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Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
And yet the loyalists still have their Cataphractii/Tartaros and we don't. Riddle me that.
But now they're treated the same in the rules for loyalists because *mumble mumble* reasons *mumble mumble*...

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
And yet the loyalists still have their Cataphractii/Tartaros and we don't. Riddle me that.
But now they're treated the same in the rules for loyalists because *mumble mumble* reasons *mumble mumble*...


GW giveth and GW taketh away.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh




The irony is that cataphractii termis don’t benefit loyalists as much as traitors because they have access to storm shields...

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





macluvin wrote:
The irony is that cataphractii termis don’t benefit loyalists as much as traitors because they have access to storm shields...


And why is a 3++ invul save still even a thing at this point? They removed it from Knights, from Magnus, from Tsons, etc. 4++ should be the best you can get regardless of what variety of terminator, relic, or whatever armor you are using.
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





Eldenfirefly wrote:
macluvin wrote:
The irony is that cataphractii termis don’t benefit loyalists as much as traitors because they have access to storm shields...


And why is a 3++ invul save still even a thing at this point? They removed it from Knights, from Magnus, from Tsons, etc. 4++ should be the best you can get regardless of what variety of terminator, relic, or whatever armor you are using.


Storm shields no longer give 3++ to anyone except Custodes (even then, by virtue of Custodes pure army ability), Storm shields are 4++ and +1 to Armour.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Even so, limiting invulnerable saves to a specific number is arbitrary. Yes, the higher than number the more powerful it is, but the same power should be tempered with other rules, points costs, and rarity.

I don't think everything in an army should have a 3+ Invul save, but something like a Custodes - very expensive models that come in incredibly small numbers - doesn't seem too outlandish to me.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

The problem of having 3++ in custodes is that you have to give the other custodes rules banana bonuses to even compete with that.

And theres some stuff that keeps the 3++, like Kaldor Draigo. But now you cannot pay 2ppm to have all your space marine army with a 3++.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Table wrote:
That has nothing to do with you getting a WE or EC codex. I promise you, it is not coming this year. Or next year. Keep wishing however. It will make it come faster.
Sure thing buddy.

We'll just ignore the rumours of a WE Codex that come from a source that's yet to be wrong so far because you think it's "cute" that people might want such a thing. I mean, getting a WE Codex is just impossible. Like getting a DG Codex or 1KSons book, right? Or Primarchs. Or plastic Baneblades. Or any of the other things that people used to think utterly impossible and yet, here they are, real as anything. That's the point you missed, BTW. Completely missed. Over your head like a supersonic jet, it seems. Well done.

Unless you actually know something more than the rumours have suggested, then by all means tell us, or stow the attitude and take a hike, okeydokey?





How can the WE have a codex when they are not a legion? Id say those rumors should be taken with heavy grains of salt. What is bigger than a grain? Well, I would take the rumors with that amount of salt.
Again, false equivalencies do not make you right. All the things you have mentioned have nothing to do with a future WE or EC codex. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. EC are not popular as a legion, currently. WE are a dead legion, I mean I guess they could reform under Angron for a new bloodparty, but we saw what happened the last time Angron was in realspace. Now, if you are talking about a KDK or SDK codex that may drop I would be inclined to say maybe. As it stands players have been wish listing for years about a new KDK codex and a EC codex. Heck, I remember at the start of 8th that Fulgrim was coming for sure and we would have a EC codex. How did that work out? I mean look at how long it took to get a 9th codex for CM and TK. Two factions that badly need/ed one. And you are expecting a WE codex by the end of the year? And we are in half way to October?

I would love to be wrong about all of this. I love chaos marines. My first boys and my favorite boys. Any buffs/releases would be most welcome. Heck, id do a rain dance in the nude if I thought it would help getting a KDK or EC codex. All I am saying (perhaps in a more dismissive tone that I would liked) is that we have wanted these things for 5+ years and we had rumors then to. Ill entertain the idea of maybe next summer for one or both once all the codex's are released. More than likely will be released as a campaign book. Well see. Hope I am wrong.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Table wrote:
[How can the WE have a codex when they are not a legion?

This bit was funny. Nice joke

WE are a dead legion, I mean I guess they could reform under Angron for a new bloodparty, but we saw what happened the last time Angron was in realspace.

I mean, the First War for Armageddon was kind of a big deal. In M.38, the Dominion of Fire was 200 years of Angron and the World Eaters rampaging through the Imperium, it took 4 Chapters, 2 Titan Legions and 30 Guard Regiments to stop it and the Imperium has taken almost 3k years to recover 90% of the territory they lost during the Dominion.
Also, you do know that all Chaos Space Marine forces operate as Warbands right? Like all of them. There isn't a single fully united Traitor Legion, not even the Black Legion.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Well the rumour guy who talked about World Eaters was just proven completely right, again, with the new Upgraded Pathfinders vs Sisters Initiative Kill-Team box.

So... maybe don't doubt him?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/16 15:33:56


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well the rumour guy who talked about World Eaters was just proven completely right, again, with the new Upgraded Pathfinders vs Sisters Initiative Kill-Team box.

So... maybe don't doubt him?



From the list of stuff coming for chaos next year I think a lot of problems might be fixed via new sculpts and units. Having all the mortals in there is an interesting take but I'm all for more options!
   
Made in au
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Australia

EC not popular? WE not a legion? KDK or SDK more likely?

That post is going to age well.

In any case, with the rumours looking more and more likely to be completely accurate, I am very excited for new Chosen & Possessed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/16 20:59:13


Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dudeface wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well the rumour guy who talked about World Eaters was just proven completely right, again, with the new Upgraded Pathfinders vs Sisters Initiative Kill-Team box.

So... maybe don't doubt him?



From the list of stuff coming for chaos next year I think a lot of problems might be fixed via new sculpts and units. Having all the mortals in there is an interesting take but I'm all for more options!


Yeah, I'm hoping that with new models comes new options for those models and new life breathed into the army as a whole. My concern with more of the mortals means the codex will feel less and less like 'Chaos Space Marines' and more like 'Renegades and Heretics', but we'll see how they handle it. My fear is that we'll see armies that have almost no Chaos Space Marine units at all. It'll be dino-bots supported by mortals, demons, and other stuff, and nary a power armored dude to be seen. Wouldn't that be hilarious?

On the note of 3++ saves, you can math it all you want, but the fact of the matter is that 3++ saves are NOT fun to play against. Results become far too swing-y, even with 4++ saves, and even low-toughness models like Harlequins can require far too much firepower to remove. I could go on and on, but I'm just not a fan of the current AP system of the game and the rise of invulns and mortal wounds. It's clearly gotten to a point where GW have had to pull back on invul saves for a variety of forces, like Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle, because of how -good- they can be against certain armies.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 AnomanderRake wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

You do realize that a lot of CSM players don't use Hellbrutes because they're mutated, right? They want the HH Legions represented with actual HH units, not something that resembles them with tentacles growing out of it. Those jetbikes you just described sound suspiciously like Plague Drones. If you like daemon engines, you should be able to play daemon engines, and if you like Legion vehicles, you should be able to play Legion vehicles. I don't see any reason to combine the two.


the horus heresy was ten thousand years ago. expecting chaos not to have changed in ten thousand years is absurd.


And yet the loyalists still have their Cataphractii/Tartaros and we don't. Riddle me that.


Because CSM were created to be evil 2nd Ed space marines but then GW changed their minds and didn’t update CSM along with loyalists even when it made total sense.

Abbadon is in a 40K version of terminator armour isn’t he? He should be in Cataphractii/Tartaros
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 AnomanderRake wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

You do realize that a lot of CSM players don't use Hellbrutes because they're mutated, right? They want the HH Legions represented with actual HH units, not something that resembles them with tentacles growing out of it. Those jetbikes you just described sound suspiciously like Plague Drones. If you like daemon engines, you should be able to play daemon engines, and if you like Legion vehicles, you should be able to play Legion vehicles. I don't see any reason to combine the two.


the horus heresy was ten thousand years ago. expecting chaos not to have changed in ten thousand years is absurd.


And yet the loyalists still have their Cataphractii/Tartaros and we don't. Riddle me that.


take a good look at 1k son and death guard terminators, notice something? GW made the decision to do with them exactly what I've been saying they should do. use old HH models as the basis for something new for chaos.


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






The best solution to making chaos great again would be to bring back Andy Chambers to the design team.

I have a blog on the Warhammer Tournaments website:

There Will Always be Chainswords

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 PaddyMick wrote:
The best solution to making chaos great again would be to bring back Andy Chambers to the design team.


Ultimately what chaos needs is a solid vision and a persuit of that vision. instead of the wishy washy mess we've got now where IMHO ti feels like GW doesn't want to commit to any vision. obviously some outliers might be in a weird place simply because they simply don't work with the vision, but it'd be better then the dull flavourless rules equivilant to gruel that CSMs currently are. and if what emerges doesn't work with emperor's children, given them their own codex!

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






It's the problem of Chaos being a chaotic faction that really should be able to be represented in many ways but GW just can't find a way to put all of these ways into the same book and make them worth it. Cultist hordes led by a small core of CSM, heavy-hitting Daemon Forge packs, small elite teams of Astartes. All are a thing but none are.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Gert wrote:
It's the problem of Chaos being a chaotic faction that really should be able to be represented in many ways but GW just can't find a way to put all of these ways into the same book and make them worth it. Cultist hordes led by a small core of CSM, heavy-hitting Daemon Forge packs, small elite teams of Astartes. All are a thing but none are.



really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:
It's the problem of Chaos being a chaotic faction that really should be able to be represented in many ways but GW just can't find a way to put all of these ways into the same book and make them worth it. Cultist hordes led by a small core of CSM, heavy-hitting Daemon Forge packs, small elite teams of Astartes. All are a thing but none are.


This I agree with. We've seen how GW can do really great Battletomes and Codexes with multiple army builds (one of my favorite being Gloomspite Gitz for the sheer range of ways you can build those armies), and yet Chaos Space Marines struggles to find an identity.

You've still got ancient space marine tanks with spikey bits latched on rolling up alongside daemon engines fresh from the forge, but they need completely different support elements to do well and tend to overlap roles. You've got cultists that have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed again because they keep outshining what should be the stars of the codex: the actual Chaos Marines. We've got so many options for Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords, but there's still only one or two loadouts of each that are good, and they bring no exciting rules to the table to support their army other than the typical re-roll 1's to hit.

And the saddest part is that this is the way it's been for a decade.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

BrianDavion wrote:
really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs
I hate the idea that "MOAR BOOKZ!" is the answer, but I don't have any better solution than a suite of Chaos-related supplements.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs
I hate the idea that "MOAR BOOKZ!" is the answer, but I don't have any better solution than a suite of Chaos-related supplements.


One part is that other factions also have a lot of books. Our ugly stepbrother the Space Marines have tons of books and as a result, tons of options, both for named and generic characters, fleshed out Chapter rules, and a butt-load of stratagems. Where Space Marines have gotten Primaris, Chaos Marines have gone with other stuff, like cultists and dinobots, but without the same breadth of Legion rules and with less synergy of options.

The other part is that Chaos Marines are really varied. If the rumors are true and we're getting expanded Cultist options, then that helps plug a little bit of that gap, but it also tugs us further away from the typical Legions that people might want to play, and still leaves a lot of other gaps in the rules and model range that need to be closed off. If you want to go with Daemon Engines, you're in a pretty decent place, with the Master of Possession, Warpsmith, and the Lord Discordant, but if you want to go with the classic Chaos Marine Legions, there's very little cohesiveness between the vehicles and marines.

We can certainly go the way of 'less bookz' but GW have shown no interest in going that direction, and it would mean stripping away a lot of options that other factions have gotten for the sake of simplicity.

Now that I say that, watch the Chaos Marine book be the first in GW's attempt to 'strip down' 9th edition back and be the first, and worst, of a line of downgrades.
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Power level aside the fact so many of their entries/options are so regimented and limited is really odd when it's the wild west in hell whenever we see what eye space is like.

If they don't do Ninth's three books of distinction approach a build your own identity book could work.

Use the HH rites of war as an inspiration for how small adjustments can make meaningful distinctions.

Have a range of possibilities from the more Legion strength entities like BL or WB all the way down to the Cult of Personality gangs with a more Deathwatch style mixed units to capture the random warband vibe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/17 00:01:38


 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs
I hate the idea that "MOAR BOOKZ!" is the answer, but I don't have any better solution than a suite of Chaos-related supplements.


Yeah... I still remember needing codex 2.0, vigilus ablaze, Faith and Fury, and whatever else PA book just to play one CSM army... and it wasn't even that great of list either... zzzzz.....
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Eldenfirefly wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs
I hate the idea that "MOAR BOOKZ!" is the answer, but I don't have any better solution than a suite of Chaos-related supplements.


Yeah... I still remember needing codex 2.0, vigilus ablaze, Faith and Fury, and whatever else PA book just to play one CSM army... and it wasn't even that great of list either... zzzzz.....



thats because all the books did was give additional strats etc. and that alone isn't eneugh to diffrentiate an army

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





At this point, I would stick to my Tsons and DG for a more competitive match play game.

Want me to bring out my CSM, we can have a narrative game where I bring 5000 points of CSM to your 2000 points and your objective is to make that glorious last stand. Heroes dig that sort of stuff anyway, and Chaos never fights fair.

Let me charge forward with Rhinos filled with Berzerkers, Abby dropping with obliterators from deep strike, Warp Talons and Chaos Bikes zooming up the sides, An armor column of Predator tanks led by a LR with teminators in it advancing up from the left flank, A lord of Skulls with Venom crawlers led by a Lord of Discordant moving up the right flank. Then I can show you the true glory of a proper CSM assault !!!

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/09/17 01:47:09


 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Marshal Loss wrote:EC not popular? WE not a legion? KDK or SDK more likely?

That post is going to age well.

In any case, with the rumours looking more and more likely to be completely accurate, I am very excited for new Chosen & Possessed.

Same. Especially Chosen. I really want to see how they handle their rules, but I'm worried the models themselves will scream "YUP, WE'RE BLACK LEGION". Hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs
I hate the idea that "MOAR BOOKZ!" is the answer, but I don't have any better solution than a suite of Chaos-related supplements.

Yeah, I don't want to have to use multiple books, but I don't know how they'll fit everything in one. I think I like the idea of a Traitor Legions supplement the most. One book for all of the Legions.

BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs
I hate the idea that "MOAR BOOKZ!" is the answer, but I don't have any better solution than a suite of Chaos-related supplements.


Yeah... I still remember needing codex 2.0, vigilus ablaze, Faith and Fury, and whatever else PA book just to play one CSM army... and it wasn't even that great of list either... zzzzz.....



thats because all the books did was give additional strats etc. and that alone isn't eneugh to diffrentiate an army

Other than those things and Legion traits, what else is there to differentiate the Legions, considering they'll all be pulling from the same pool of units? Assuming every Legion gets a supplement, how would you differentiate say, Night Lords and Word Bearers, beyond those things? Give each Legion something the others don't get, like 3.5?
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Actually, the recent Book of Fire consolidated all of the faith and fury and PA CSM rules into one book. So we can play with just two books now. The Book of Fire and our 8th ed codex 2.0.

Quality of life improvements! lol
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Eldenfirefly wrote:
Actually, the recent Book of Fire consolidated all of the faith and fury and PA CSM rules into one book. So we can play with just two books now. The Book of Fire and our 8th ed codex 2.0.

Quality of life improvements! lol


True, though it's still rough that in order to put away the two books that you got, you have to buy a third book... So the issue of money spent is still a thing.

But yeah, I'm looking forward to new Chosen and Possessed. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chosen are kitted out to be a Kill Team-style box, like we saw for Krieg and now we are seeing for the Sisters Novitiates. Plenty of characterful options for Kill Team, but also a more 'standard' loadout for regular 40k.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

mrFickle wrote:


Abbadon is in a 40K version of terminator armour isn’t he? He should be in Cataphractii/Tartaros


Why? Is he not allowed to change costumes in 10k years?
   
 
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