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mrFickle wrote:
...Abbadon is in a 40K version of terminator armour isn’t he? He should be in Cataphractii/Tartaros


Technically not; his armour isn't a general pattern, it's a custom suit that's better than normal Terminator armour (in 30k it's called "Justaerin warplate" and gives 2+/4++ like Cataphractii but lets you Sweep normally like Tartaros). And even then Indomitus-pattern armour ("40k Terminator armour") was plenty widespread during the Heresy.

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Given how ancient it is, plus it must have received favors from the dark gods and all, it should really be at least as good as a Storm Shield...
   
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Eldenfirefly wrote:
Given how ancient it is, plus it must have received favors from the dark gods and all, it should really be at least as good as a Storm Shield...



It does, its got a 4++ and halves all damage taken.

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I'd love to see chaos feel more archaic. I haven't played chaos for several editions (I do have a box of chaos but it's very outdated), but unless things have changed greatly, they are supposed to be based around older technology and daemonic power. I'd love to see "lost technology" mixed with "Daemon engine" to make some unique units which resemble those you find in 30k, but after 10k years of daemonic warpage.


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 PaddyMick wrote:
The best solution to making chaos great again would be to bring back Andy Chambers to the design team.


I think about Andy Chambers a lot, and still have the 2002 chaos codex. The thing is that his rules permanently mangled the game, the background, the players, the meta, and particularly relevant to chaos space marines.

At one point, any marine, any model with strength 4, got -1 ap in close combat. A chaos marine was special by itself. Then when the edition changed to third, you then had to use more-specialer units to get any kind of AP. Chaos marines. Chaos marines were demoted. Their bolt guns don’t affect any army’s saves, and with ap5 didn’t effect most armies the either. If you want to shoot in the 2002 dex you need noise marines or plasma gun caddies. Marines don’t do anything, they’re just there. Of course chaos armies take anything as troops but basic marine. If loyalists had cultists they might not waste time with basic marines either.

It’s what happened to loyalist assault squads. http://www.irondogstudios.com/images/Ultra/ultra1.jpg" target="_new" rel="nofollow">They used to get power weapons. Then they lost the power weapons, and were a bit pointless, and then Vanguard Vets were invented, and assault squads continue to stand around looking useless. Chaos marines are just there, being bodies.

Andy Chambers letting us pay points for furious charge doesn’t change that. You just save the points and spend it on a unit that can take power weapons.

drbored wrote:
they keep outshining what should be the stars of the codex: the actual Chaos Marines.


Yeah, in games the basic marine troops can’t do much heavy lifting by themselves but in other armies sometimes they can.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Of all the races, Chaos has probably changed the most since the earliest days, both in terms of aesthetics, background and army style.

And from reading through this thread, I think that’s an underlying problem. They’ve been through so many different iterations, there are a wide variety of wants and preferences in the player base.

Now I am not going to say anyone iteration is better, worse or preferred etc. But they do need to be unified. That’s not quite the right word, but close enough.

So those who really like the original “small warbands of loonies, lead by a powerful champion” should be able to do that, whilst people wanting Remnants Of The Legions style should be able to do that, too. And everything in between.

But I’m not sure that can be done in a single Codex.

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It's the one thing the Traitor Legions formations did well IMO. You had your core Warband but then could take different smaller formations to supplement it. You could go bare minimum on the core then splurge on Daemon Engine Packs or Raptor Hosts, or you could go heavy into the main one and build a proper Warband. The Cult Legions even had their own special core Warbands.
   
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Ugh. The only thing I didn't like about Traitor Legions was the inclusion of formations. They basically said "Oh, you want ALL of your Legion's rules? Well, then buy/play the models WE want you to buy/play. Otherwise, you get HALF of your rules". And of course, fw wasn't on the menu.
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Of all the races, Chaos has probably changed the most since the earliest days, both in terms of aesthetics, background and army style.

And from reading through this thread, I think that’s an underlying problem. They’ve been through so many different iterations, there are a wide variety of wants and preferences in the player base.

Now I am not going to say anyone iteration is better, worse or preferred etc. But they do need to be unified. That’s not quite the right word, but close enough.

So those who really like the original “small warbands of loonies, lead by a powerful champion” should be able to do that, whilst people wanting Remnants Of The Legions style should be able to do that, too. And everything in between.

But I’m not sure that can be done in a single Codex.


I think they could, they just need to use the models that they have (and that are coming) to close gaps in both the range and the rules. I think I mentioned it before, but I'd like to see them let you build these 3 different 'themes' of army, and it should be doable.

A. Chaos Marine Legions
-These armies would be full of regular Chaos Marines, typical vehicles (Predator, Vindicator, Land Raider), and other tac-ons, like Havocs, Bikers, and Terminators. These armies would benefit the most from Legion Traits since most of the units would have the 'Heretic Astartes' keywords, and therefore would be affected by those sorts of traits and stratagems.

B. Daemon Engine Warband
-These armies would have plenty of units with the Daemon keyword. Lead by a Master of Possession, Daemon Prince, or Greater Possessed, they'd have the stuff you'd expect, from Possessed and Spawn, to Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Defilers, and Venomcrawlers. Taking full advantage of their chaotic nature through stratagems, improved invulnerable saves, and higher toughness, you could have quite a beastly army.

C. Cultist Uprising
-Motivated to rise up against the Imperium by a Dark Apostle or charismatic Chaos Lord, these would focus on Cultists and upcoming rumored things, like traitor guard, mutants, and other things that are rumored to be coming. Chaos Marines could still form an elite backbone to this themed force, but you could otherwise focus on mobs of cultists and their support elements. These would be units that wouldn't have either the Heretic Astartes NOR the Daemon keyword, but maybe have a 'Cultist' or 'Renegade' keyword.

And then of course you'd have the option to mix and match however you see fit. The trend for GW however is that old models suck and new models rock, so I'm fully expecting that those that want a Chaos Marine Legion are going to be disappointed with how Raptors, Warp Talons, or any of the Chaos Marine classic vehicles operate, and they likely won't improve on those. Meanwhile, Cultist Uprising type units are going to be the new hotness, so I'm expecting that theme of army to be busted and awesome, while the Daemon Engine Warband was yesterday's hotness and will likely get nerfed. Because of this tendency, nobody will be happy except those that always wanted the Renegades and Heretics army to become a thing, which will drown out everyone that just wanted to play their Alpha Legion or Black Legion without all the extra junk.
   
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Seeing how badly cultists have been nerfed over time, and how GW have restricted the use of cultists (mere mortals) and taken away keywords (like obsec) from them. I wouldn't get my hopes up that cultist uprising is somehow going to be the new hotness.

Just look at what is unique to CSM and not Tsons and DG. That would likely be the more buffed units in the CSM codex would be my guess.

So, it will be the following (not counting the HQs):

Obliterators, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Possessed, Venomcrawlers, Havocs, possibly Lord of Skulls. (Not a very big list honestly).

If you include HQs: All the unique named characters, Master of Execution, Dark Apostle, Master of Possession, Warpsmith, Lord Discordant. (But don't count on this, HQs can't win the game all by themselves).

Everything else will be similar to space marine firstborn stats, so don't expect anything except that 1 more wound. We have already seen the new stats of Defilers, Helldrakes, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Hellbrutes, Chaos Spawn and all the astartes vehicles too, so don't expect anything different.

There might be army wide legion or warband rules that propel a particular type of CSM army into the OP zone, but I wouldn't bet on it.
   
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Eldenfirefly wrote:
Seeing how badly cultists have been nerfed over time, and how GW have restricted the use of cultists (mere mortals) and taken away keywords (like obsec) from them. I wouldn't get my hopes up that cultist uprising is somehow going to be the new hotness.

Just look at what is unique to CSM and not Tsons and DG. That would likely be the more buffed units in the CSM codex would be my guess.

So, it will be the following (not counting the HQs):

Obliterators, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Possessed, Venomcrawlers, Havocs, possibly Lord of Skulls. (Not a very big list honestly).

If you include HQs: All the unique named characters, Master of Execution, Dark Apostle, Master of Possession, Warpsmith, Lord Discordant. (But don't count on this, HQs can't win the game all by themselves).

Everything else will be similar to space marine firstborn stats, so don't expect anything except that 1 more wound. We have already seen the new stats of Defilers, Helldrakes, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Hellbrutes, Chaos Spawn and all the astartes vehicles too, so don't expect anything different.

There might be army wide legion or warband rules that propel a particular type of CSM army into the OP zone, but I wouldn't bet on it.


This is where I'd love for Chaos Marines to get their own identity, instead of just being Space Marines with spikes. I don't give a flying octagon of crap about OP zone, and nobody is saying that stuff should be OP. We should just not feel like we're punished for playing with the toys we like, which has been a consistent issue with Chaos Marines for a long while now. Heck, taking Obliterators with any mark other than Slaanesh is like purposefully using dice that don't have any 6's on them.

And what I'm going off of is essentially the rumordump that happened a while back that suggested we're getting:
Chaos Cultists
Traitor Guard
Mutated Mortals
Cultist Icon Bearer
Cultist Character w/Bodyguard

on top of the Possessed, Bikers, Chosen, and Warpsmith. With all those kits focused around Cultists, I'd be surprised if the goal wasn't to have some sort of 'Cult Uprising' type playstyle army out of the book. My worry is that it will come at the expense of the classic Legion type lists.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

drbored wrote:
Spoiler:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Seeing how badly cultists have been nerfed over time, and how GW have restricted the use of cultists (mere mortals) and taken away keywords (like obsec) from them. I wouldn't get my hopes up that cultist uprising is somehow going to be the new hotness.

Just look at what is unique to CSM and not Tsons and DG. That would likely be the more buffed units in the CSM codex would be my guess.

So, it will be the following (not counting the HQs):

Obliterators, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Possessed, Venomcrawlers, Havocs, possibly Lord of Skulls. (Not a very big list honestly).

If you include HQs: All the unique named characters, Master of Execution, Dark Apostle, Master of Possession, Warpsmith, Lord Discordant. (But don't count on this, HQs can't win the game all by themselves).

Everything else will be similar to space marine firstborn stats, so don't expect anything except that 1 more wound. We have already seen the new stats of Defilers, Helldrakes, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Hellbrutes, Chaos Spawn and all the astartes vehicles too, so don't expect anything different.

There might be army wide legion or warband rules that propel a particular type of CSM army into the OP zone, but I wouldn't bet on it.


This is where I'd love for Chaos Marines to get their own identity, instead of just being Space Marines with spikes. I don't give a flying octagon of crap about OP zone, and nobody is saying that stuff should be OP. We should just not feel like we're punished for playing with the toys we like, which has been a consistent issue with Chaos Marines for a long while now. Heck, taking Obliterators with any mark other than Slaanesh is like purposefully using dice that don't have any 6's on them.

And what I'm going off of is essentially the rumordump that happened a while back that suggested we're getting:
Chaos Cultists
Traitor Guard
Mutated Mortals
Cultist Icon Bearer
Cultist Character w/Bodyguard

on top of the Possessed, Bikers, Chosen, and Warpsmith. With all those kits focused around Cultists, I'd be surprised if the goal wasn't to have some sort of 'Cult Uprising' type playstyle army out of the book. My worry is that it will come at the expense of the classic Legion type lists.

As you pointed out, we're also getting several new kits for actual Astartes units: Possessed, Bikers, Warpsmith, and Chosen. So they're paying attention to our Astartes stuff as well. I'm most interested in what they do with the Chosen. They've been paying a lot of attention to them the last couple of years for a unit that doesn't even have models to sell. How many other units got rules updates in Vigilus/CSM "2" that didn't get new models, much less ones without models?

And most of those "human" units probably won't be getting whatever our "Astartes" keyword is going to be (it won't be <HERETIC ASTARTES>, it's a secondary keyword in Thousand Sons and Death Guard, even the daemon engines have it. <BUBONIC ASTARTES> and <ARCANA ASTARTES> are what sets the actual Astartes units apart). Depending on what that does, it could be important. Maybe we'll get lucky, and it'll be something like <VETERAN OF THE LONG WAR>, and give everything with it +1 WS/BS. Or maybe it'll just give +1 Leadership. But I'd wait to see before counting our Marines out.
   
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Yeah, getting Bikers and Chosen is going to go a long way to filling up the gaps that we have in the range, and hopefully they do get decent rules.

I'm just not going to hope for anything. It's been hard for me to enjoy Chaos Marines ever since 5th edition, and I'm not betting that this will be any different. :/
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

I think it's also a mistake to assume our Astartes will be getting "firstborn stats". Looking at other "non-vanilla" Astartes factions like Grey Knights, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons, it's possible our Astartes will have a little more "oomph" than firstborn.
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ugh. The only thing I didn't like about Traitor Legions was the inclusion of formations. They basically said "Oh, you want ALL of your Legion's rules? Well, then buy/play the models WE want you to buy/play. Otherwise, you get HALF of your rules". And of course, fw wasn't on the menu.

I know the FW stuff wasn't available but I don't really think it was "buy this or don't get rules". The core formation was what, an HQ, 2 CSM squads, and one of each other slot? Hardly wallet gouging. Considering the number of things CSM had in Elites, Fast and Heavy Support at the time I would have said it wasn't like you were forced to choose terrible or expensive options either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/18 17:19:08


 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Gert wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ugh. The only thing I didn't like about Traitor Legions was the inclusion of formations. They basically said "Oh, you want ALL of your Legion's rules? Well, then buy/play the models WE want you to buy/play. Otherwise, you get HALF of your rules". And of course, fw wasn't on the menu.

I know the FW stuff wasn't available but I don't really think it was "buy this or don't get rules". The core formation was what, an HQ, 2 CSM squads, and one of each other slot? Hardly wallet gouging. Considering the number of things CSM had in Elites, Fast and Heavy Support at the time I would have said it wasn't like you were forced to choose terrible or expensive options either.

Depended on your personal collection. The only ones I could do were: Chaos Warband, Raptor Talon, and Terminator Annihilation Force. And I wasn't about to go out and buy models I didn't like just for the privilege of leaving the ones I already owned and DID like at home. No Contemptors, Sicarans, or Dreadclaws. Ugh. It was definitely a case of "You can ONLY use THESE, and ONLY THESE, if you want all of your rules". That kind of regimented army design doesn't belong in Chaos Space Marines. And I'm sure it was just a "coincidence" that all of the available units were gw kits and not fw.
   
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But it was a GW publication though, it was never going to have FW products available in the first place. It would have been nice sure but it's not like any other armies got FW units in their formations either.
And just so we're clear on this, you could field the core formation and two of the supplementary ones. You've said before you don't like Daemon Engines, so what exactly were you not getting included in the rules? Vehicles IIRC didn't benefit from Legion Traits and formations weren't Force Orgs so you weren't restricted from taking any of the units you listed anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/18 19:10:10


 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Gert wrote:
But it was a GW publication though, it was never going to have FW products available in the first place. It would have been nice sure but it's not like any other armies got FW units in their formations either.
And just so we're clear on this, you could field the core formation and two of the supplementary ones. You've said before you don't like Daemon Engines, so what exactly were you not getting included in the rules? Vehicles IIRC didn't benefit from Legion Traits and formations weren't Force Orgs so you weren't restricted from taking any of the units you listed anyway.

No, but I was required to take 1 Raptor Talon or Chaos Warband + 1 Auxiliary, which was always the Terminator Annihilation Force, because that's all I could do. So I had to take, and pay for, three squads of terminators and a character whether I wanted to or not. That was what I didn't like, having units required to get Nocturnal Warfare and Strike First, Strike Hard. And Strike First, Strike Hard did work for dreadnoughts, but it didn't matter because Contemptors had Fleet anyway. I just didn't like having to take specific units to get my rules. I much preferred the Combined Arms detachment.

But there's no point in arguing about old rules. You liked them, I didn't. They're gone. Doesn't matter anymore.
   
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no thats not "all you could do"
It was "all I allowed myself to do within the the restrictions I had placed upon myself"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

BrianDavion wrote:
no thats not "all you could do"
It was "all I allowed myself to do within the the restrictions I had placed upon myself"

Right! I could have paid MORE MONEY for MODELS THAT I DIDN'T LIKE! Silly restriction on my part, wasn't it?
   
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The entire formation system was an obvious ploy to sell specific models, that should have been clear the moment they started selling them as bundles.
   
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Crownworld Astilia

Well considering that Beard from Tabletop Tactics was of the opinion that the current CSM codex shouldn't even be sold by GW in their latest discussion, it certainly isn't a good look for what was once the premier antagonists of the setting.

Just spitballing here but I feel like the actions system is an untapped resource for game mechanics that could have been more interesting/fulfilling than stratagems and purity bonuses.

For example all Infantry units with the Mark of Khorne can perform a "Blood Rite" action as follows.

After a unit with the Mark of Khorne destroys an enemy unit they can immediately perform a Blood Rite. This action is completed at the start of your next command phase. If the unit performing a Blood Rite is still on the battlefield and has not moved then they gain +1 to their hit rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Khorne Berzerker> unit then that unit gains +1 to their hit and wound rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Cultist> unit then you may choose one friendly unit with either the Mark of Khorne or <Khorne Berzerker> within 9". That unit counts as having completed the Blood Rite action. (Think DOW 2 when the cultists can build an altar and pray to it for an AoE buff)

I don't wanna get into the semantics of the possible buffs but to me actions like these can really define and add not only flavour but in-game tactical decision making for both players.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/19 13:37:46



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 kirotheavenger wrote:
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 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Well considering that Beard from Tabletop Tactics was of the opinion that the current CSM codex shouldn't even be sold by GW in their latest discussion, it certainly isn't a good look for what was once the premier antagonists of the setting.

Just spitballing here but I feel like the actions system is an untapped resource for game mechanics that could have been more interesting/fulfilling than stratagems and purity bonuses.

For example all Infantry units with the Mark of Khorne can perform a "Blood Rite" action as follows.

After a unit with the Mark of Khorne destroys an enemy unit they can immediately perform a Blood Rite. This action is completed at the start of your next command phase. If the unit performing a Blood Rite is still on the battlefield and has not moved then they gain +1 to their hit rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Khorne Berzerker> unit then that unit gains +1 to their hit and wound rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Cultist> unit then you may choose one friendly unit with either the Mark of Khorne or <Khorne Berzerker> within 9". That unit counts as having completed the Blood Rite action. (Think DOW 2 when the cultists can build an altar and pray to it for an AoE buff)

I don't wanna get into the semantics of the possible buffs but to me actions like these can really define and add not only flavour but in-game tactical decision making for both players.


Ooooh ! Sounds spicy and fluffy ! But wouldn't it be confusing to call it an action ? Since it implies it's all they can do for the turn ?

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Crownworld Astilia

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Spoiler:
 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Well considering that Beard from Tabletop Tactics was of the opinion that the current CSM codex shouldn't even be sold by GW in their latest discussion, it certainly isn't a good look for what was once the premier antagonists of the setting.

Just spitballing here but I feel like the actions system is an untapped resource for game mechanics that could have been more interesting/fulfilling than stratagems and purity bonuses.

For example all Infantry units with the Mark of Khorne can perform a "Blood Rite" action as follows.

After a unit with the Mark of Khorne destroys an enemy unit they can immediately perform a Blood Rite. This action is completed at the start of your next command phase. If the unit performing a Blood Rite is still on the battlefield and has not moved then they gain +1 to their hit rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Khorne Berzerker> unit then that unit gains +1 to their hit and wound rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Cultist> unit then you may choose one friendly unit with either the Mark of Khorne or <Khorne Berzerker> within 9". That unit counts as having completed the Blood Rite action. (Think DOW 2 when the cultists can build an altar and pray to it for an AoE buff)

I don't wanna get into the semantics of the possible buffs but to me actions like these can really define and add not only flavour but in-game tactical decision making for both players.


Ooooh ! Sounds spicy and fluffy ! But wouldn't it be confusing to call it an action ? Since it implies it's all they can do for the turn ?


Reason I think it should be an action is to give a trade-off or consequence. If you want a buff for the rest of the game, you gotta sacrifice something for it and the current rules for actions do just that. (You can still fight in the fight phase with units performing an action it's just doing anything else that breaks it.)


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 kirotheavenger wrote:
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Well considering that Beard from Tabletop Tactics was of the opinion that the current CSM codex shouldn't even be sold by GW in their latest discussion, it certainly isn't a good look for what was once the premier antagonists of the setting.

Just spitballing here but I feel like the actions system is an untapped resource for game mechanics that could have been more interesting/fulfilling than stratagems and purity bonuses.

For example all Infantry units with the Mark of Khorne can perform a "Blood Rite" action as follows.

After a unit with the Mark of Khorne destroys an enemy unit they can immediately perform a Blood Rite. This action is completed at the start of your next command phase. If the unit performing a Blood Rite is still on the battlefield and has not moved then they gain +1 to their hit rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Khorne Berzerker> unit then that unit gains +1 to their hit and wound rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Cultist> unit then you may choose one friendly unit with either the Mark of Khorne or <Khorne Berzerker> within 9". That unit counts as having completed the Blood Rite action. (Think DOW 2 when the cultists can build an altar and pray to it for an AoE buff)

I don't wanna get into the semantics of the possible buffs but to me actions like these can really define and add not only flavour but in-game tactical decision making for both players.


Ooooh ! Sounds spicy and fluffy ! But wouldn't it be confusing to call it an action ? Since it implies it's all they can do for the turn ?


Possibly tie such things into Army Specific Secondary Objectives?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Well considering that Beard from Tabletop Tactics was of the opinion that the current CSM codex shouldn't even be sold by GW in their latest discussion, it certainly isn't a good look for what was once the premier antagonists of the setting.

Just spitballing here but I feel like the actions system is an untapped resource for game mechanics that could have been more interesting/fulfilling than stratagems and purity bonuses.

For example all Infantry units with the Mark of Khorne can perform a "Blood Rite" action as follows.

After a unit with the Mark of Khorne destroys an enemy unit they can immediately perform a Blood Rite. This action is completed at the start of your next command phase. If the unit performing a Blood Rite is still on the battlefield and has not moved then they gain +1 to their hit rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Khorne Berzerker> unit then that unit gains +1 to their hit and wound rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Cultist> unit then you may choose one friendly unit with either the Mark of Khorne or <Khorne Berzerker> within 9". That unit counts as having completed the Blood Rite action. (Think DOW 2 when the cultists can build an altar and pray to it for an AoE buff)

I don't wanna get into the semantics of the possible buffs but to me actions like these can really define and add not only flavour but in-game tactical decision making for both players.

I like it. And it definitely falls under the heading of: Making Marks More Impactful. I'd like to see more stuff like this for Marks in addition to basic buffs to a unit's stats.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





As an iron warriors player who has alot of havoc's, terminators and daemon engines there are a few bits i would like to see...

Iron warriors legion trait improved and changed to include Daemon engines.

2 wound marines, 3 wound terminators 4 wound obliterators.

Warp Smith improved and able to have some sort of aura similar to tech marines, such as +1 to hit for vehicles.

Cultists/traitor guard slotted in somewhere.

I know it's not the best list but there are so so many things we need I can't even cover it all.
   
Made in au
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Australia

Rogerio134134 wrote:
4 wound obliterators.


Obliterators already have 4 wounds.

The Circle of Iniquity
The Fourth Seal
(HN) wrote:
It's an objectively mediocre book from the rule, lore, edition, content, hobby point of view.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




pelicaniforce wrote:
I think about Andy Chambers a lot, and still have the 2002 chaos codex. The thing is that his rules permanently mangled the game, the background, the players, the meta, and particularly relevant to chaos space marines.


I guarantee some suit found the AP system confusing and wanted it streamlined down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/20 23:08:24


 
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






At this point, i think i'll just pay 3pts extra on all my marines and play them with an extra wound.
And might as well have their legion traits work on all their units too (spooky rhinos wont break anything).


its just ridiculous at this point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/21 13:31:57


Admech Lucius
Drukhari
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