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"I got my degree from PClaw. You don't dare question a lawyer whose alma mater could be read as Power Claw!"

 Polonius wrote:


Not always. A good chunk of people with legal academic degrees never even sit for the bar exam. Also, there is no oversight for awarding degrees. I can award anybody I like an LLM from the Polonius College of Law. Plenty of cranks have "Degrees" from diploma mills.

In my experience, the worst of them get their degrees from brand-name universities, places like Cornell and NYU.
The pressure to pass paying customers is ubiquitous,
and the end result is that a brand name degree affords the holder prima facie regard when it is all the more undeserved.
Frankly, it doesn't matter where you go for a degree, it matters only what you do there and after.
This guy could have gotten his degree from Columbia, and still been a "crank".
Lots of good people who work hard can't get into brand name schools, and they end up better informed and better at their jobs than others who do.
Mostly, people seem to go to big name schools because they have the money and want to meet other people who have the money.
That or scholarships and of course brand name recognition.
I could have gotten into most anywhere, but chose a top-50 school instead of a top 10 or 20 for a lot of reasons.
Now, i can hardly sit in the same room with a lot of people who came out of brand name places,
as if Harvard makes them know more simply because their diplomas say "Harvard".
Anyways, just to be fair to hard working people with degrees from lesser-known schools, that's all.

 Bookwrack wrote:
"I got my degree from PClaw. You don't dare question a lawyer whose alma mater could be read as Power Claw!"

Let's see where this goes. While there appears to be some butthurt in the papers, he makes several legitimate points from what I can see here.

I think we can all agree that GW's business itself has been pretty dodgy on occasion, and while their website does say that they pretty much accept any return, it's bs, as I can attest from experience, miscasts will not be refunded if, between the time you buy it and the time you get it, it becomes OOP or was in any way a limited release..

And, for those pish poshing the 50k% markup, and that GW has factories someplace, I'll point out that every single GW product is now marked 'made in China' from what I could tell perusing my local store. Pointing to a local example, you can import all the Russian Steel you like as long as it touches a US rolling mill. Also, I took the time to run some of this past a pal of mine who owns a factory in New York, and he said he could have the sprues for a single GW mini does for about 10 cents. So, if they're getting them in China for 3, that pans out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AduroT wrote:

"HOY!, I represents Gitsquisha, Deffthumper, and Krumpinator, LLC!"

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let's see where this goes. While there appears to be some butthurt in the papers, he makes several legitimate points from what I can see here.

I think we can all agree that GW's business itself has been pretty dodgy on occasion, and while their website does say that they pretty much accept any return, it's bs, as I can attest from experience, miscasts will not be refunded if, between the time you buy it and the time you get it, it becomes OOP or was in any way a limited release..

And, for those pish poshing the 50k% markup, and that GW has factories someplace, I'll point out that every single GW product is now marked 'made in China' from what I could tell perusing my local store. Pointing to a local example, you can import all the Russian Steel you like as long as it touches a US rolling mill. Also, I took the time to run some of this past a pal of mine who owns a factory in New York, and he said he could have the sprues for a single GW mini does for about 10 cents. So, if they're getting them in China for 3, that pans out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AduroT wrote:

"HOY!, I represents Gitsquisha, Deffthumper, and Krumpinator, LLC!"

Not sure you checked very carefully. Silver tower, the gyro bomber and the skyfires I just bought all have the same label.

Blue socks with Khakis?

Now I know you can't be trusted.

 TalonZahn wrote:
Blue socks with Khakis?

Now I know you can't be trusted.

I'm colour-blind.
On topic it does annoy me when people equate the cost of raw materials with the cost of a product. The wages of the staff designing and manufacturing the product is by far the biggest cost.

Chikout wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Blue socks with Khakis?

Now I know you can't be trusted.

I'm colour-blind.
On topic it does annoy me when people equate the cost of raw materials with the cost of a product. The wages of the staff designing and manufacturing the product is by far the biggest cost.

Well, that depends on what you're making the product out of

Indeed not only that but there's the continued cost of production and upkeep of the machines and infrastructure. If we were only paw the RAW material cost of most of what we buy the prices would be tiny compared to what they are. There are very few if any companies that can run for any length of time charging profit only on the material costs of their product. You've got to factor in staff wages and design and shipping and such.


As for returns and refunds this seems to vary abroad. In the UK GW support is very very good and generally deals with problems very quickly without any hassle.

 AduroT wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:
"I got my degree from PClaw. You don't dare question a lawyer whose alma mater could be read as Power Claw!"

I wish I had such finely equipped lawyers at my job, we'd get stuff done.

So to summarise:

This guy comes across as crazy and pretends to be a woman for his dodgy ebay store, and Spikey Bits are taking the turd he's dropped and smearing it all over their face going 'Look at me! Look at me! I'm relevant!'

I can't say I've ever received a refund for GW (thought I've never specifically requested money back), but any time I've had a complaint about a product, they've sent a replacement. Items GW has replaced include a missing shieldvane from a Necron Tomb Blad sprue, Slaughterpriest model from the first monthly WD issue (Yeah. The one that was free. GW seriously sent me a free model that I didn't pay for in the first place), the griff hound card for Silver Tower, and an entire 8th edition rulebook (the one I bought had a misprint on 8 pages). I offered to return the defective book, but GW told me to keep it. Say what you want about GW, but their customer service is really good, at least in the US.

Chikout wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Let's see where this goes. While there appears to be some butthurt in the papers, he makes several legitimate points from what I can see here.

I think we can all agree that GW's business itself has been pretty dodgy on occasion, and while their website does say that they pretty much accept any return, it's bs, as I can attest from experience, miscasts will not be refunded if, between the time you buy it and the time you get it, it becomes OOP or was in any way a limited release..

And, for those pish poshing the 50k% markup, and that GW has factories someplace, I'll point out that every single GW product is now marked 'made in China' from what I could tell perusing my local store. Pointing to a local example, you can import all the Russian Steel you like as long as it touches a US rolling mill. Also, I took the time to run some of this past a pal of mine who owns a factory in New York, and he said he could have the sprues for a single GW mini does for about 10 cents. So, if they're getting them in China for 3, that pans out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AduroT wrote:

"HOY!, I represents Gitsquisha, Deffthumper, and Krumpinator, LLC!"

Not sure you checked very carefully. Silver tower, the gyro bomber and the skyfires I just bought all have the same label.

The pretty picture is worthless thanks to UK law or what there is of it anyway.

"In addition to origin marking being voluntary, there are no detailed or prescriptive rules for working out the origin of a product. The nearest the law comes to prescribing rules is section 36 of the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 which states ‘goods shall be deemed to have been manufactured or produced in the country in which they last underwent a treatment or process resulting in a substantial change’. However the status and effect of this provision is unclear since most of the other provisions of the Act have been repealed (including the offences for breaching section 36) and there are no decided cases on the meaning of ‘substantial’."

So basicly the model is designed in the UK, manufactured in China and boxed I the UK with instructions and bases made in the UK and there covered.

Not that I think GW are doing the as they clearly Mark the products as made in China and made in the UK although the majority of kits do not say either.

Last rumour I heard has FW moving some of there production to China this was followed by all kits bigger than a Land Raider going to 11+ days minimum to order so who knows.

Was it signed in blood with a bloody thumbprint? Because that's REAAAALLY close to some SovCit woo.

 Polonius wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
...... got me at 110% being used as a term in the formal wording in a legal challenge.

I've read through it.

It's like someone who sits around watching Judge Judy all day just up and decided to draft their own legal papers.

Moral of the story: You ALWAYS need a lawyer.

The guy suing claims to have an LLM and thus supposedly is/was a lawyer at some point.

Not always. A good chunk of people with legal academic degrees never even sit for the bar exam. Also, there is no oversight for awarding degrees. I can award anybody I like an LLM from the Polonius College of Law. Plenty of cranks have "Degrees" from diploma mills.

Yes, hence the words "claims" and "supposedly".

Course, this being Dakka, I should have just said "Allegedly."

I'm pretty sure it's normal in the legal world to ask for everything you possibly could up front so that by the time you're essentially haggled down through the proceedings you still come out on top. I'm not a lawyer, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeff white wrote:

 Polonius wrote:


Not always. A good chunk of people with legal academic degrees never even sit for the bar exam. Also, there is no oversight for awarding degrees. I can award anybody I like an LLM from the Polonius College of Law. Plenty of cranks have "Degrees" from diploma mills.

In my experience, the worst of them get their degrees from brand-name universities, places like Cornell and NYU.
The pressure to pass paying customers is ubiquitous,
and the end result is that a brand name degree affords the holder prima facie regard when it is all the more undeserved.
Frankly, it doesn't matter where you go for a degree, it matters only what you do there and after.
This guy could have gotten his degree from Columbia, and still been a "crank".
Lots of good people who work hard can't get into brand name schools, and they end up better informed and better at their jobs than others who do.
Mostly, people seem to go to big name schools because they have the money and want to meet other people who have the money.
That or scholarships and of course brand name recognition.
I could have gotten into most anywhere, but chose a top-50 school instead of a top 10 or 20 for a lot of reasons.
Now, i can hardly sit in the same room with a lot of people who came out of brand name places,
as if Harvard makes them know more simply because their diplomas say "Harvard".
Anyways, just to be fair to hard working people with degrees from lesser-known schools, that's all.

True that.

As far as I know - GW on contrary pushed back their manufacture to UK - it was something to do with leakage of a product (not just a photo) - they can't control the production in China.
Also that is the reason as they miss a whole range of products - UK factories work on limits - so they expanding it (check up the numbers for investments) and emplys the whole range of moulding machine operator/workers etc.

So they are clearly take back factories to UK (also - maybe the weaker Pound made this transition faster, as it become profitable to produce things inside country)

Chikout wrote:

I'm colour-blind.
On topic it does annoy me when people equate the cost of raw materials with the cost of a product. The wages of the staff designing and manufacturing the product is by far the biggest cost.

I'll have to relate the story of the color blind IT tech and the color coded punchdown block sometime.

Having had some experience with exactly that sort of thing working with a factory owner looking to improve his automated and IT infrastructure, I can say that the more product you move, the more diluted those costs are, whereas material is constant. Past a certain volume (screwdrivers and tank pins in my case) those costs you mention become nearly negligible per item. While his screwdrivers might sell for $10 his actual costs were something like $2.

I know they were still UK based three or so years ago, because I applied for a job operating the molds (and yes, I totally planned to plunder miscast models. There may be a reason I wasn't hired...) but I dunno if they still are. I know the books and paints got outsourced, at least for a while.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
I know they were still UK based three or so years ago, because I applied for a job operating the molds (and yes, I totally planned to plunder miscast models. There may be a reason I wasn't hired...) but I dunno if they still are. I know the books and paints got outsourced, at least for a while.

Of course you didn't get hired, GW doesn't toss miscasts, they get pride of place right on the shelf under the premium Finecast label!

I agree with the majority here about how GW can mark up 50,000 percent do to that being their right. Civil laws do let you to sue for not just yourself, but in the way that makes the very notion no longer profitable, so he can sue for violating others intellectual property, however from that article we don't really see this. Lots of authors, manufactures, retailers, illustrators, etc have sold stuff that look like ALIENS and from the original books that contained space marines, so I don't see that part of the suit accomplishing much.

The big thing that GW has been doing but is in a weird grey area since not every country has the same laws is the American anti trust laws they are violating. If you don't believe GW is look up the hundreds of pages in anti trust laws and you'll see their is violations here. People and responses are bringing up the mattresses, however GW has tried numerous times to stop creation and retail of similar to their products which allows the trust laws to work. If they did not it would work like the manufacture laws allow the manufacturer to force a retailer to sell their stuff at a certain price, but if there isn't competition aka GW is forcing other companies to not make replicas then the anti trust laws wouldn't come into affect. You can say there are lots of alternate miniature wargames, so the competition does exist, however GW keeps claiming intellectual property to prevent any miniature game to being similar to theirs. This can be argued in itself that it limits the competition in the market, but they are making demands limiting distribution which makes it fall under the anti trust law zones.

I'm not saying GW should win or not win. I don't have a mastery of all the anti trust and monopoly laws along with knowledge about how it affects companies in other countries, but the guy does have enough of a legitimate claim to allow his attempt to sue,

KTar wrote:

The big thing that GW has been doing but is in a weird grey area since not every country has the same laws is the American trust laws they are violating. If you don't believe GW is look up the hundreds of pages in trust laws and you'll see their is violations here. People and responses are bringing up the mattresses, however GW has tried numerous times to stop creation and retail of similar to their products which allows the trust laws to work. If they did not it would work like the manufacture laws allow the manufacturer to force a retailer to sell their stuff at a certain price, but if there isn't competition aka GW is forcing other companies to not make replicas then the trust laws wouldn't come into affect. You can say there are lots of alternate miniature wargames, so the competition does exist, however GW keeps claiming intellectual property to prevent any miniature game to being similar to theirs. This can be argued in itself that it limits the competition in the market, but they are making demands limiting distribution which makes it fall under the trust law zones.

WTF?!? "American trust laws"? You mean anti-trust laws, which are very different from IP laws. The latter is what GW sued Chapterhouse and such for. GW has a monopoly on 40K because the US and other governments give them that monopoly through IP laws. No one has a right to copy or append onto other people's IP. And even if Chapterhouse was legally OK to make accessory parts for GW's models (or alternate models), we all know that what they were doing was intellectually dishonest. They and most of the East European resin manufacturers are the ones operating in the grey area by riding GW's coat tails but not compensating them for doing so. Why don't they make minis for their own setting. Because that's not what people want, another science fantasy game. 40K isn't an industry any more than Disney is. They have IP and they are ready to protect it.

I agree with everything you said. When I said trust laws it was obvious I was talking about anti trust laws. That's like me talking about murder laws and thinking Im talking about laws helping out murder. I'm baffled why you even wrote a response since you didn't disagree with anything I wrote here just got confused on me using the words trust laws. Sorry I changed the words to anti trust laws just so you aren't confused anymore.

 Jon Garrett wrote:
I know they were still UK based three or so years ago, because I applied for a job operating the molds (and yes, I totally planned to plunder miscast models. There may be a reason I wasn't hired...) but I dunno if they still are. I know the books and paints got outsourced, at least for a while.

Printing in the UK is expensive, first AFAIK Games Workshop do not wn a press, also paper is expensive in the UK. Many UK publishers print in the far east and import the bulk of their stock, and most heavy cardstock comes from the far east. Games Workshop follow hat trend, but credit where credit is due, they manufacture most of their stock in the UK rather than outsource it all unlike many of their competitors.

jeff white wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

In my experience, the worst of them get their degrees from brand-name universities, places like Cornell and NYU.
The pressure to pass paying customers is ubiquitous,
and the end result is that a brand name degree affords the holder prima facie regard when it is all the more undeserved.
Frankly, it doesn't matter where you go for a degree, it matters only what you do there and after.
This guy could have gotten his degree from Columbia, and still been a "crank".
Lots of good people who work hard can't get into brand name schools, and they end up better informed and better at their jobs than others who do.
Mostly, people seem to go to big name schools because they have the money and want to meet other people who have the money.
That or scholarships and of course brand name recognition.
I could have gotten into most anywhere, but chose a top-50 school instead of a top 10 or 20 for a lot of reasons.
Now, i can hardly sit in the same room with a lot of people who came out of brand name places,
as if Harvard makes them know more simply because their diplomas say "Harvard".
Anyways, just to be fair to hard working people with degrees from lesser-known schools, that's all.

Oh, I went to a law school well below the top 50, so I'm not hating on where people go to school. I think we're in agreement more than anything, which is that people do not understand the difference between a law degree, which is an academic degree, and a license to practice to law. Admittedly, having a law degree is essentially mandatory to pass the bar, but not all law degrees qualify.

Platuan4th wrote:Yes, hence the words "claims" and "supposedly". Course, this being Dakka, I should have just said "Allegedly."

Oh, I was just commenting because I didn't see him actually claim to be a lawyer, merely that he held an LLM.

Quarterdime wrote:I'm pretty sure it's normal in the legal world to ask for everything you possibly could up front so that by the time you're essentially haggled down through the proceedings you still come out on top. I'm not a lawyer, though.

That's true, but your initial demand still needs some grounding in reality to be taken even remotely seriously.

Look, this is NOT going to go anywhere. First, the UK is part of an international legal system that passed a 2013 & 2015 law that practically defeats these types of cases. This crazy guy has to serve GW. In order to do that he sends it to this agency in the UK that reviews incoming international lawsuits. If they deny it, it's done. That agency is currently at a 14 month turn around time. IF they decide to serve GW on behalf of this guy, GW has up to 4 years to take action. Also, this nut job has all the burden of proof. It will take years and thousands of dollars for this. This international law that was passed in 2013 & 2015 also denies any legal fees to be part of any settlement or judgement. THEN, the UK does not even have to force GW to accept the outcome! There's no actual way to make them pay if they have to. The UK is one of the countries that has a 95% rejection rate for incoming US lawsuits & a 0% enforcement on the judgements. The judgement and arbitration in the UK is currently averaging 20 years...

 krazynadechukr wrote:
Look, this is NOT going to go anywhere. First, the UK is part of an international legal system that passed a 2013 & 2015 law that practically defeats these types of cases. This crazy guy has to serve GW. In order to do that he sends it to this agency in the UK that reviews incoming international lawsuits. If they deny it, it's done. That agency is currently at a 14 month turn around time. IF they decide to serve GW on behalf of this guy, GW has up to 4 years to take action. Also, this nut job has all the burden of proof. It will take years and thousands of dollars for this. This international law that was passed in 2013 & 2015 also denies any legal fees to be part of any settlement or judgement. THEN, the UK does not even have to force GW to accept the outcome! There's no actual way to make them pay if they have to. The UK is one of the countries that has a 95% rejection rate for incoming US lawsuits & a 0% enforcement on the judgements. The judgement and arbitration in the UK is currently averaging 20 years...

Except that they're not suing Games Workship in the UK. They are suing them in the US in federal court. The last time I checked, Games Workshop does business in the US; that's an understatement, North America is their largest market and is driving their recovery.

Anyhow, the real problem with this case is its scope. He really should have just picked out an area where he has some teeth, like retail practices.

 krazynadechukr wrote:
Look, this is NOT going to go anywhere. First, the UK is part of an international legal system that passed a 2013 & 2015 law that practically defeats these types of cases. This crazy guy has to serve GW. In order to do that he sends it to this agency in the UK that reviews incoming international lawsuits. If they deny it, it's done. That agency is currently at a 14 month turn around time. IF they decide to serve GW on behalf of this guy, GW has up to 4 years to take action. Also, this nut job has all the burden of proof. It will take years and thousands of dollars for this. This international law that was passed in 2013 & 2015 also denies any legal fees to be part of any settlement or judgement. THEN, the UK does not even have to force GW to accept the outcome! There's no actual way to make them pay if they have to. The UK is one of the countries that has a 95% rejection rate for incoming US lawsuits & a 0% enforcement on the judgements. The judgement and arbitration in the UK is currently averaging 20 years...

Because this case is being conducted under US tort law, not English civil law, or international suits over at WTO. Because both he and GW supposedly do business in the area of South Florida he can sue GW there and they're legally obligated to respond of face a summery judgement against them, under US law. As far as 'enforcement' of the claim, the UK does not have to force an enforcement, the US will do it for them, seizing GW's goods, bank assets, and properties in the US. Since GW pays it's employees in the US, it has bank balances there that can be seized. Losing the IP in the US would be the worst part though, as under this the trustees could, theoretically, license other casters with the right to produce GW figures, and do so legally.

Personally, if I was GW, I'd seek a change of venue as South Florida is a VERY bad place for accusations of Fraud in particular as juries have NO sense of humor about that at all and are inclined to side with the accusing party. He might write like someone throwing a gak-fit but he's actually picked his battleground with some forethought. Since he's asking for a trial by jury, the numerous charges he's bringing are designed to make GW look pretty bad in front of the jurors, and it may just work.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 krazynadechukr wrote:
Look, this is NOT going to go anywhere. First, the UK is part of an international legal system that passed a 2013 & 2015 law that practically defeats these types of cases. This crazy guy has to serve GW. In order to do that he sends it to this agency in the UK that reviews incoming international lawsuits. If they deny it, it's done. That agency is currently at a 14 month turn around time. IF they decide to serve GW on behalf of this guy, GW has up to 4 years to take action. Also, this nut job has all the burden of proof. It will take years and thousands of dollars for this. This international law that was passed in 2013 & 2015 also denies any legal fees to be part of any settlement or judgement. THEN, the UK does not even have to force GW to accept the outcome! There's no actual way to make them pay if they have to. The UK is one of the countries that has a 95% rejection rate for incoming US lawsuits & a 0% enforcement on the judgements. The judgement and arbitration in the UK is currently averaging 20 years...

Because this case is being conducted under US tort law, not English civil law, or international suits over at WTO. Because both he and GW supposedly do business in the area of South Florida he can sue GW there and they're legally obligated to respond of face a summery judgement against them, under US law. As far as 'enforcement' of the claim, the UK does not have to force an enforcement, the US will do it for them, seizing GW's goods, bank assets, and properties in the US. Since GW pays it's employees in the US, it has bank balances there that can be seized. Losing the IP in the US would be the worst part though, as under this the trustees could, theoretically, license other casters with the right to produce GW figures, and do so legally.

Personally, if I was GW, I'd seek a change of venue as South Florida is a VERY bad place for accusations of Fraud in particular as juries have NO sense of humor about that at all and are inclined to side with the accusing party. He might write like someone throwing a gak-fit but he's actually picked his battleground with some forethought. Since he's asking for a trial by jury, the numerous charges he's bringing are designed to make GW look pretty bad in front of the jurors, and it may just work.

Ha, as if it would get far enough for any of that to matter. Unless there's been a new update, he's already had his filing bounced back as, 'no, just no.' but with generous permission to fix his numerous failings and try again.

Sauce?

 AduroT wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:
"I got my degree from PClaw. You don't dare question a lawyer whose alma mater could be read as Power Claw!"

Gives new meaning to "grab 'em by the p*****"