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Here's the situation: my nephew and I played a 1000 pt game of 40K last night, his third game with 5th edition, my second. Difference is I've been playing 40K since 2nd edition and wargaming in general for many years (I'm 43, he's 14). My Necron vs his Khorne-heavy CSM.

Last time we played he brought a good army that included a squad of Havocs and an Obliterator and I expectd him to bring a similar force so I thought I'd give him something to shoot at...a Monolith. I also brought a Lord with Rez Orb, 2 squads of 13 Warriors and 3 Destroyers. Not a bad or unbalanced list, I thought.

Until I saw what he put on the table. No Havocs, no Obliterators, no missile launchers, no lascannons, no meltaguns...not a single thing that could even get a glancing hit on the Monolith. When I told him this he balked but played on, because I said "It's just one model and it can't even hold the objectives I need to win." (We were playing Capture and Control.)

At the end of turn 5 we called the game because I had killed every model in his army except his Lord and one Possessed CSM. I admit, I used the Monolith every turn, teleporting units out of HTH, firing its Flux Arc when I could and dropping the Particle Whip on his Lord a couple of times. When he sqwaked that it was cheese I told him about the armies I've seen that have 3 Monoliths. But the thing did dominate the game, and to a degree I feel bad about that. I didn't include it with that in mind, I honestly thought he'd have stuff in his army that could hurt it. But I'm the type of gamer who doesn't throw games or take it easy once you have a grasp on the rules, so I don't know if I should feel bad, but I do.

This happen to anyone else?

You should not feel bad because your opponent, regardless of your relative age or experience, brought a list with a glaring weakness and you happened to exploit it.

Had you made your list after seeing his weakness, then yes, shame on you. Had you acted like a dick about it, then sure, shame on you.

But beating someone when your list coincidentally contains something that their list can't handle - no, not your fault.

I hope you took the time to discuss his army design after the game.

yeah,
I wouldn't feel too bad. we all get taught leasons from time to time, and your nephew got schooled!
He now knows the value of some anti-tank and that filling up on CC nasties doesn't equal win!

Although saying that, before the game I would have dropped the monolith?

Mismatched games are still fun sometimes, even if you get hammered, you see how your list failed...

And for your nephew there's always next time!

PaniC...

Chalk it up to a learning experience. I think it was good of him to try to carry on.

I have recently had a problem with that too. I always play very comepetative and bring to the table armies that are built for effeciency in battle. Some players don't do that and that is fine. Some gamers like all the fluff and just like playing for fun. Their are also some gamers who never have a clue about what they are doing or what is effective and they just are bound to lose. In your case I think that your experiance comes into play. Your nephew just doesn't know what he is doing and you have lots of experiance hence the way you crushed him. Don't worry about him hope fully he will learn from the experiance and the next game make the adjustments. The key to any good game that will keep people playing with you is to just play the friendlist game you can. Unless it is a tournament setting don't get super pushy about the rules or be an cocky about winning. Just have fun. But when it comes down to tournament the goal is too crush your opponent and your should never feel bad about crushing someone in a tournment.

Dont feel bad, you explained his fopa(sp?) and he balked at you. We all need to have our arses handed to us occastionally keeps us humble.

Faux pas.

With such a wide discrepancy of age and experience the veteran player has to be a bit sensible about how hard a beating he lays down. Young people can be very sensitive about such a crushing defeat and it's important to cushion the blow and make it a learning experience.

After all 40K is a game and both players are meant to enjoy it whatever the result.

Kilkrazy wrote:Faux pas.

With such a wide discrepancy of age and experience the veteran player has to be a bit sensible about how hard a beating he lays down. Young people can be very sensitive about such a crushing defeat and it's important to cushion the blow and make it a learning experience.

After all 40K is a game and both players are meant to enjoy it whatever the result.

Perhaps they should sit down and design a listtogether. And to make it fair, they can go through his own Necron list and discuss why certain things are chosen too.

Kilkrazy wrote:Faux pas.
New Players can be very sensitive about such a crushing defeat and it's important to cushion the blow and make it a learning experience.

Fixed. Its not just the youngsters who get miffed at a loss... truth be told, its not even just the new players- but vets who get too miffed aren't going to learn any better if the lesson is cushioned or not anyway.


To the OP:

Is a 1 monolith list cheesey? Not particularly... is the monolith currently a little too good? Yeah, probably. Instead of playing on, I would have had your nephew rewrite a balanced list- after (to show him why) you stuck every unit of his against the monolith and played some theory-hammer.. i.e. take that unit and take out my monolith- if you can.

And when you pointed out the monolith can't capture, you neglected to figure in the fact that it can contest.. and in a two objective game you could have parked the monolith on his objective, then used the rest of your army to defend your own... let alone the beat down the monolith itself can dish out in Kill Points.

And to answer your question, I often feel bad at a glaring one-sided win that way, whether its holes in a list or just lopsided dice rolling luck. If my opponent isn't having fun in a game (as long as they're sportsman enough to enjoy a game they don't dominate) then I feel bad. I'd rather lose a tight one where both sides enjoy it and play "Remember when....", followed by a round of "Oh yeah, if my....", than win a landslide the other guy would just as soon forget.

I don't win often, but when I do happen to get lucky and dominate the other guy by turn 4 or 5, I kind of feel bad. I want to play a full game that's fun for both of us. I'm perfectly happy getting a draw in a fun and hard fought game.

there was one game I played a while back, my tomb kings vs older high elves (not the current edition). The guy had a bunch of units and all of his characters were out on their own. I went first, I used all my magic mostly just to move around some units, then I popped my casket of souls and rolled a little high. Instead of just using a dispell scroll he tried to roll for it and lost. Casket killed all of his characters and a good chunk from each unit, all except for some horses that were behind some trees. The game was pretty much over right there before he even got to move, but he wanted to play it out. I even offered to just start over, but he didn't want to. That was one game where I felt bad after, but ever since his high elves and my tomb kings became mortal enemies, he eventually got his revenge

Well, just let him learn from it. A monolith is not unbeatable, even with a khornate army.

In my local gaming club, there are a lot of those pesky kids that load up on what is for their experience and age a cheesy list and beat on each other.
Then they come to us, the somewhat more experienced players (although 2,5 years in my case aint all that much) and challenge away, feeling overconfident.
I just take my standard funlist (everyone knows it, hell, around the club they bear the nicname of the disco marines, dont ask me why), and without much effort, table them in two or three turns.
Keeps em from boasting their pubescent little zitty heads off, it's good for them .

There is no reason to feel bad if you talk to your young Padawan about why he lost, and what he might like to try next time to counter the new thing.

Then, in the next game, drop it into your list, and show him that with the right tools, nothing in the game is indestructible.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Faux pas.

With such a wide discrepancy of age and experience the veteran player has to be a bit sensible about how hard a beating he lays down. Young people can be very sensitive about such a crushing defeat and it's important to cushion the blow and make it a learning experience.

After all 40K is a game and both players are meant to enjoy it whatever the result.

Perhaps they should sit down and design a listtogether. And to make it fair, they can go through his own Necron list and discuss why certain things are chosen too.

Yes, that's a good approach.

Well, I don't think this will turn him off the hobby; later on that evening he played his older brother, as a matter of fact. What they play isn't 40K as much as it is "argue over everything and occasionally move a model and roll some dice", though, so I don't know...

Part of this was also I didn't realize how devastating the Monolith can be against the right (wrong?) army, so it was a learning experience for me, too. I'm still feeling out the army and figuring out how it works and what works with my style of play. The next list I bring will feature some stuff that I haven't tried yet, like Immortals, Wraiths and Pariahs, so we'll see how it does.

Like everyone else, I prefer a close, well-played game to a stompfest. That doesn't mean that I'm going to go easy on you, but in all the games I play I say the same thing: I want my opponent to do really well and then lose. The feeling bad is starting to wear off, and I'm sure I'll have my shiny metal butt handed to me enough in the future to balance out the cosmic scale for this one.

My father taught me how to play Gin and Rummy at age 9. Not once did he ever let me win.
Know what? I learned that you don't always get to win and that winning isn't everything.

When my own some began to get interested in Pokemon at age 10, I took it up with him. I wanted to be sure he had a GOOD gaming influence. We moved on to M:TG and (for a brief time) Mordheim. I never let him win. I didn't go out of my way ti build "uber" decks/warbands or anything, but I didn't build push-overs easily. I always built well balanced and (I thought) tough decks and forces. He rarely ever won. When he did, though, he got psyched... he KNEW that he won and that I didn't just let him.
Eventually, he lost the gaming bug (to my chagrin).
He's almost 21, now. We regularly talk about those days and how awesome to him it was when he won, because he knew I wasn't just going to roll over for him.

My youngest is 10 and learning to game. I won't take it easy on her, either.

Eric

Whenever I am helping newer people out or getting others to join the hobby I will make some easy lists that don't have any overpowered units or tactics. I don't go out of my way to make sure they do win, but I make it significantly easier to do so. After the first few games however I will pull out the big guns and will not hold back. If it is one of my friends that constantly loses then I would make sure that they know how their army is supposed to work and how to field them. I won't make their lists for them, but I will teach them tactics and what is good vs. what.

One of the best things you can do is introduce someone to 40k forums such as this one as it gives them opportunities to list their armies for others to review and research tactics on their own time.

MagickalMemories wrote:
When my own some began to get interested in Pokemon at age 10, I took it up with him. I wanted to be sure he had a GOOD gaming influence. We moved on to M:TG and (for a brief time) Mordheim. I never let him win. I didn't go out of my way ti build "uber" decks/warbands or anything, but I didn't build push-overs easily. I always built well balanced and (I thought) tough decks and forces. He rarely ever won. When he did, though, he got psyched... he KNEW that he won and that I didn't just let him.

My youngest is 10 and learning to game. I won't take it easy on her, either.

Sounds like your kids are the sort of snot nosed brats us grizzled grognards would love to face at the FLGS.

MagickalMemories wrote:My father taught me how to play Gin and Rummy at age 9. Not once did he ever let me win.
Know what? I learned that you don't always get to win and that winning isn't everything.

When my own some began to get interested in Pokemon at age 10, I took it up with him. I wanted to be sure he had a GOOD gaming influence. We moved on to M:TG and (for a brief time) Mordheim. I never let him win. I didn't go out of my way ti build "uber" decks/warbands or anything, but I didn't build push-overs easily. I always built well balanced and (I thought) tough decks and forces. He rarely ever won. When he did, though, he got psyched... he KNEW that he won and that I didn't just let him.
Eventually, he lost the gaming bug (to my chagrin).
He's almost 21, now. We regularly talk about those days and how awesome to him it was when he won, because he knew I wasn't just going to roll over for him.

My youngest is 10 and learning to game. I won't take it easy on her, either.

Eric

The best way to motivate people is to give them goals which are challenging but not impossible. Judging that level of challenge is the difficult thing.

So long as you're not like the gamer out of the Onion movie, if you've seen that...

In general I don't take fun in tabling someone, I pefer the close fought game and the pain as the dice deny you that lucky shot.

Generally If it turns into a one sided game, afterwards if it's just bad luck I'll comiserate them, if it's tactics, I'll point something out.

im 14 and i used to get beaten at my flgws all the time and it taught me how to play more then a rule book ever could, i lost so much you learn and now i usualy win or draw against the more expierence people at my flgws, loosing makes you better,winning makes you cocky.

Sitting down with him, reviewing the game, his army's weaknesses, and then working with him to tune it would be a nice learning experience for him. Based on your description of his army, he's have trouble with any mech opponent, which doesn't bode well for his army.

You played a game against a child. And you beat his brains out. Bravo! It's the only way he'll learn.

Allow him to win and he'll be bratish, overconfident and a not well rounded grown up in years to come.

Is it really that important to win if your opponent is learning the game?

G

I've been playing 40k since 3rd ed. Some of my best learning experiences were when I got creamed. I still learn from a good beating. In my opinion it is the best way to learn, makes sure you'll remember it next time. I'm just one of those people that learns better the hard way. So I say don't feel bad for him.

The problem here is the the next list he builds to fight you will overcompensate for the last game, and he'll bring oodles of stuff to kill the Monolith and not enough of everything else.

BYE

In a contrary view, unless there is some good advice here you may lose a gaming partner. He clearly needs list building help. If he's not making good lists a few blowouts will see him ebaying that chaos list.

Hard play combined with list building tutorial and priority tutorials are the most helpful. At least thats what I say every time Inquisitor Bob smacks me about the head and face.

When I am palying inexperienced players (either to the game or the mechanics of 5th) I often take sub par lists so that I can PLAY competitivly and do my best to win. I let the people know that this is not thebest list, but when they win, they know I didn't just roll over and say "good little gamer." I also let them knwo wheter I think I had a sub par, average or competitive list after the game, and go over how the units interacted with each other and some of the more competitive things that could have been in the list and what kind of options they should consider when building thier lists and when playing.

For 5th ed. the biggest hurdle I have come accross is experienced gamers who get VERY upset that the game doesn't work the way it used to and won't change their 4th ed lists no matter how ineffective it is in 5th edition. You have to use the same principles with them. If I see that one of them is bringing the same 4th ed list and I know that bringin out my 5th ed competitive list is only going to end up in 2 hours of "How stupid 5th edition is" I will bring out a less competitive list to ensure that we both have fun. Same principels apply. After the game we talk about how 5th has changed things and I often work in sublte hints at the configurations that will work better in 5th, and what kind of more competitive things could have happened.

The other kind of gamer who is willign to look at and play 5th edition, I know they WANT me to bring it on, so I use my best lists and trounce them until they start adapting. These players want to learn and don't want to be babied. They know that when they apply enough practice and discussion they will be the ones showing me new tricks in a little while.

I learned playing WFB with my dad and he never let me win. But he always was willign to talk about what I could have done to do better, and what choices I made were good ones vs bad ones. As long as there is communication I think it's all good.

Meph

I've had similar experiences with my own son and I don't hold back on him. He relishes playing when he wins and feels distraught and hopeless when he's losing, but that's what gaming is all about.

Mephistoles1 reminded me of something that my kung fu teacher told me once. When fighting someone of less experience or skill, you should use the opportunity to test yourself. Don't fight at their level, but handicap yourself in some way to force you to develop alternative techniques. This way it does give your opponent an advantage (even if it is a subtle advantage) as well as serving to challenge yourself.

EDIT: For the nit-picky, this was in reference to training, sparring, and sport fighting - not streetfighting, which is life or death.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The problem here is the the next list he builds to fight you will overcompensate for the last game, and he'll bring oodles of stuff to kill the Monolith and not enough of everything else.

BYE

yeah,
indeed,
But the options for talthars next game are kinda cool, either to bring a monolith, or punk him with a troops heavy army!!!
teach him a second leason, that how going into a game blind can be like a game of poker.... bluffs and hard facts.

Also talthar, I hope he thrashs you next time! just to show you he isn't weak...

Panic...