, the dark angels should be in the space marine codex or they should have a cheap mini codex, i read their book and while it was a fun read their was nothing special their and i love the DA's. Not all fluff is perfect and not all armies are balanced the day Phil lets Matt Ward get hold of dark eldar and the eldar is the day i get nids.

There is a lot to hate about most codexs. I expect once more people get more games in under their belt the Necron codex is going to skyrocket to the top of the OP hate train.

Some people like the idea of Knights in space, others don't.
Some people like the idea of Vikings in space, other don't.

Hating something based on fluff/models is perfectly valid. Especially when you have to look at those ugly models for 3 hours while playing them. Or if you have to listen to the fanboy vap on about his own take on Mephiston and why he is so badass for those three hours.

Hating on special rules is just as valid. There is no reason at all for DOA to even exist. Its a buff purely for the sake of buffness. No extra points spent on it, its just a gift. Making jump infantry troops established all that needed to be said about BA being the premier jump SM jump army. DOA is just the colored sprinkles on an already sweet icing.

Most codexs have something like that, and its easy to see why it rubs people the wronge way. Its bonuses just for the sake of bonuses and does nothing to make for an even/balanced playing field.

I've often said, the only way to have an even fight in 40K is to play a Matt Ward codex against a Matt Ward codex. I can understand the hate.

It bites that out of my group that plays there are 2-3 SM players a necron player who might be going eldar and a ork player. I saw a SM vs SM battle and it was boring 2 hours of the same exact strategy.

Eidolon wrote:3-Complaining about the fluff makes you look stupid.

And complaining about complaining about the fluff doesn't?

I -HATE- the eldar.

I was actually banned from another 40k forum(s) for, and I quote, "Racism against eldar"

I may have suggested some violent forms of genocide.....

the eldar are an aquired taste i feel the same about black templars, i got tired of going to play warmachine and seeing a heavy guy with his army set up and he somehow managed to make them look horrid. But each to their own right .

Voted Necrons. Last edition they were this cool, shuffling and slow but inexorable tide of robotic undead monstrosities. Their rules and sculpts spoke of this kind of ancient, impossible to stop tide of soulless metal. Now, they're petty, bickering, million-year-old, politics laden eccentrics with pet gods. Their sculpts say the same, and somehow, now they're faster then Eldar, with higher armor and better tricksieness then the fast and tricksie races. The fact most evidence points them being OP with the 6th ed rules just makes it worse.

Horst wrote:I -HATE- the eldar.

I was actually banned from another 40k forum(s) for, and I quote, "Racism against eldar"

I may have suggested some violent forms of genocide.....

Go ahead and hate on us, filthy Mon Keigh! You cannot hope to understand the might of the Craftworlds!

King Pariah wrote:

Stormtrooper520 wrote:What's with the hate on Grey Knights?

Some pretty bad fluff for starters.

Well at least it isn't as mashed up and horrendous as Blood Angel fluff is.

Tyranids. Didnt even have to think about it. They have so many extra rules, ignore so many game mechanics, and get to field so many damn things, I always feel, every time, like I'm being cheated. That isnt the only reason I dislike them, but its the one topmost on my mind. Rather than go on a tirade, I'll just say that I dislike them based not only on their game mechanics, but their back story as well as several bad experiences with Tyranids players.

I actually dislike necrons the most. Generally because I don't like most of what they do. Next to no casualties if any, nothing ever falls into disrepair, near limitless energy resources( a single deathray has enough stored power to destroy a planet), somehow overthrowing the c'tan even though they owned their souls, and lets not forget they could destroy the galaxy without sending a single warrior out and the only reason they don't is for some odd reason of compassion.

the BA has okay fluff, the necrons talk about bad fluff i mean i like the walking DOS box now i have to think of them as being idividuals that takes away most of their fun.

Too many human factions so i hate them all and they also look so primitive for the year 40000. Hate orks too but not as much since they're kinda funny in the dow games.

Jimsolo wrote:Tyranids. Didnt even have to think about it. They have so many extra rules, ignore so many game mechanics

What mechanics do they ignore?

Space wolves have one psychic power that ignores more mechanics that every other ARMY. If your going to hate something for ignoring mechanics, they should be on top of the list for Jaws alone.

Eh, I don't dislike any faction. I suppose I like Space Marines, in general, Ultramarines, specifically, the least. But I don't particularly dislike them, and even then it's got less to do with their background or how they play and more to do with how prominent they are on the table top and how GW sorta beats us over the head with them (which is understandable from a business standpoint since they're the big money maker).

It must be a regional thing. I haven't see. Ultramarines on the table since 2nd edition. For being poster boys, they're very rare in my parts. And it's a shame, my behemoth bugs would love some payback.

Erm, I meant Space Marines in general (and I'm including the seperate-codex chapters here, generally BA and SW, as I can't recall the last BT or DA army I saw) are very prominent on the tabletop, not Ultramarines specifically but I can see that that isn't clear. Sorry!

As for the Ultramarines, I just wish the Space Marine Codex paid a bit less attention to them and a bit more to the other founding chapters that aren't represented by another codex. I'm not a big fan of the Ultramarines background, and I think it's presented in a fashion that's a bit... off putting, but in the infamous words of some meme, I ain't even mad.

Gabrial Seth wrote: I looked through the BA codex andthe SW codex, i must say if i was to compare them the SW's are by far the least enteraining. The BA's have a semi-cool flavor, the dark angels should be in the space marine codex or they should have a cheap mini codex, i read their book and while it was a fun read their was nothing special their and i love the DA's. Not all fluff is perfect and not all armies are balanced the day Phil lets Matt Ward get hold of dark eldar and the eldar is the day i get nids.

I wouldn't put Dark Angels back with Marines. They are definitely a better candidate for such a thing than Blood Angels but I wouldn't put them back in with the Marines. Players who play these armies have invested their money and time into these armies, so I wouldn't do that to them.

Every SM faction.

I can tolerate the lame over-the top fluff.

I might could get past that they are favored above other non-sm factions by the company poducing them.

I can not ever get over how ugly the models are.
Power armour legs that are smaller than the non-power armoured legs of their scouts.
Off scale Biomechanics=Terminator heads dislodged from the spine by what would be 6" to a foot if they were enlarged to their purported size.
Pauldrons are so redonculously oversized that they fall into clown shoe territory(And would allow no side to side visibility).
10 sm's in a Rhino??Really??
Don't even get me started on the S'-hawk and S'-talon

I know a lot of you will try to convince me to excuse this as heroic scale. Not buying it. Marvel does heroic scale and they look great.
Heck, Ig(except catachan arms), Deamons, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters(Aging design in need of a redo), 'Nids and Necrons all have much better models.

The only army that is really as bad in Biomechanics as the SM's are the Orks, yet it works for them. They are supposed to be comical on some level.

I don't expect any one else to feel the way that I do, These are just the reasons I will never own a SM army, unless GW completely does a redo on them...
.....Maybe True-scale, where sm's are 25% taller than an average guardsman and a termi is 40% taller. Make the current Landraiders into rhinos and convert a Baneblade to be a Landraider.
(Note, these sm ideas are not mine but rather something I read on dakka that I reallly liked the idea of.)

mwnciboo wrote:I do indeed play the same game as you do, and frankly I am sick of people justifying their OP codexes.

Like I said, I didn't complain when Space Marines were flavour of the month. I had to wait 11 years before they redid the Blood Angels codex. Meanwhile you got marine codices both in 2004 and 2008. I sat there in 2008 wondering why the hell you got a new codex when other armies hadn't been updated for YEARS!!!!! Dark Eldar were still sitting there at the time using a pathetic 2nd edition codex and now you're crying your eyes out and shreiking "OMG overpowered!!!!!!" because it's your turn to wait.

Where were you when they released The Space Marines codex in 2008? Where were your cries of overpowered then?


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LoneLictor wrote:

Eidolon wrote:3-Complaining about the fluff makes you look stupid.

And complaining about complaining about the fluff doesn't?

Well they're complaing about different things. One person is complaining about somebody elses army while the other person is complaining about their behaviour.

As far as I'm concerned complaining about bad behaviour is more acceptable than being a big cry baby because they don't like some story. So what? I don't like watching soap operas but I'm not goijng to demand that other people should stop watching them and agree with me that they are rubbish.

Time to address the rest of this

mwnciboo wrote:Sorry but the Pole above reinforces my point, GK and BA are blantant unpopular (as are space puppies). The reasons are because of their Overpowered rules and equipment, and the justification of these rules and Equipment is bad / poor/ stupid/ contradictory fluff.

Seriously? BA are overpowered? We may be a top tier army but there are a lot of armies out there better than us. These include:

1) Grey Knights

2) Space Wolves

3) Necrons (defintely in 6th edition)

4) Dark Eldar (In 5th edition, certainly not now though)

5) Imperial Guard

Thats 5 armies that can have stronger lists than any BA list.

If complaining about Fluff makes me look stupid, fine but I'm pretty sure (looking at the pole above) I'm not on my own in this. 46% of people who have voted have voted for GK, BA or SW, thats a pretty damning indictment.

So what? They don't like the story. Guess what? I don't care. I'm pretty happy with the BA fluff.

The fluff has been changed and re-written and added to so often that many elements have been distorted and others (Like why the BA's have so many Assault Cannons) is a bit silly. Why do the BA get so many STC's? I don't think the Ultra's have ever found one? Or how about other chapters?

Oh so what, everybodys fluff gets rewritten. GW call it retconning apparently.

As for STC's, you do get units that we don't and you'll get some of ours in your next codex. You get Thunderfire Cannons and Storm Talons. Yeah, Storm Talons, those things that weren't in your codex to start off with and you didn't have anything that could be counted as a flier. Meanwhile Tyranids are still waiting for the slightest sign of their flyer, but oh noes, GW cannot let the Space Marine players suffer for a second.

In your next codex you're bound to get the Stormraven, even despite the fact that Forge World decided to give you something anyway and then made The Storm Eagle for Space Marine players. Apparently you're just not willing to wait the 11 years that we did or even the longer time that Dark Eldar players had to wait for an update.

EDIT - I find your defence interesting, you don't deny it's Uber-powered, you basically say it's a none issue because you cannot field all the super units in a 2000 pt battle.

Its top tier, but they are bigger and worse armies out there. FFS the tournie scene at the end of 5th was filled with Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Imperial Guard, but apparently you think BA were winning tournies across the country for some reason.

You can field alot of Razorbacks in 2000 point list,

I've got news for you. We were fielding those Razorbacks when we were using the White Dwarf codex before we got our proper 2010 codex. Any Space Marine army can spam Razorbacks anyway and we pay a points premium for the fast upgrade for each vehicle.

You can make a Very Choppy-Choppy Jump pack list at 2000 pts with DOA and lots of FNP and Melta guns etc.

We could take assault marines as troops back in 2nd ed if I remember correctly. Giving us assault marines as troops was just a revisit back to what we once had. Besides this, so what? Dark Angels can all have Terminators as troops? Whats your point? Those Terminators could also have Feel No Pain and Cyclone Missile Launchers and Assault Cannons. Doesn't mean anything. Doesn't mean that their army is completely outrageous, just because their army composition can be slightly different from Vanilla Marines.

The Librarian Dread with a Frag Cannon

The illegal one I can't take?

the Furiso Dread with Blood talons.

You mean the one with no ranged firepower whatsoever and will be blown apart before reaching combat? The one I have to use a STORMRAVEN for in order for it survive in the first place and then you complain about us getting Stormravens also.

How about we have a match? My Furioso Dreadnought vs your Dreadnought. I bet you blow it up with a Lascannon before I even reach combat with you. Not to mention my Blood Talons are only Strength 6, meaning I will need to roll 6s just to even GLANCE you.

I can go on, and on, and on. Fast Vindicators?

Oh our vindacators are fast now. Big deal. Get over it. Aren't you the ones with Vindacators with Power of the Machine Spirit? Or was that Codex 2004? I can't remember, but anyway it's a big cheek of you to say this when you had this advantage in the past.

FNP is only available to Vanilla Marine Command Squads. BA can throw priests around like confetti.

They cost points. It's not like we get them for nothing.

It's one priest, for 50pts without any upgrades (75pts if you want to give him a jump pack). They cost a third of the whole Assault Squad they get attached to for one guy with one wound. Freaking heck. He's not exactly hard to target and kill in combat either, well in 5th ed he wasn't. He is an independent character so you just say "I'm going to direct these attacks against your priest" and BLAM!!!! he's dead. It's way too soon to tell how good he will be under 6th but I'm actually betting a lot better.

Sanguinary Guard are insane,

Would this be The Sanguinary Guard nobody used in 5th because they were so easily killed? Honestly? You're complaing about Sanguinary Guard? 2+ armour means nothing against Plasma guns you know. Five in a squad for 200pts, oh yes, I would see why you would be so upset at them. /sarcasm

throw in death company as a random (dangerous element).

You mean those guys who were led around the board doing nothing for entire games because in 5th ed, rage meant they had to move towards the closest unit? No matter how small and insignificant?

Seriously be objective and compare like with like, and you will see beyond doubt BA have more options and better, more aggressive options than a Vanilla Army.

Thats your problem. You want me to compare them to Vanilla Marines and NOT the rest of the game. Nobody denies that your Vanilla Marines are not top tier anymore. However why should I accept that standard? There are more armies than yours in the game. You are not the be all and end all of the game. GW give you two codices in four years and all of a sudden you now complain because you no longer at the top of the chain. It won't be long before you get another one, meanwhile other armies have to wait over a decade for an update. I had to wait 11 years for one and Dark Eldar had to wait even longer. They are the ones I really feel sorry for. Not your Vanilla Marines but Dark Eldar. Wait years upon years for a new codex, they get one, and it's great and they all spend money and then when 6th came along they get hammered to shreds and Wytches become useless.

Even SW's with all their extra's don't quite match the BA's for sheer choice and utility.

Sorry, can you repeat that? I didn't hear you because those Long Fangs behind me were firing their five missile launchers at two squads on the other side of the battlefield.

Mephiston is one of the top characters in the Game (six S10 WS7 I7 attacks on the charge that re roll to hit), never mind Corbulo, Sanguinor Dante, Lemartes,

Mephiston flunked out in a character tournie and didn't even make the final stages. The Sanguinor is actually better than Mephiston in a character vs character situation. I find it completely laughable that you are complaining about Mephiston in such a manner. Yes, he is good, but he is not unstoppable and there is plenty that can kill him. HE DOESN'T GET AN INVULNERABLE SAVE. He is vulnerable to AP2 weapons. Plasma, Melta, Powerfists, Thunderhammers, Warscythes, Power Axes, Rending, etc, etc. A unti of Death Company could take care of Mephiston in Close Combat, just give them Powerfists, Thunderhammers and Infernus pistols. All you need in a space marine army is Terminators with Thunderhammers and Storm Shields and you will MAUL HIM, not just beat him, not just scrape the fight, but you will UTTERLY DESTROY HIM and thats in close combat which is supposed to be Mephys speciality. Mephiston is better suited for taking care of vehicles and normal infantry.

Stormtrooper520 wrote:

King Pariah wrote:

Stormtrooper520 wrote:What's with the hate on Grey Knights?

Some pretty bad fluff for starters.

Well at least it isn't as mashed up and horrendous as Blood Angel fluff is.

You can at least justify how Draigo survives the warp - with uber faith in the emperor that's strong enough to burn a daemon.

But mephiston... A hab-block fell on him, and somehow three days later (or was it seven? It was a magical number), survived the [black rage/red thirst] and insta-killed a horde of orks when he suddenly for no reason jumped out of several thousand tonnes of rubble.

Which is more viable, I wonder..