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In case it is of interest or use to someone else, I just finished the 5 flyrant fight. This is the list I used, it is meant to be a 'take all comers' list which can also handle 5 flyrants, without resorting to bs like 3WK or 40 Bikes. This is why I have more bikes than I would like against a Mawloc heavy list, and the very expensive D-Scythes that will have to be used as objective campers in this game.

My list @ 1850:
HQ: Farseer w/spear + stone
Troops: 6 scat bikes (Runs with Farseer) + 3 scatbikes + 3 scatbikes
Elites: 5 Wraith Guard w/D-Scythes + ScatSerpent
Heavy Suppprt: 6 Dark Reapers w/Exarch + 6 Starshot (these are put in the following bunker)
Lord Of War: Wraithknight w/Heavy Wraithcannons + 1 Scatter Laser
Fortification: Martyrs Bunker (Thank you DCannon4Life) w/Ammo Store + Comms Relay
Formation: Crimson Death

Battle report:


Possible Changes for future matches:

You're welcome! One thing about the Icarus; it can only be fired if you're out of the bunker. That puts the Dark Reapers at greater risk. Might still be worth it as long as you still have something in the bunker.

I had heard that they could fire from inside the building in this edition, so I asked Pietre if he could so kind as to explain the rules for me. Much thanks!

pretre wrote:"Gun Emplacement Upgrades
If a gun emplacement is taken as an upgrade for a building and placed upon the building’s battlements (see below), then it counts as an additionalemplaced weapon on the building instead of a gun emplacement."

From the main rulebook.

The Bastion's Icarus is placed on the battlements.

"If a building is occupied, an embarked model can choose to fire one
of the emplaced weapons. If the building has more than one emplaced
weapon, each can be fired by a different embarked model."

So the reapers inside could fire the Icarus.

So the reapers can fire the Icarus from inside the building.

Interesting! That's a significant advantage!

What are your thoughts on taking the same configuration (Dark Reaper exarc firing Icarus Cannon), but from an Aegis Defense Line instead of Bastion. I'm looking it on a friendly enviroment, local tourney at most, so I don't expect lots of Flyrants spam

The Aegis DL has no occupancy limit, but only provides a cover save. Vehicles get to use it, and it can be shaped as required.
A bunker or bastion have to get attacked, not the occupants, so are much safer (against most things). They're AV14 IIRC, which might cause issues.

But, this is best discussed elsewhere.

I don't like the aegis defense line for the reapers, because I can usually get a 4+ or 5+ cover save from terrain if I need it, for free. They have an armor save at 3+ which is better than what the aegis can give. The largest weakness of the Dark Reapers is their toughness of 3, so bolters wound them on 3+ and anything stronger than a bolter will wound on a 2+.

So running 3 reapers it's probably better to put them in terrain cover somewhere. If running more than 3 reapers then you are starting to put a lot of points into the unit, and I think its' better to have a bunker to protect them. The value per point of the bunker increases the more models you have inside it.

Dark Reapers might be the best anti-bike unit in the game, and bikes can only glance AV12, so an AV14 bunker is awsome. I was fighting hive tyrants, and they are also S6, so they can't do anything against the bunker either.

The exarch can fire any weapon in the game and give it an extra shot, making the icarus perfect. Exarched Icarus is 2 shots at S9, AP2, Ignore Jink, Skyfire, Intercept, BS5/6, and reroll to hit against flyers (and sometimes other things). If he fires intercept, then he can fire his own weapon in the proceeding shooting face as well.

Bunker vs Bastion. Bastion has 360 degrees fire points (kinda depends on how you glued it together), but at certain sides you might only be able to fire 2-4 reapers. The bunker can have 8 models firing out it's front, but you have to be more careful with placement.

Edit: if you have a wraithknight, the bastion and bunker can provide it with a 4+ cover save, not so easy with the ADL.

But, with the Exarch using the Icarus, the rest of the squad have to fire at the same unit, correct? You aren't getting split fire from anything? Do you not find this is a waste, especially with such a big unit, and that you'd be better off having the Reapers fire at something else? (Maybe not in your above match, but in general)

Cover saves are good against AP# weapons. Dark Reapers die quite quickly against AP3 weapons, and an ADL gives them a chance to save.

If there is an IC with the squad, that can fire the weapon, leaving the DRs to us their weapons. I cannot thing which IC, but some of the Phoenix Lords could be good.

Hiding a WK or similar behind a building is indeed a nice bonus over an ADL.

The IC could also leave the squad and go up on the roof to fire the cannon, then rejoin:

 The Shadow wrote:
But, with the Exarch using the Icarus, the rest of the squad have to fire at the same unit, correct? You aren't getting split fire from anything? Do you not find this is a waste, especially with such a big unit, and that you'd be better off having the Reapers fire at something else? (Maybe not in your above match, but in general)

I would see this more as a problem if I wanted to use the Quadgun. The Quadgun already has twin-linked, so doesn't need reroll to hit, it 's AP4 so it can't pen what the rest of the reapers can pen, and +1 shot makes it 25% more effective (while icarus is made 100% more effective). So if you are going to use an IC to run a gun, it should be the quad. The whole point of the Icarus is to abuse the extra shot, ignore jink, reroll to hit against flyers (and land raiders/wave serpents going flat out with high threat cargo) from the Reaper Exarch.

In stead of looking at the Icarus as a sepparate entity, look at it more like buying a 35 point gun upgrade for your exarch that gives him S9 and AP2 Skyfire Intercept, in stead of S8 and AP3. I don't think there are many situations you would feel a need to split fire. If you are not rolling with Crimson Hunters, then this is the best AA unit eldar has, so you want the whole squad firing at the enemy flyer(s) anyway. If there are no flyers on the table, then they will usually be targeting AV12+ vehicles, icarus just does all that better. There might be a point where you want to use the S5 shots to get more volume of fire (like against eldar bikes), and then the Icarus would be wasted a turn.

However, you do get pseudo splitfire from intercept. As long as the enemy rolls reservers every round you can use the intercept function, then the exarch can fire his regular weapon in the procing turn at whatever he wants. It does mean you have to pay 8 points extra for starshot missiles though.

I do agree that it can be bad to have too big a unit having to fire at the same thing (assuming they don't have to split fire the whole match like I did over), so going 8 reapers in the bunker is probably bad. I would still go like 5-6 (incl exarch) reapers though.

As for cover saves, I don't think I have been in many matches where there were no ruins on the table to provide a 4+ cover save for free. I agree cover save is better than armor save, I just don't see the point of paying 50 points for it when there should always be some +4 or +5 cover on the table to use. I rather pay 55 points and have AV14 to protect them in stead. Since this is also my counter to eldar bike spam, then volume of fire is the problem, not AP3+, and a bunker counters that.

 Acidian wrote:
The exarch can fire any weapon in the game and give it an extra shot, making the icarus perfect. Exarched Icarus is 2 shots at S9, AP2, Ignore Jink, Skyfire, Intercept, BS5/6, and reroll to hit against flyers (and sometimes other things). If he fires intercept, then he can fire his own weapon in the proceeding shooting face as well.

How is Fast Shot worded? (My book is at home.) I can see some people arguing that the Las cannon is not "his" gun if Fast Shot only works on "his" gun.

Everyone lamenting over skyhammer, but I am just sad that my 3 crimson hunters were finally playable in the new eldar codex, and now they are bad again. That lasted for 3 months.

I mean, you could still use them, but you either build your list around trying to take out the new and improved stalkers in round 1 (impossible to do if you are also trying to also survive the round 1 skyhammer) or you have to gamble on deploying on the short table edge so they can come in without being intercepted.

 Acidian wrote:
Everyone lamenting over skyhammer, but I am just sad that my 3 crimson hunters were finally playable in the new eldar codex, and now they are bad again. That lasted for 3 months.

I mean, you could still use them, but you either build your list around trying to take out the new and improved stalkers in round 1 (impossible to do if you are also trying to also survive the round 1 skyhammer) or you have to gamble on deploying on the short table edge so they can come in without being intercepted.

You only have to kill a single stalker to get rid of ignore cover, the unit needs to be a full 3 stalkers to keep ignore cover. This isn't that hard when the stalker needs to deploy in LoS of the entire board or you can bring your crimson hunters on without getting intercepted. The range is also only 48". With vector dancer crimson hunters can actually float just outside range unless the stalker is deployed centrally.

Crimson death also mixes extremely well with reserves based lists. Which means for CWE an autarch and comms relay for either a 35/36 chance if you want it on or a 75% chance to keep it off the table until you can deal with a single AV12 vehicle.

A single crimson hunter also mixes well with a void shield generator as it can vector dancer in range all game. A full unit of 3 stalkers will not take down 3 shields on average.

 ansacs wrote:

 Acidian wrote:
Everyone lamenting over skyhammer, but I am just sad that my 3 crimson hunters were finally playable in the new eldar codex, and now they are bad again. That lasted for 3 months.

I mean, you could still use them, but you either build your list around trying to take out the new and improved stalkers in round 1 (impossible to do if you are also trying to also survive the round 1 skyhammer) or you have to gamble on deploying on the short table edge so they can come in without being intercepted.

You only have to kill a single stalker to get rid of ignore cover, the unit needs to be a full 3 stalkers to keep ignore cover. This isn't that hard when the stalker needs to deploy in LoS of the entire board or you can bring your crimson hunters on without getting intercepted. The range is also only 48". With vector dancer crimson hunters can actually float just outside range unless the stalker is deployed centrally.

Crimson death also mixes extremely well with reserves based lists. Which means for CWE an autarch and comms relay for either a 35/36 chance if you want it on or a 75% chance to keep it off the table until you can deal with a single AV12 vehicle.

A single crimson hunter also mixes well with a void shield generator as it can vector dancer in range all game. A full unit of 3 stalkers will not take down 3 shields on average.

The players I know deplay their stalkers so they have 4+ or 5+ cover. They also deploy them so they can usually cover the entire map. As I wrote in my post though, if you are lucky and are deploying on the shorts side of the table (ie, Hammer and Andvil), then you can get the crimsons in without worrying about intercept. Because if the opposing player wants to controll the whole board, he will have to drive the stalkers down towards your edge, which will most like take it out of cover and make it easier to kill. Vanguard strike can have a little bit of safe area in the corner, depending on how far up the long edge he deploys his stalker, but probably not enough space to put 3 crimson hunters in.

I am fully aware that you only need to kill 1 stalker. However, I don't think you realize how hard it is to kill an AV12 tank in round one from the front with 4+ cover. (If you are lucky, there would only be 5+ cover available, but lets assume we are not lucky).

Requirements to kill AV12 on average at 4+ cover.
S8 Shots at BS5: 15
So you need at least 13 Dark Reapers with 2 exarchs. However, if you put the reapers in two bastions with reroll ammo storage and two icarus (means no comms relay :( ) then you only need 10 Reapers with 2 exarchs manning the icarus, which is handy because you don't have more firepoints than for 8 reapers anyway.
So here you are paying 610 points to take out one stalker in turn 1, and that's before adding a required 3rd aspect warrior group and maybe void shield generators.

S8 Shots at BS4: 18
Alternatively you can go for 6 falcons with Pulse lasers and Bright lance. Or 18 Vypers, hah.

S9 Shots at BS4: 11
So have fun bringing 9 Night Spinners for 900 points (Large Blast against a Rhino Hull at BS4 probably needs less than 11 hits, but I am not going to bother calculating that). That said, this is a barrage weapon, so you can ignore cover saves if the rhino is not standing in area terrain, that actually helps quite a bit. So it could be an idea to bring 3 night spinners, and they will most likely score 2 hull points if no area terrain, making the job easier for WK or reapers to shave of the last hull point. A problem with Night Spinners is that stalkers can fire at skimmers with full BS, so if he goes first, then you will lose a night spinner to stalkers, and suddenly you only have 2x S8 large blasts.

Strength D Shots at BS4 and assuming Guide: 2
So all you really need is a WK and hope you don't roll bad. The problem with WK right now is that they are instagibbed by skyhammer. So you are 100% required to get the first turn, fire off those two shots at a frakin stalker that costs 75 points, and then watch your 310 point knight eat meltagrav the next turn.

To conclude, or tl;dr, it costs a lot and takes way much effort to ensure that your crimson hunters don't die on the turn they arrive unless you are lucky and playing Hammer and Anvil. By the time you have enough modles to securely take down one stalker in cover in turn 1, you don't really need another 12 S8 shots any more, because you have so much S8 and S9 shots on the table already. These calculations are also based on rolling average, if you roll less than average that stalker will survive, or if opponent goes first you might lose some units and not have enough to take out the stalker in the next turn (especially true with skyhammer). You could stave off the inevitable with Autarch, but keeping 440 points of the table on purpose until turn 3 or 4 doesn't seem worth it no matter how you look at it.

Edit: How can a flyer benefit from void shield generator, only units standing on the battlements can get that effect. I don't think you are allowed to ballance a crimson hunter on top of a bastion and say that it now has an AV12 shield?

 Acidian wrote:
The players I know deplay their stalkers so they have 4+ or 5+ cover. They also deploy them so they can usually cover the entire map. As I wrote in my post though, if you are lucky and are deploying on the shorts side of the table (ie, Hammer and Andvil), then you can get the crimsons in without worrying about intercept. Because if the opposing player wants to controll the whole board, he will have to drive the stalkers down towards your edge, which will most like take it out of cover and make it easier to kill. Vanguard strike can have a little bit of safe area in the corner, depending on how far up the long edge he deploys his stalker, but probably not enough space to put 3 crimson hunters in.

Dawn of war and vanguard both actually requires you to place the stalkers in the center of the deployment zone to cover the board. Also just to be sure, you are aware that the crimson death hunters are not a unit of vehicles and can be moved separately right?

 Acidian wrote:
I am fully aware that you only need to kill 1 stalker. However, I don't think you realize how hard it is to kill an AV12 tank in round one from the front with 4+ cover. (If you are lucky, there would only be 5+ cover available, but lets assume we are not lucky).

Spoiler:

Requirements to kill AV12 on average at 4+ cover.
S8 Shots at BS5: 15
So you need at least 13 Dark Reapers with 2 exarchs. However, if you put the reapers in two bastions with reroll ammo storage and two icarus (means no comms relay :( ) then you only need 10 Reapers with 2 exarchs manning the icarus, which is handy because you don't have more firepoints than for 8 reapers anyway.
So here you are paying 610 points to take out one stalker in turn 1, and that's before adding a required 3rd aspect warrior group and maybe void shield generators.

S8 Shots at BS4: 18
Alternatively you can go for 6 falcons with Pulse lasers and Bright lance. Or 18 Vypers, hah.

S9 Shots at BS4: 11
So have fun bringing 9 Night Spinners for 900 points (Large Blast against a Rhino Hull at BS4 probably needs less than 11 hits, but I am not going to bother calculating that). That said, this is a barrage weapon, so you can ignore cover saves if the rhino is not standing in area terrain, that actually helps quite a bit. So it could be an idea to bring 3 night spinners, and they will most likely score 2 hull points if no area terrain, making the job easier for WK or reapers to shave of the last hull point. A problem with Night Spinners is that stalkers can fire at skimmers with full BS, so if he goes first, then you will lose a night spinner to stalkers, and suddenly you only have 2x S8 large blasts.

Strength D Shots at BS4 and assuming Guide: 2
So all you really need is a WK and hope you don't roll bad. The problem with WK right now is that they are instagibbed by skyhammer. So you are 100% required to get the first turn, fire off those two shots at a frakin stalker that costs 75 points, and then watch your 310 point knight eat meltagrav the next turn.

1) What sort of pts levels are you playing at? You are talking about a skyhammer w/ grav devs and 3 stalkers which is over 1000 pts. That doesn't leave a lot in terms of scoring or support.

2) I find your boards to be incredibly hard to picture. How do you deploy a unit of 3 vehicles so they all have cover (remember they need to be 25% or more obscured and don't benefit from area terrain).

 Acidian wrote:
To conclude, or tl;dr, it costs a lot and takes way much effort to ensure that your crimson hunters don't die on the turn they arrive unless you are lucky and playing Hammer and Anvil. By the time you have enough modles to securely take down one stalker in cover in turn 1, you don't really need another 12 S8 shots any more, because you have so much S8 and S9 shots on the table already. These calculations are also based on rolling average, if you roll less than average that stalker will survive, or if opponent goes first you might lose some units and not have enough to take out the stalker in the next turn (especially true with skyhammer). You could stave off the inevitable with Autarch, but keeping 440 points of the table on purpose until turn 3 or 4 doesn't seem worth it no matter how you look at it.

Personally I would take the hit on the chin and loose 1 crimson hunter to interceptor. The unit then cannot fire next turn and so I then get 2 turns of shooting to deal with the unit using the crimson hunters who if they could be intercepted in the first place have an excellent chance to get into rear armour by then and will at least be able to outmaneuver the cover save on the unit. Remember that interceptor rule specifically states that the weapon it applies to can only be fired at any 1 unit, cannot be fired next turn, and the stalkers all have to be in a unit of 3 to ignore cover.

IMO the crimson death formation at 1850 pts and under works best in a null deployment list. As such I don't like it alongside a wraithknight which when kept in reserves wastes most of it's best abilities (board control and stomps) until turn 3 at best, and usually turn 4. I have been playing around with something like;

 Acidian wrote:
Edit: How can a flyer benefit from void shield generator, only units standing on the battlements can get that effect. I don't think you are allowed to ballance a crimson hunter on top of a bastion and say that it now has an AV12 shield?

The void shield generator works on any unit within 12" of the generator.

 ansacs wrote:

Dawn of war and vanguard both actually requires you to place the stalkers in the center of the deployment zone to cover the board. Also just to be sure, you are aware that the crimson death hunters are not a unit of vehicles and can be moved separately right?

Vanguard kinda needs the stalkers placed closer to the long sided table edge to cover the whole map. DoW just requires you to be in the middle of your own deployment zone, as far up to the boarder that you can safely place them. Yes, I am aware that vehicles who are not squadrons are actually separate units and are allowed to move separately.

 ansacs wrote:

1) What sort of pts levels are you playing at? You are talking about a skyhammer w/ grav devs and 3 stalkers which is over 1000 pts. That doesn't leave a lot in terms of scoring or support.

2) I find your boards to be incredibly hard to picture. How do you deploy a unit of 3 vehicles so they all have cover (remember they need to be 25% or more obscured and don't benefit from area terrain).

1.Usually 1850. My guess for an 1850 list would be a skyhammer formation, a unit of 3 stalkers, and assault centeurions in drop pods with melta. Other than that, I don't know what the SM players in our meta will bring.

2. Only the vehicle in front needs to be in cover? Not going to say that it's not possible that there might be space for one crimson hunter on a corner, but those things are pretty big because of their wing span. So you definitely would not fit 3 of them into one corner. We play with a lot of terrain on our board, and we also allow for area terrain that gives cover to vehicles. I think you need to by special GW scenery if you wanted to have legit area terrain, so we mix in some 6th edition rules for cover in stead. Not something I feel like arguing with the other players over.

 ansacs wrote:

Personally I would take the hit on the chin and loose 1 crimson hunter to interceptor. The unit then cannot fire next turn and so I then get 2 turns of shooting to deal with the unit using the crimson hunters who if they could be intercepted in the first place have an excellent chance to get into rear armour by then and will at least be able to outmaneuver the cover save on the unit. Remember that interceptor rule specifically states that the weapon it applies to can only be fired at any 1 unit, cannot be fired next turn, and the stalkers all have to be in a unit of 3 to ignore cover.

I don't have the rulebook with me, and I don't have the space marine codex. Does this mean that the stalkers can't use their split fire rule to fire on a second crimson hunter? As I understood it from one of the space marine players here, they can split fire at full BS now at a second target, meaning 3 stalkers could take out 2 crimsons in one turn. If this information was wrong, that would help a lot.

 ansacs wrote:

IMO the crimson death formation at 1850 pts and under works best in a null deployment list. As such I don't like it alongside a wraithknight which when kept in reserves wastes most of it's best abilities (board control and stomps) until turn 3 at best, and usually turn 4. I have been playing around with something like;

The void shield generator works on any unit within 12" of the generator.

The only void shield rule I can find is in the stronghold assault, and it only says something about shielding models on the battlements. So which void shield generator are we talking about here?

 Acidian wrote:
Vanguard kinda needs the stalkers placed closer to the long sided table edge to cover the whole map. DoW just requires you to be in the middle of your own deployment zone, as far up to the boarder that you can safely place them.

You are correct. I just said middle of deployment zone to simplify the statement. With the normal rules for vehicles claiming cover and the normal ITC style - large LoS blocking terrain in the middle of the board. This would have usually forced the SM player to not have cover on at least 1-2 of the stalkers and likely not have LoS to a section of the board. I would recommend trying to place LoS blocing terrain in the middle of the board, if you both roll off to place terrain. The SM player probably can claim cover on most of the stalkers. Just make sure to keep them honest that they are measuring each stalker's intercept range from the gun barrel and not all the stalkers from one of the guns. I have often found that one of the tanks in a unit can be made out of range with a little maneuvering. This could let you reduce the damage from intercept to some degree.

 Acidian wrote:
Yes, I am aware that vehicles who are not squadrons are actually separate units and are allowed to move separately.

Excellent, I have learned the hard way not to assume these things. Like the area terrain gives vehicles cover house rule, that makes the stalkers vastly more durable than I ever would have imagined.

 Acidian wrote:
1.Usually 1850. My guess for an 1850 list would be a skyhammer formation, a unit of 3 stalkers, and assault centeurions in drop pods with melta. Other than that, I don't know what the SM players in our meta will bring.

2. Only the vehicle in front needs to be in cover? Not going to say that it's not possible that there might be space for one crimson hunter on a corner, but those things are pretty big because of their wing span. So you definitely would not fit 3 of them into one corner. We play with a lot of terrain on our board, and we also allow for area terrain that gives cover to vehicles. I think you need to by special GW scenery if you wanted to have legit area terrain, so we mix in some 6th edition rules for cover in stead. Not something I feel like arguing with the other players over.

1. right on. It sounds like the opponent's are largely drop pod players with a single unit of stalkers deployed and little else. First you should talk to your opponent's about interceptor as I post below. If you need to take this unit down turn 1 then there are a few options I see as being useful but there are not a lot of great options to do this.
a) For 375 pts a unit of 3 night spinners with crystal targeting matrix. This is actually a pretty nasty unit. It can move + turbo boost 30" on the first turn and then fire 3 torrent templates from one of the weapons with Str 9. Considering the fact that the stalkers will have to deploy away from their board edge you should be able to turbo boost in behind them and shoot the three templates into their rear armour. Because they are torrent they ignore cover, if you have all three still active then you should be able to kill all three of the stalkers in a single volley. Even with only 2 left, as long as you can get into rear armour you will still get 6 hits at Str 8 which will kill give an average 5 HP. In fact if you can get doom off as well you would only need 1 night weaver.
b) It would take 3 waveserpents firing their shields + scat lasers on average to kill a single stalker with 4+ cover. That isn't so bad if you already planned to take them to transport wraithguard or fire dragons but that is pretty awful otherwise. If you can gain access to doom reliably this becomes much easier. BTW a fun use for serpents I have been toying with is to use a crystal targeting matrix to turbo boost them in behind the enemy loaded with things like foot seer councils and wraithguard. I then fire the serpent shield into side and rear armour and the nasty stuff inside walks out of the serpent wreckage next turn. 2 of those serpents would average 4.66 HP on the first turn assuming stalker rear armour.
c) Speaking of a seer councils and wraithguard either could actually be pretty effective. Just put them in a bunker with escape hatch (or the seer council could probably work inside a serpent or definitely would work on bikes but they would need spears). Jump out turn 1 18" and shoot the stalkers. The wraithguard have a good chance to kill at least 1 stalker and the seer council would need significant psychic support but could do the job and cause general havok along the way.
d) Another option which could work is a unit of 3 D cannon vaul's wrath batteries with eldrad + warlock. Eldrad can scout the unit up close enough to the stalker to kill them and could even give them ignore cover with a little luck. The cool thing about this unit is they can have shrouded and a host of nice buffs and kill DSing units like it is a joke. I use this unit a lot in my guardian based lists. They are actually surprisingly effective.


2. The vehicle closest to the firing unit needs to be in cover with 25% of it obscured to get a cover save. Usually this is not hard to counteract as you can just deploy/move and shoot from different angles, which when talking about a unit of stalkers usually lets you target a different stalker or find a less obscured angle. You don't need GW terrain to do area terrain and even in 6ed vehicles didn't get area terrain. This house rule of vehicles getting area terrain is much like the brb rule letting GMC get it, broken. These terrain rules is actually a really big part of your problem. Your statement is making more sense to me now. The stalkers should still only have 5+ covert saves though as unless you guys are using completely different rules even for the cover save terrain gives. I hope your skimmers also benefit from these terrain rules?

Page 75 6ed BRB
Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside area terrain. The 25% rule given above takes precedence.

 Acidian wrote:
I don't have the rulebook with me, and I don't have the space marine codex. Does this mean that the stalkers can't use their split fire rule to fire on a second crimson hunter? As I understood it from one of the space marine players here, they can split fire at full BS now at a second target, meaning 3 stalkers could take out 2 crimsons in one turn. If this information was wrong, that would help a lot.

The stalkers do have a rule that they can split their fire at 2 different targets. However the rules for Interceptor from the brb state;

Interceptor
This weapon has been calibrated to target incoming drop troops, teleporting assault squads and other unlooked-for enemies.

At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one.

There is no exception given for these rules in the icarus stormcannon array rules. Thus the player could choose either fire method when intercepting but they have no permission to intercept two different units.

I can really see your problem now. If you combine the stalkers getting area terrain with the unit being able to shoot 18 shots at 2 crimson hunters this would be ridiculous. I am not sure if you can do anything about the area terrain (which btw makes the stalker unit vastly more durable) but at least you might be able to only loose one crimson hunter when they come on.

 Acidian wrote:
The only void shield rule I can find is in the stronghold assault, and it only says something about shielding models on the battlements. So which void shield generator are we talking about here?

You are looking at the void shield upgrade to an existing building, ie bunker etc. I am talking about the fortification "Void Shield Generator" which is 50 pts and can be upgraded with an extra 2 shields for 25 pts a piece. My digital edition has it on pg 55.

I would like to join the conversation by saying that I think the codex is strong easily top 5 but its not broken. I am looking at it from the viewpoint of a player who plays with ITC rules where strength D weapons and invisibility has been toned down a little. I agree that a lot of the formations are good but not OMG! The auto 6 inch run rule is nice but we are talking about giving this ability to units that already have fleet. I don't know if its worth the tax just to get the auto 6 when you already have a free re-roll. Now its a different story when you combine the 6 inch rule with Wraith Host formation. Giving d-scythes battle focus and guaranteed 6 inch run when they don't come with fleet is amazing, basically they have a 20 inch threat range with a strength D templates. That sounds really good until you have to pay your taxes and realize that the combo is well over 1000 points!

The formation where you get bs 5 is really good but once more you have to pay your taxes. Each squad must have an exarch in each squad and most likely your going to equip him with something so your still paying some points for something you normally would not get. I think the tax is worth it if you are using three of those units BS 5 is worth 30-60 points extra but the auto 6 run is not. Of the 3 Guardian Host that you must have Windrider Host is the cheapest but that means at a minimum you have 400 points that do not benefit from running 6 inches each turn. With the other two your in Bill Gates tax bracket, don't get me wrong I know that those units can work but you have to make them work its almost like the formation dictates your playing style instead of the other way around if you know what I mean.

Last couple of games against one player, I don't think he needed area terrain to get his stalkers in cover, there has been enough ruins on the board, and he has no other tanks competing for the cover space on his side. So area terrain might not even mater. That said, area terrain requires you to take dangerous/difficult terrain tests, which I feel is scarier on my serpents than on rhinos, but driving into area terrain can have consequences.

I had not seen the void shield before, and apparently it is not for sale at GW, so you have to make the models yourself? Sadly it competes with my bunker + comms relay for fortification slots, but stalkers can't hurt a crimson hunter under an av12 shield so seems worth it anyway. With this knowledge, I might even consider testing a hemlock.

Since the stalkers can only take out 1 crimson hunter on intercept, that makes it easier to deal with. You can still get a good map layout, and maybe he can't get good cover bonuses, but even if everything goes against you then you can only lose 1 crimson hunter in turn 2. I am very happy that they can't use their split fire on intercept, thank you.

If I run wraithguard in serpents, I usually turbo boost them up to the opponents edge with holo fields. This would not kill any stalkers in turn 1, but it's an awesome psychological move that usually scares most opponents to dedicate all their fire on those serpents/guards. Leaving the rest of your army to do what they want, and the wraith guard will probably survive anyway, even if the serpents don't.

I have considered the Eldrad with vaul's wrath before. If you get first turn, then it is craaaaazy amazing. Put them in cover around the middle of the map with shrouded from warlock and with a good chance of having fortune on eldrad. With the list I made with this formation, I also had 2 wraith guard units with scout that I push 12" forward as well. However, if opponent starts his turn first, then you wont have stealth or fortune, and with majority toughness 3 (goes up to 7 if a couple of guardians die though), then the unit would die too fast, and you can lose 400 points in models pretty fast. The serpents are really scary though, so opponent might decide to dedicate some or all fire to them.

I would like to join the conversation by saying that I think the codex is strong easily top 5 but its not broken. I am looking at it from the viewpoint of a player who plays with ITC rules where strength D weapons and invisibility has been toned down a little. I agree that a lot of the formations are good but not OMG! The auto 6 inch run rule is nice but we are talking about giving this ability to units that already have fleet. I don't know if its worth the tax just to get the auto 6 when you already have a free re-roll. Now its a different story when you combine the 6 inch rule with Wraith Host formation. Giving d-scythes battle focus and guaranteed 6 inch run when they don't come with fleet is amazing, basically they have a 20 inch threat range with a strength D templates. That sounds really good until you have to pay your taxes and realize that the combo is well over 1000 points!

The formation where you get bs 5 is really good but once more you have to pay your taxes. Each squad must have an exarch in each squad and most likely your going to equip him with something so your still paying some points for something you normally would not get. I think the tax is worth it if you are using three of those units BS 5 is worth 30-60 points extra but the auto 6 run is not. Of the 3 Guardian Host that you must have Windrider Host is the cheapest but that means at a minimum you have 400 points that do not benefit from running 6 inches each turn. With the other two your in Bill Gates tax bracket, don't get me wrong I know that those units can work but you have to make them work its almost like the formation dictates your playing style instead of the other way around if you know what I mean.

The new space marine codex with fast attack drop pods and skyhammer has definitely lightened the hate towards eldar players. Being able to kill 2 WKs in turn one has definitely shifted the focus in my lists to just ignore WKs (not that I ever ran with more than 1 anyway). Jet Bikes and Strength D weapons are still pretty broken, and since I think a lot of tourneys might ban the skyhammer formation (since it's not actually in the CSM), then we still have a very strong codex, even if certain tournaments decide to ban or nerf D weapons.

The 6" run move is pretty great even with fleet. Since Eldar can run and shoot with a lot of units, always getting 6" and not worrying about rolling low when you are trying to get into cover is pretty great. (If you roll a 4 on the dice, then you might not want to reroll, because the averages would be against you.) Also, if you are running a wraith host (wicked expensive, so really high point games), your wraithguard get battlefocus. That means your wraithguard in a serpent can drive 6", jump out and walk 6", then run 6" and fire 8"/12". So nice. Anyway, the reason most people want to run the craftworld warhost formation is not to get the 6" run, that is just a bonus, but to get the possibility of adding more than 1 wraith knight.

Exarchs often pay for themselves. Like the reaper exarch 2 wounds and has fast shot, so he fires 2 shots rather than 1. So you are basically paying for a 2nd reaper at 15 points rather than 22. How good the exarchs are do vary though, but an extra wound and +1BS/WS is always nice either way. Another bonus for aspect warrior formation is reroll on a bunch of leadership tests. My last opponent was cursing himself for not having reroll on morale checks when he failed them 3 times in a row on his leadership 9 (which was reduced to 7 against my harlequins) striking scorpions.

Acidian wrote:Last couple of games against one player, I don't think he needed area terrain to get his stalkers in cover, there has been enough ruins on the board, and he has no other tanks competing for the cover space on his side. So area terrain might not even mater. That said, area terrain requires you to take dangerous/difficult terrain tests, which I feel is scarier on my serpents than on rhinos, but driving into area terrain can have consequences.

The thing about area terrain to me at least is that eldar units are fast enough and MSU enough that we can usually cover several drastically different angles or jump on top of building to see past terrain. I have found that vehicles usually don't keep their cover saves against all the different units I can choose to kill them with. Area terrain stops you from ever being able to circumvent the cover save. It also give a great deal more flexibility so that the opponent will almost always have a good cover save even when deployed in a very limited number of spots.

You serpents can get Ghostwalk Matrix for 10 pts. That gives move through cover and thus you completely ignore dangerous terrain. If 4+ cover saves were as easy as it appears these boards make it then they could be an amazing value.

Acidian wrote:I had not seen the void shield before, and apparently it is not for sale at GW, so you have to make the models yourself? Sadly it competes with my bunker + comms relay for fortification slots, but stalkers can't hurt a crimson hunter under an av12 shield so seems worth it anyway. With this knowledge, I might even consider testing a hemlock.

It is pretty easy to model one though. Just get a clear soda bottle or glass jar. Spray some neon paint inside (I like green but any color will do), gorilla glue it to a base (card board works but an old DVD case works better), and then paint/flock/etc. it to the desired scenery.

My CWE void shield generators are 3D printed clear plastic generators from Dawn of War Soulstorm files. I love them.

Acidian wrote:Since the stalkers can only take out 1 crimson hunter on intercept, that makes it easier to deal with. You can still get a good map layout, and maybe he can't get good cover bonuses, but even if everything goes against you then you can only lose 1 crimson hunter in turn 2. I am very happy that they can't use their split fire on intercept, thank you.

Glad I could help.

Acidian wrote:If I run wraithguard in serpents, I usually turbo boost them up to the opponents edge with holo fields. This would not kill any stalkers in turn 1, but it's an awesome psychological move that usually scares most opponents to dedicate all their fire on those serpents/guards. Leaving the rest of your army to do what they want, and the wraith guard will probably survive anyway, even if the serpents don't.

Yeah, I find this to be a very fun army to play. Most of my opponent's have also enjoyed the games as it is lightning fast and tense. I personally like the ability to fire the serpent's weapon before they get assaulted and destroyed but it costs.

Acidian wrote:I have considered the Eldrad with vaul's wrath before. If you get first turn, then it is craaaaazy amazing. Put them in cover around the middle of the map with shrouded from warlock and with a good chance of having fortune on eldrad. With the list I made with this formation, I also had 2 wraith guard units with scout that I push 12" forward as well. However, if opponent starts his turn first, then you wont have stealth or fortune, and with majority toughness 3 (goes up to 7 if a couple of guardians die though), then the unit would die too fast, and you can lose 400 points in models pretty fast. The serpents are really scary though, so opponent might decide to dedicate some or all fire to them.

Artillery are always Toughness 7. So if you don't get the first turn you are still usually 4+ cover and T7. If you rolled on runes then you have a good chance to have gotten the fearless power with eldrad which means you can GtG and pop back up to shoot next turn due to fearless (super important against skyhammer). I usually like to take this with an ADL and comms relay so if the opponent is coming to me I can GtG for a 2+ cover save and use a farseer to power up a fearless bubble next turn. I also have been messing around with a foot seer council mixed in with this list. It actually works pretty well in my experience but I haven't gotten to do a lot of testing. Almost all my armies have been updated in this year.

 Acidian wrote:

Exarchs often pay for themselves. Like the reaper exarch 2 wounds and has fast shot, so he fires 2 shots rather than 1. So you are basically paying for a 2nd reaper at 15 points rather than 22. How good the exarchs are do vary though, but an extra wound and +1BS/WS is always nice either way. Another bonus for aspect warrior formation is reroll on a bunch of leadership tests. My last opponent was cursing himself for not having reroll on morale checks when he failed them 3 times in a row on his leadership 9 (which was reduced to 7 against my harlequins) striking scorpions.

I plan on taking 2 units of Fire dragons and Crack shot did not impress me much so I just glanced over the other ones pessimistically but, you are right after taking a closer look at the Exarch special rules the powers have their uses even the simple re-roll that is crack shot. Swooping Hawks deep striking without scattering is potentially a game winner in objective missions. With Dark Reapers you mention how it is technically paying for itself with the extra shot. Even the close combat oriented unit's Exarch powers are useful especially the striking scorpion one with a claw in a challenge.

I am glad I took a second look at this thanks to you Acidian, because I really like the Exarch power for warp spiders. You can blast stuff up with their shooting than assault rely on Iron Resolve to remain in cc and hit and run away only to shoot at them again with more than just the warp spiders. Ofcourse this isn't game breaking and should have been obvious but it wasn't to me. Also adding in an Autarch with a mask and swooping hawk wings (18 inches every time) to prevent overwatch add a spinneret rifle and fusion gun you have 3 ap 1 shots shots and 18 mono shots, just an extremely scary unit.

I've been thinking about how to put together lists with the Warhost, and I've settled on a rather basic format: Guardian Battlehost + Aspect Host. This brings me to 1750 points. My problem lies in effectively expanding this to 1850 and 200 points. With the way our formations work, it's neither possible nor effective to bulk up what I already have. I feel I have two options for expanding:

1. Engines of Vaul. One Nightspinner gets me to 1850 points, and an additional Fire Prism gets me to 2000 with some room for upgrades. I feel this is my best option for expanding.

2. Command formations. An Autarch can take me to 1850, or a Seer Council can take me to 2000. There are Phoenix Lords to consider as well, especially now that they are much more effective.

I wonder if anyone else has some ideas about how to expand on an existing Craftworld Warhost?

CKO wrote:
I plan on taking 2 units of Fire dragons and Crack shot did not impress me much so I just glanced over the other ones pessimistically but, you are right after taking a closer look at the Exarch special rules the powers have their uses even the simple re-roll that is crack shot. Swooping Hawks deep striking without scattering is potentially a game winner in objective missions. With Dark Reapers you mention how it is technically paying for itself with the extra shot. Even the close combat oriented unit's Exarch powers are useful especially the striking scorpion one with a claw in a challenge.

I am glad I took a second look at this thanks to you Acidian, because I really like the Exarch power for warp spiders. You can blast stuff up with their shooting than assault rely on Iron Resolve to remain in cc and hit and run away only to shoot at them again with more than just the warp spiders. Ofcourse this isn't game breaking and should have been obvious but it wasn't to me. Also adding in an Autarch with a mask and swooping hawk wings (18 inches every time) to prevent overwatch add a spinneret rifle and fusion gun you have 3 ap 1 shots shots and 18 mono shots, just an extremely scary unit.

I agree with the crack shot. It's cool with a fire pike, because you have a decent chance of damaging a tank from 18" away. The problem is paying 15 points more just for a 6" increase in range and 3" in melta range. Not sure if it's worth it, especially if you are not running aspect and being forced to buy an exarch.

I actually ran swooping hawks with autarch w/wings + fusion gun in my last game, just to test it out. With the exarch power, you can stick the exarch right behind an enemy tank and get melta bonus vs rear armor. Bonus in that the hawk exarch can throw a haywire grenade that hits on a 2+ and glances on a 2+, then used battle focus to run behind a building that was there. Next turn I assaulted the same squadron with a fusion gun and then 7 haywire grenades. The only problem with this unit is that it dies pretty fast.

HIt and run is pretty awsome to lock yourself in combat so nothing can shoot at you until your next turn. Having a banshees mask makes this pretty much risk free assuming you are charging stuff that sucks at close combat.

ansacs wrote:
You serpents can get Ghostwalk Matrix for 10 pts. That gives move through cover and thus you completely ignore dangerous terrain. If 4+ cover saves were as easy as it appears these boards make it then they could be an amazing value.

Ghostwalk matrix is an amazing upgrade, but often I will go for holofields. It depends on the tank type and what they are carrying. You can just jink for a 4+ cover as well, and when you turbo boost into the enemies face this might be the better option, then 5++ from holofields in case the tank gets assaulted is more important.

ansacs wrote:Artillery are always Toughness 7. So if you don't get the first turn you are still usually 4+ cover and T7. If you rolled on runes then you have a good chance to have gotten the fearless power with eldrad which means you can GtG and pop back up to shoot next turn due to fearless (super important against skyhammer). I usually like to take this with an ADL and comms relay so if the opponent is coming to me I can GtG for a 2+ cover save and use a farseer to power up a fearless bubble next turn. I also have been messing around with a foot seer council mixed in with this list. It actually works pretty well in my experience but I haven't gotten to do a lot of testing. Almost all my armies have been updated in this year.

Ah, I thought majority toughness was used here as well. Having T7 will be so good. It had not occured to me that I could use Will of Asuryan in this way before, that is a pretty cool idea, thanks!
Regarding the ADL, since you are using Eldrad to scout the Vaul's Wrath farther onto the table, don't you end up leaving your cover save behind? I would try and just get them into some kind of ruins or forest in the middle of the map, or as close to as possible. Even if you stayed by the ADL, the drop pod armies will just drop down behind you anyway, with grav and fire 20something rerollable shots that wound on 3+, so I am not sure how useful it would be against skyhammer?

I am envisioning Jain Zar leading combination of Storm Guardians, Banshees, and Blade Wraiths as a kick ass counter attack force, or in conjunction with DE, taking raiders up a flank and causing havoc.

 Acidian wrote:
Ah, I thought majority toughness was used here as well. Having T7 will be so good. It had not occured to me that I could use Will of Asuryan in this way before, that is a pretty cool idea, thanks!
Regarding the ADL, since you are using Eldrad to scout the Vaul's Wrath farther onto the table, don't you end up leaving your cover save behind? I would try and just get them into some kind of ruins or forest in the middle of the map, or as close to as possible. Even if you stayed by the ADL, the drop pod armies will just drop down behind you anyway, with grav and fire 20something rerollable shots that wound on 3+, so I am not sure how useful it would be against skyhammer?

That was what I was talking about if the enemy comes to you. For example a grav cannon skyhammer will essentially put all their juicy targets within 24" of this battery no matter where you deploy, thus you don't have to scout. The scout can be used on other units in this case. If you face something that is likely to sit back more you can scout this to control the center (hopefully in a ruins).

Against skyhammer you circle the ADL around the battery. The ADL doesn't have to be a straight line it can also be a box. BTW the gravs wound this on a 5+ as the majority save is 5+ not 3+. With these two factors this is a very good way to whether a grav drop. The dangerous part of using this is that a lucky assault from a ASM squad can wipe the unit, so make sure you disperse some units around it to block close in DSing, unless you stick an autarch in here. Actually an autarch with wings is kind of hilarious as he can reliably assault 24", meaning a grav dev unit could be assaulted after being shot.

ansacs wrote:

 Acidian wrote:
Ah, I thought majority toughness was used here as well. Having T7 will be so good. It had not occured to me that I could use Will of Asuryan in this way before, that is a pretty cool idea, thanks!
Regarding the ADL, since you are using Eldrad to scout the Vaul's Wrath farther onto the table, don't you end up leaving your cover save behind? I would try and just get them into some kind of ruins or forest in the middle of the map, or as close to as possible. Even if you stayed by the ADL, the drop pod armies will just drop down behind you anyway, with grav and fire 20something rerollable shots that wound on 3+, so I am not sure how useful it would be against skyhammer?

That was what I was talking about if the enemy comes to you. For example a grav cannon skyhammer will essentially put all their juicy targets within 24" of this battery no matter where you deploy, thus you don't have to scout. The scout can be used on other units in this case. If you face something that is likely to sit back more you can scout this to control the center (hopefully in a ruins).

Against skyhammer you circle the ADL around the battery. The ADL doesn't have to be a straight line it can also be a box. BTW the gravs wound this on a 5+ as the majority save is 5+ not 3+. With these two factors this is a very good way to whether a grav drop. The dangerous part of using this is that a lucky assault from a ASM squad can wipe the unit, so make sure you disperse some units around it to block close in DSing, unless you stick an autarch in here. Actually an autarch with wings is kind of hilarious as he can reliably assault 24", meaning a grav dev unit could be assaulted after being shot.

I like this idea. I am not sure what I would put around the ADL to deny a charge (well probably bikes), as I have a feeling that unit will die just to allow the assault marines to charge (helps with target saturation off course). After looking at the options I think Autarch is the best idea here as well, and wings on autarch is awesome so you can go tank or devestator hunting afterwards. Having both Eldrad and an Autarch here makes it a pretty expensive unit though. I also find it kind of scary that an eviscerator (S8?) can one shot both as none of them have eternal warrior. What would have been funny is to have Baharroth so the unit gets Hit & Run. 170 points well spent.

I still think 2 units of WG in serpents might be the best supporting unit, so you can give them scout? That way you can scout 12", drive 6", turn your tank 180 and gain an inch or two in the process, disembark another 6" and threaten 8"/12" from there. You could go for another unit of Vaul's Wrath, but I don't like having two units that have no mobility.

TheNewBlood wrote:I've been thinking about how to put together lists with the Warhost, and I've settled on a rather basic format: Guardian Battlehost + Aspect Host. This brings me to 1750 points. My problem lies in effectively expanding this to 1850 and 200 points. With the way our formations work, it's neither possible nor effective to bulk up what I already have. I feel I have two options for expanding:

1. Engines of Vaul. One Nightspinner gets me to 1850 points, and an additional Fire Prism gets me to 2000 with some room for upgrades. I feel this is my best option for expanding.

2. Command formations. An Autarch can take me to 1850, or a Seer Council can take me to 2000. There are Phoenix Lords to consider as well, especially now that they are much more effective.

I wonder if anyone else has some ideas about how to expand on an existing Craftworld Warhost?

I would recommend a nightspinner that you can expand to 2 night spinners. I have seen these being used to great effect lately. They are versatile with their profiles, and having 2 in a unit scales well compared to just having 1.

That said, you are better off running a regular CAD with an aspect formation on the side. That way you are more free to chose how many units you want to use of each type. The windrider formation is considered the best core formation for the craftworld warhost. I can understand it if you want to base a list around guardians if you like them. but 3 units might be too much.

Quick question brothers, can vauls artillery move and shoot? What are you equiping your wave serpents with?

Autarch with swooping hawk wings and a fusion gun and a banshee mask is amazing! He is an excellent anti-tank weapon platform with the fusion gun and haywire grenade charge. Most of my list are cc oriented and him denying overwatch is huge! He makes a lot of the CC Dark Eldar units more effective such as the wyches, who normally die because of overwatch. A beast pack unit with with all there str 4 attacks striking at I 6 because of the Autarch grenades. Not to mention the bonuses to reserve rolls allow power from pain to be more effective.

Notice how I said more effective, I feel a lot of people focus their attention on the destructive power of a unit. Example wyches are not good because they can't kill anything but, wyches are suppose to tie up units and with an autarch denying overwatch they can do that a lot better, the beast pack unit should have a turn 2 charge taking advantage of his 18 inch move and you can place him upfront because you don't have to worry about overwatch.

Autarch with wings is nice indeed. I find his 12" movement a bonus, but especially his 18" move when he breaks off from a squad to do a long charge.

Note that while the autarch has grenades, the squad he joins will not benefit from them, so no beast packs swinging at initiative, sadly.

As to your question, no, most Vaul's wrath cannot move and shoot as they are artillery and have to snap shoot. Gunners can move and shoot their catapults, but that's about it.

If I take the guardian battle host and I take a twenty man squad of guardians are both platforms free or just the first one?