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Elector wrote: But that goes hand in hand with showing the other party your list prior to the game. It's just a courtesy to ensure an even, fair fight..

Honestly I blame the lack of "fair" on terribly unbalanced GW rules. In a proper system XXX points of one army should be balanced against the same points value of another army. A big part of that is what playtesting is for. When a particular unit, character, etc is "a great value for the points", then it should probably cost more points. Thats why, IMO, a construction system is vital to game design. X stat should be worth X points, no matter what. Even if the system isnt released to the public, it should at least be used in house while designing units.

Thank you, if I wanted to read about politics I could just look out the window at the courthouse

Brometheus wrote:Thank you, if I wanted to read about politics I could just look out the window at the courthouse

Shouldn't that be:

Thank you, if I wanted to watch politics I could just look out the window at the legislature.

Just saying...

Stoupe wrote:
Appearantly mentioning over and over again how they are banned in the majority of GTs is nothing more than arguing that they are op.

Ummm....So?

Who cares if they are banned at GTs? How does them being banned at GTs mean you are a douche for fielding them? Being better than another SC doesn't make you a douche for fielding them.

Plenty of GTs and other Tournies have some pretty stupid list rulings anyway, they aren't the be all and end all of the gaming world.

pretre wrote:

Brometheus wrote:Thank you, if I wanted to read about politics I could just look out the window at the courthouse

Shouldn't that be:

Thank you, if I wanted to watch politics I could just look out the window at the legislature.

Just saying...

Ah, you're right. That's what I get for only being a grunt.

Closest thing I have become to being TFG is that when I tried necrons i had the pdf on the comp and i thought i knew the rules for them, and got one wrong and persistently defended it until a rather veteran friend of mine showed me where I was wrong. Nowadays with him I tend to just go with the fact that I am wrong and he is right, thus far it hasnt failed me yet.

I have Teclis in my HE list because I like the fluff behind him. Am I TFG? Seriously though, some of these people sound like right disagreeable chaps. I'm glad I didn't have too many at my old FLGS.

If SC are bad in fantasy, I can only imagine if FW goes into fantasy too. Not played in a while though, so for all I know it has.

I've had some terrible games agains some folks.

But it wasn't always their fault.

The old Dakka Dakka building had very low ceilings and limited floor space. I was playing in the Armageddon mega-battle and my opponent was a very large man who had driven 6 hours that morning to get to the mega-battle. It was summer so the building was hot and humid. With something like 26 gamers there it was a bit uncomfortable. This guy was super-stressed out the whole time and kept arguing with me over everything. It was obvious that he didn't like a kid (back then) telling him the correct way to read the rules. I had had enough and was ready to pack up and go. Luckily lunch break came and a fantastic gamer, who taught me quite a bit about the gaming community and mathhammer, came up to me and asked if I'd like to go to a vegan restaurant. Specifically to get away from the very large man. He told me to calm down and let the big guy stress himself and not me. After the break I took his advice and due to a much clearer head gained victory.

However there are always going to be losers. Once I played a teen who had an "iron cross, it's not nazis" army... yet he constantly bragged about his german ancestry. He goes first to place terrain and puts a bunker in his deployment. Then surrounds the bunker with forest templates. Then puts his whole army in the forest/bunker. I being a simple friendly gamer put my terrain in a basic spread. After a few turns I just said to hell with it and just packed up my models. I haven't seen this kid in years but if I ever run across him again I would refuse any games.

Also I'd have to say most children...

I won't play a kid more than once if he doesn't have the right attidude and stays focused. Sure I need a smoke a few times a game but I'm not listening to convos across the room and then leave the table to go put my 2 cents in where it wasn't wanted in the first place.

Hesh_Tank_On wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:The BNP are scum, far right wing racists and bigots, the closest we've got to a nazi party, fortunately they haven't got any seats in Parliament. Far from just disagreeing with them, any decent person wouldn't even associate with them.

I think its a sad state of affairs when you think its you that decide who is decent and who is not. I take people at face value when playing warhammer. The only bigot I can see is you.

I'm the 'bigot' because I call a spade a spade when we're talking about BNP supporters. A political party that restricts its members list to white-only people. You want to defend people like that against my 'bigotry', we'll just have to disagree. I would not choose to spend my social time with them.

Hesh_Tank_On wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:The BNP are scum, far right wing racists and bigots, the closest we've got to a nazi party, fortunately they haven't got any seats in Parliament. Far from just disagreeing with them, any decent person wouldn't even associate with them.

I think its a sad state of affairs when you think its you that decide who is decent and who is not. I take people at face value when playing warhammer. The only bigot I can see is you.

Wow, how the hell did i miss this?! Have a look at the BNP, a REAL look, then try asking who gets to decide who is decent and who isn't...

This comment has nothing to do with Warhammer, and rightly shouldn't since it isn't anything to do with the game. it DOES however touch on a political party who's main 'theme' is that of racism, and therefore is a perfectly valid point when considering choosing an opponent to play.

learn what you are talking about before you comment.

That really bigoted guy that thinks he knows everything about politics, and starts talking about it during my assault phase.

Really guys? I'm sure OT could use another political thread.

Glad to see another decent thread ruined by politics.

Legion of Damnation wrote:I have Teclis in my HE list because I like the fluff behind him. Am I TFG? Seriously though, some of these people sound like right disagreeable chaps. I'm glad I didn't have too many at my old FLGS.

Well that depends, what else is in your list. Is he in a huge unit of pheonix guard with the banner of the world dragon and whatever else people hate about him? If so, that doesn't seem to be really fluffy, he'd probably hang with a different special choice of yours.

a political party who's main 'theme' is that of racism

So being concerned about the demographic and cultural damage to one's country being done by unchecked third world immigration, PC-gone-nuts laws, and the utter failure of multi-culturalism is somehow "racist"? (whatever that over-used marxist contruct of a word means anyway...) Is it any wonder that over-use and mis-use of the term has caused accusations of "racism" to become pretty meaningless when it comes to political discussion? "Racist" has become today's version of the "N-word". It's a nasty little slur designed and used to marginalize and silence whole groups of people. I look forward to the day when people who use it as a "shut up word" are considered as much of outcasts as those who use racial slurs in polite conversation.

and therefore is a perfectly valid point when considering choosing an opponent to play.

Really? So your wargaming opponents have to pass some sort of political litmus test? Ideally you should never know what your opponent's political views are unless he feels the need to preach at the gaming table. If he does something like that, then he's crossed the line into being rude and engaging in inapropriate behavior regardless of the specifics of his politics. That would be the case no matter what his views were. As for me, I judge my opponents on how they behave in the social setting of the game table and how they interact with me, rather than say "Oh noes! He's a mean ol' poopyhead with politics I disagree with! I can't play him now!" Which aproach is the more mature and reasonable?


TR

Dont want to de-rail the thread any more than i have already, Trench Raider, would you be adverse to continuing this via PM?

Trench-Raider wrote:So being concerned about the demographic and cultural damage to one's country being done by unchecked third world immigration, PC-gone-nuts laws, and the utter failure of multi-culturalism is somehow "racist"?

No, they fact they fought hard through the courts to preserve the part of their constitution which says only white people can join their party makes them racist. How much more clear cut does it need to be? You need to make an examination of their conduct over several years before leaping to their defence.

I don't want to de-rail the thread either, though I thought it was within the topic of the thread. The point was that I don't associate with racists and homophobes, which is what the BNP proudly stand for. I don't want to play TFG down the shop, and I certainly don't want to play games and have a laugh with someone who is a massive bigot and has views that means they would hate a number of my closest friends. I'm certainly not going to argue with some american who doesn't have a clue about the background of the BNP but leaps in thinking he's taking the high ground by arguing against 'political correctness'. The leader of the BNP has been seen meeting senior members of the KKK in the past, these are the sorts of people we're talking about, but if you want to claim my stance basically amounts to needlessly calling them a 'poopyhead' then it's really not worth my time.

Come on guys, I want to hear about TFGs, not politics, take your politics to either PM or Off Topic please.

Here you go your having a good time at a tournament suddenly your up against super cheater. He over moves, then deny's it. Rolls dice where you can't see them and picks them up calling them hits, etc. Stop playing, get the manager, and report it. If nothing is done about it no problem. Begin to cheat the guy back even harder than he was cheating you. Ignore him when he complains. Let him throw a temper tantrum if he wants. You'll shortly hit a point where he will refuse to continue playing. Ask him repeatedly "Are you going to play?" blah blah your a blah blah. "Yes or no are you going to play?" Usually at that point he'll be so red-faced mad he'll just quit. If not simply keep at it until he refuses to play. Then go get your scorecard, and mark down the highest score...why? He forfeits if he refuses to play.
Other possibility he gets so upset the manager comes over, and then he tells him that your cheating. Just look dead at the manager, and say "I'm not doing anything he's not doing." and smile...smugly. At that point worse case scenario the manager will call the game a draw, might give you both a loss. So be it.

NEVER NEVER NEVER at a tournament hand a game over to a cheater simply because you can't stand to play him anymore. First report, then do it worse than he is. Cheaters can't stand to be cheated...funny and ironic. Typically what this guy wants is to drive you up the wall, and make you quit. Free win for him.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Swan-of-War wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:

Swan-of-War wrote:Have you guys all just started playing? Springing Special Characters on an opponent without telling them beforehand is considered bad form. Most are grossly over-powered and game changing in and of themselves, which is why most tournaments disallow them.

That said, if you've discussed it with your opponent beforehand and they've had a chance to include one / alter their list accordingly, then knock yourself out.

I...can't tell if you are serious, trolling or some manner of time traveller from 2002.

Special characters have been 100% accepted in all levels of gaming for the better part of 5+ years. Hell, I'd go so far as to say they are EXPECTED.

The poster I was responding to named off Fantasy special characters, hence I'm talking about Fantasy.
Try to keep up.

If this is about fantasy then maybe take it to the fantasy forums. If nobody has noticed this is the 40k forums.....Just saying.

No it isn't, this is Dakka Discussions - if you want to make it specifically 40k then take it to the 40k section.... Just saying.

Luckily, I've never ran into TFGs. My flgs has like 15 regular players and only 2 are under 18.

Ok, last comment from me on this side dicussion. Don't act suprised, people. Pretty much all long threads contain at least one off topic side discussion that the participants get drawn into. This one is just a little out of ordinary because of the topic.

I'm certainly not going to argue with some american who doesn't have a clue about the background of the BNP but leaps in thinking he's taking the high ground by arguing against 'political correctness'

So, just because I live in the US, I'm totally clueless about British politics and current events? I suppose you regard me as a "clueless bloody yank", right? Who's stereotyping now? You do realise that there is this useful little tool we have now that allows a person to educate themselves on topics they have no direct involvment in. It's called the "internet". You might have heard of it. In any event do you REALLY think that someone like me (that is to say a political junky with a keen interest in the plight of the West in regard to demographic displacement, imigration, etc) is actually "clueless" in regards to the BNP? The fact of the matter is that I have been quite aware of the party and it's platform for over ten years now. I'm also aware of it's history and the baggage it brings to the table. It also might suprise you that I actually attended a speach and Q&A session that Mr. Griffith gave here in the States a few years back.

But never mind all that. I don't have a clue.

I'm also quite aware that the British press is if anything worse that what we have here in the US in having a left leaning slant and an agenda. So perhaps it's not all your fault. No matter. It's not my place to try to educate you. That's something you have to do on your own....
Cheers. You may now have the last word.
I'm nice that way.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled discussion about TFG and similar issues!

TR

Wagguy80 wrote: NEVER NEVER NEVER at a tournament hand a game over to a cheater simply because you can't stand to play him anymore. First report, then do it worse than he is. Cheaters can't stand to be cheated...funny and ironic. Typically what this guy wants is to drive you up the wall, and make you quit. Free win for him.

This actually happened to my group, there was a player at a local tourney that clearly was non stop "cheater" and we ended up complaining to the "Leader" (see below) 3 of us played the guy and each of ended up stop playing him in the middle of round because everything he did was wrong and the guy ended up winning the tournament because of it. Even though one of our players and the same win record (legally) and better play scores. The guy kept the award because at that point we just wanted to leave on how poorly everything was handled.... We notified the shop owner / Convention organizer and my group never went back for a very long time.

Here is a few we normally have to deal with...

"Baller" Great kid that doesn't have a good grasp of the game and normally will lose the game. His lost is normally followed by how great your army is and nice to play you.. But he has a B.O. problem and has a tenancy during the game to reach inside his pants and "adjust" himself numerous times and then want to help move your stuff.. He is old enough person to know that he is in a public place and things like showering is a norm for most people. He is a social misfit and does other things that your parents taught you not to do in public.

"The Leader" Another nice guy, but is clueless. Always working with the store owner / Convention Organizer to run events and they usually have random obscure rules that you get surprised with right before the game. Doesn't have a good grasp of the rules and enjoys "fun arguments" that end with a buddy or his side winning. When you show him the rule, it is followed up with "we don't play it that way" or "I already made the call against you" I have noticed the standard game night still have the same amount of people, but the tournaments/ special game events that involve his group is starting to get very low attendance. I feel bad for the store owner..you have someone that wants to support a game you have a ton of money already invested in.. but it causes no one to want to play the game if the guy or his group is running it.

"Cheater" Haven't seen him around lately.. But the guy has everything primed black, his army lists are hand wrote in a language only he understands, his army lists are usually over the total amount if you can figure it out by what he has on the table. Anything you can possibly do to cheat ...fast dice rolls the whole lot...at one point after a number of complaints I think the store owner banded him for a short while.

"Cheese Master" Great player understands every single rule in the game and uses it to his full advantage. He is there to win, there is no friendly games. Every list he uses is one of the top three internet broken lists of the month. Maybe he is like this due to the group he normally plays with.

Genoside07 wrote:
"Baller" Great kid that doesn't have a good grasp of the game and normally will lose the game. His lost is normally followed by how great your army is and nice to play you.. But he has a B.O. problem and has a tenancy during the game to reach inside his pants and "adjust" himself numerous times and then want to help move your stuff.. He is old enough person to know that he is in a public place and things like showering is a norm for most people. He is a social misfit and does other things that your parents taught you not to do in public.

"The Leader" Another nice guy, but is clueless. Always working with the store owner / Convention Organizer to run events and they usually have random obscure rules that you get surprised with right before the game. Doesn't have a good grasp of the rules and enjoys "fun arguments" that end with a buddy or his side winning. When you show him the rule, it is followed up with "we don't play it that way" or "I already made the call against you" I have noticed the standard game night still have the same amount of people, but the tournaments/ special game events that involve his group is starting to get very low attendance. I feel bad for the store owner..you have someone that wants to support a game you have a ton of money already invested in.. but it causes no one to want to play the game if the guy or his group is running it.

"Cheater" Haven't seen him around lately.. But the guy has everything primed black, his army lists are hand wrote in a language only he understands, his army lists are usually over the total amount if you can figure it out by what he has on the table. Anything you can possibly do to cheat ...fast dice rolls the whole lot...at one point after a number of complaints I think the store owner banded him for a short while.

"Cheese Master" Great player understands every single rule in the game and uses it to his full advantage. He is there to win, there is no friendly games. Every list he uses is one of the top three internet broken lists of the month. Maybe he is like this due to the group he normally plays with.

I think you have pegged all of the character types for TFG. LOL well done

Trench-Raider wrote: Ok, last comment from me on this side dicussion. Don't act suprised, people. Pretty much all long threads contain at least one off topic side discussion that the participants get drawn into. This one is just a little out of ordinary because of the topic.

I'm certainly not going to argue with some american who doesn't have a clue about the background of the BNP but leaps in thinking he's taking the high ground by arguing against 'political correctness'

So, just because I live in the US, I'm totally clueless about British politics and current events? I suppose you regard me as a "clueless bloody yank", right? Who's stereotyping now? You do realise that there is this useful little tool we have now that allows a person to educate themselves on topics they have no direct involvment in. It's called the "internet". You might have heard of it. In any event do you REALLY think that someone like me (that is to say a political junky with a keen interest in the plight of the West in regard to demographic displacement, imigration, etc) is actually "clueless" in regards to the BNP? The fact of the matter is that I have been quite aware of the party and it's platform for over ten years now. I'm also aware of it's history and the baggage it brings to the table. It also might suprise you that I actually attended a speach and Q&A session that Mr. Griffith gave here in the States a few years back.

But never mind all that. I don't have a clue.

I'm also quite aware that the British press is if anything worse that what we have here in the US in having a left leaning slant and an agenda. So perhaps it's not all your fault. No matter. It's not my place to try to educate you. That's something you have to do on your own....
Cheers. You may now have the last word.
I'm nice that way.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled discussion about TFG and similar issues!

TR

You educate yourself on the BNP and still go and hear Nick Griffin speak - surely you are aware of the irony in that context?

The one and only Q&A session I have ever seen a memeber of the BNP in (Nick Griffin on Question Time) resulted in the almost complete reversal of any gains they had made as political party in the previous decade.

They say feth all grows in the shade, and in this case it wilted in the glare of public scrutiny.

Anyway not playing someone because they something you find distasteful is the normal course of thisng I would imagine, whether they have the right to say so is irrelevent as the end result is the same.

Enough about the BNP already...

You all win, everyone is right, prizes for all....

Back to TFG and people you won't play again....

Reporting these politics posts now, since god help you if you don't get the last word in an INTERNET ARGUMENT.

The only time I have vowed to not play against anyone is essentially a sort of hybrid of cheater and rules lawyer. I'm sure you know the type. When it is my turn, every move and rule is scrutinized and picked over with a fine tooth comb. When it comes to his turn, it is fast, loose and always a lot more easygoing when it comes to the rules.

I refused to play against someone because he kept posting about politics in a TFG thread on Dakka.

When I played CCGs, there was a TFG that would cheat. We used card sleeves to keep the cards from getting damage from handling. This guy had marked the sleeves in the foil stamp that was on the back of the sleeves. It let him track certain cards in this deck. Anyway, after he was caught, we made a local rule for our tournaments that if your sleeves had foil or other marks on them, you had to put that on the front of the card.