Is DakkaDakka going down hill?

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**Nurglitch**

Redbeard:

Perhaps the problem is the perception that the 'metagame' has been beaten to death. Maybe posting in Tactics and Army Lists would be more interesting if people stopped assuming that there was an easy button and started discussing tactics for beating those supposed 'easy buttons'.

**skrulnik**

Cryonicleech wrote:As I was pondering Dakka's state of affairs, I'd like to call to attention a particularly troubling matter.

If there's one thing I really hate to see, it's all these ridiculous claims of "poor moderation" Feth! Frazz, Kilkrazy, Alpharius, and all those other mods are some of the best damn mods out there. On sites like 40k Online, whenever a mod posted I'd literally have to edit what I personally thought on a matter because it'd be "offensive" or it'd break a rule. Hell, Frazz is cool enough to descend into the madness of the OT forum and actually let you argue with him! Where else could you do that?

I mean seriously, poor moderation? Some posters are really ungrateful.

+1

I lurk on pft.com for my NFL rumors. Check the comments that are allowed there once.
At least on Dakka, discontent with GW can be vented without being jumped by the mods.

Been watching these threads for awhile, and most of the loudest dissenters are recipients of the MOD attention because they can't self moderate.
Yes there is a lot of crap posts, thats cuz there are a ton more members actively posting, and not all are out of school yet.
If a topic doesn't interest you, than just don't read it.

As for the tactics issue. Write articles. Get your ideas out there. If someone futzes with it, alert the article Mods. simple as simple.

**H.B.M.C.**

Deadshane made the very valid point several hundred pages back that if a mod catches a small bad thing in a large good post, the whole post gets wiped. This happens time and time again, showing a distinct lack of moderation in the moderating.

So I'd love to see some moderation when it comes to moderating.

**Kilkrazy**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Deadshane made the very valid point several hundred pages back that if a mod catches a small bad thing in a large good post, the whole post gets wiped. This happens time and time again, showing a distinct lack of moderation in the moderating.

That isn't normally the case.

Threads are rarely locked until they spiral out of control, unless they are egregious from the outset.

That's why there are other people complaining that the moderators should rule with a firmer smack of control.

**H.B.M.C.**

I coined the phrase 'Mod-Jerk Reaction' to characterise the quick (and seemingly arbitrary) way a number of threads get closed, and specifically by you, KK.

It only gets worse when you have a thread that has been the cause of a big argument, but that argument was a few pages back, and the thread has since jumped back on track and on topic, and yet the thread gets locked anyway on page 9 when the "impolite" argument was back on page 6 or 7. That's inane and shows any real lack of care of forethought.

As aside, I've been suspended for using the word 'inane' - how's that for "moderating"? And just recently I had a mod tell me that he only deleted my post, and not the highly inflammatory curse-filled original post because he "wasn't paying attention". So, I go back to my original point - moderation in moderating. It's what's needed more than anything.

Rule #1 should be 'Don't be an idiot'. If people weren't idiots, there'd be no reason not to be polite.

**grizgrin**

Honestly, HBMC, if they are locking pages well after the fact, and missing posts with obvious rules violations adjacent to posts they are wiping out, then it sounds like they need additional eyes on. More mods, with each one doing less to a higher quality.

But it wouldn't work that way in practice, would it?

**Frazzled**

carmachu wrote:
Manchu wrote:Busted.

In any case, I wonder if anything will actually come of these threads. We're told that they're generating buzz among the powers that be but sometimes I think that's just to keep us content.

That be true if it were a different type of site. But the owner(s) are gamers too, so they arent going to discuss things just to keep us happy. Thats a short term bump and a long term loss.

Some of the chaff has to go around here. I remember the old old days and things were rough and tumble. I know a few said they wouldnt want steleks or the equvilant, but I recall a time before him and sometimes its people like him thats needed. I dont always agree with what he says, and he might say it rudely at times, but thats infiniately more preferable then some of the things and dicussion we have now. Because whether you like him or not(or folks like it) or whether agree with him or not, more times then not what comes out in the end is useful moreso then not.

I disagree. I don't think Stelek was useful at all. He drove many many posters off the board.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Deadshane made the very valid point several hundred pages back that if a mod catches a small bad thing in a large good post, the whole post gets wiped. This happens time and time again, showing a distinct lack of moderation in the moderating.

So I'd love to see some moderation when it comes to moderating.

Its a helpful way to keep from banning people who have consisting posted such things. Cough***many othe posters on this thread ***cough.

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

Don't always think the mods get it right tbh
A problem that I see is the lack of consistency.
They must all be soccer referees

But a lot taking a view from the other side, the problems arise from us the users.
Mods aren't machines. If I may make an anaology of the speed cameras in the UK, motorists complain about them and getting caught.

Don't exceed the speed limit. No tickets!

Again people complaing about clamping down on offensive material.
Not referring to the can of worms of political correctness, but why do people feel that there is some right or need to be offensive?

We ought to be moderating ourselves first as a matter of course and out of courtesy to other users.

**Deadshane1**

Scott-S6 wrote:
Deadshane1 wrote:Unfortunatly, I think dakka now caters to these people that refuse to improve in their game. The list/tactics section of dakka (which used to be my favorite long long ago) would be a much more serious place with personalities like Stelek, Mauleed, Gwar, and many others who have offended people over the years given free reign to "lay it down" unfortunatly, people get frustrated. Now we've got an overmoderated board where saying "that idea is friggin stupid" will get you a warning. Now read that quotation....read it...is it REALLY that bad? You'll get a warning for it.

Considering you started a thread on here not too long ago bitching at Stelek and others for saying mean things about people's armies I find this hilarious. Still, not the first example of blatant hypocrisy from you.

Deadshane1 wrote:I was reading one attendee's list breakdown of opponents this morning on a site, and the peanut gallery that responded to the post had nothing to say about the opponents but things like...."Was he drunk when he made that list?" "Those armies are full of fail" "f&*kinc stupid" ect, you get the idea. How nice.

...and dont even get me started on all the greif leveled at GW for these missions that "Werent thought out in the least.", "totally unfair", or "the most slowed missions I've ever seen, do they even play this game?" (key word there is GAME).

At the risk of sounding like some Casual Gaming Mafioso, these guys have REALLY lost sight of what this game is all about. I'm actually one of the more competetive gamers out there mentally, and even I find myself wincing at these comments I see everywhere. My first reaction is to feel like I want to pit my toughest list on the board and tell these guys to "nut up or shut up", then after a little thought I just shake my head at these "experts".

People SERIOUSLY need to calm down. If someone feilds 10 firedragons in a waveserpent at Ard Boys, that doesnt make him a slow, it simply means that he wanted to use 10 firedragons. Nothing more, nothing less. I suspect that whoever wrote the 3rd mission for Ard Boys knows "just a little" about 40k. He probably actually plays it too. However, some of the people out there that really hate the missions this year would probably tell you otherwise in their infinate wisdom.

Hey guys...GAME...you see, thats the word. Noones life is dependant on the rules for mission three. No families are going to go hungry because so-and-so thinks vanguard vets are the coolest thing ever so "why not bring 3 full squads?" Can we calm down and let people have FUN with the GAME? PLEASE?

Just because I find someone to be an arrogant jerk doesnt mean that he doesnt know the game. Thats not hypocrisy.

Also, if you read that post in it's entirety, if I remember correctly, the main point I was trying to make was that people were complaining about a "Free Tournament" with prize support.

...but I see what you're doing...going off topic and attempting to smear to start an arguement. My hypocrisy or lack thereof is not the subject here. Sorry, not gonna bite. Please drive thru.

**fullheadofhair**

Frazzled wrote:
Its a helpful way to keep from banning people who have consisting posted such things. Cough***many othe posters on this thread ***cough.

hypocrite much? 3 or possibly 4 suspensions - hello pot, let me intorduce you to kettle.

**Scott-S6**

Deadshane1 wrote:Just because I find someone to be an arrogant jerk doesnt mean that he doesnt know the game. Thats not hypocrisy.
Also, if you read that post in it's entirety, if I remember correctly, the main point I was trying to make was that people were complaining about a "Free Tournament" with prize support.
...but I see what you're doing...going off topic and attempting to smear to start an arguement. My hypocrisy or lack thereof is not the subject here. Sorry, not gonna bite. Please drive thru.

And yet again you fail to address the point entirely. Nothing in your post actually addressed what I pointed out.

You complain that someone says "Those armies are full of fail" - that's horrible and out of line.
Yet now you're saying that people should be allowed to say things like "that idea is friggin stupid"?

Why the sudden about face?

Deadshane1 wrote:Now we've got an overmoderated board where saying "that idea is friggin stupid" will get you a warning. Now read that quotation....read it...is it REALLY that bad? You'll get a warning for it.

Deadshane1 wrote:I was reading one attendee's list breakdown of opponents this morning on a site, and the peanut gallery that responded to the post had nothing to say about the opponents but things like...."Was he drunk when he made that list?" "Those armies are full of fail" "f&*kinc stupid" ect, you get the idea. How nice.

**Mr Mystery**

Having read this? Yes I'm afraid.

It's descending into a lot of cock-waving, mostly from people who always seem to feel 'they know better'.

How depressing. If you don't like how this site is Moderated, then go join a different one, surely?

**Dashofpepper**

Mr Mystery wrote:Having read this? Yes I'm afraid.

It's descending into a lot of cock-waving, mostly from people who always seem to feel 'they know better'.

How depressing. If you don't like how this site is Moderated, then go join a different one, surely?

Looking through your post history (Tomb Stalker Hoax, how to deal with RL bullies, why job hunting sucks, why drugs are produced.....) I see that you don't possess the shared experiences of those of us who try bringing useful content to Dakka. How the moderators moderate is a tangential point to Dakka's downward spiral, brought on by the segue into the fact that they moderate tone and behavior but not content.

The answer isn't the people who care about Dakka to leave Dakka - its for people like you to stop increasing the noise ratio...OR for moderators to moderate content, OR for additional moderators to be formed to start policing out the garbage posts so that relevant content can be read without an extensive search through posts like "Who's Primarch is the best in bed?" "Would Master Chief beat a Space Marine in a fight?" "Wakkawakka, lets fake a release rumor!"

**Frazzled**

fullheadofhair wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Its a helpful way to keep from banning people who have consisting posted such things. Cough***many othe posters on this thread ***cough.

hypocrite much? 3 or possibly 4 suspensions - hello pot, let me intorduce you to kettle.

Pah! It takes a Frazzled to suspend a Frazzled!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:
Mr Mystery wrote:Having read this? Yes I'm afraid.

It's descending into a lot of cock-waving, mostly from people who always seem to feel 'they know better'.

How depressing. If you don't like how this site is Moderated, then go join a different one, surely?

Looking through your post history (Tomb Stalker Hoax, how to deal with RL bullies, why job hunting sucks, why drugs are produced.....) I see that you don't possess the shared experiences of those of us who try bringing useful content to Dakka. How the moderators moderate is a tangential point to Dakka's downward spiral, brought on by the segue into the fact that they moderate tone and behavior but not content.

The answer isn't the people who care about Dakka to leave Dakka - its for people like you to stop increasing the noise ratio...OR for moderators to moderate content, OR for additional moderators to be formed to start policing out the garbage posts so that relevant content can be read without an extensive search through posts like "Who's Primarch is the best in bed?" "Would Master Chief beat a Space Marine in a fight?" "Wakkawakka, lets fake a release rumor!"

And thats why you'll not be a tac mod DoP.

**Mr Mystery**

And yet it seems the majority are quite happy with the Mods as they are.

But we must all bow down and kiss the butts of those who have thousands of posts, because you know, they have thousands of posts, no doubt each and everyone full of pearls of wisdom and nary an ounce of spam/silliness between?

**RiTides**

Ack, Dash- your post above is what I personally consider noise, too. This is not an "us" vs "them"... anyone who posts on Dakka is an integral part of the community.

The solution isn't to trash the opposition... but to post better quality stuff (perhaps in a more organized fashion as is being discussed, and I think the ideas have some merit). Tearing down people doesn't help build anything up, and certainly doesn't help the case of those pushing for more reform.

**Dashofpepper**

RiTides wrote:Ack, Dash- your post above is what I personally consider noise, too. This is not an "us" vs "them"... anyone who posts on Dakka is an integral part of the community.

The solution isn't to trash the opposition... but to post better quality stuff (perhaps in a more organized fashion as is being discussed, and I think the ideas have some merit). Tearing down people doesn't help build anything up, and certainly doesn't help the case of those pushing for more reform.

Yes, because "All you who don't like the status quo GTFO and leave" is building things up.

**Mr Mystery**

And now comes the flame baiting, how superior of you!

All I illustrated is that it's only those who somehow feel they are more important than another that are having a go at the Mod team. I suggested that perhaps other Websites might suit you better. But of course, you'd be a nobody on those sites, and you simply can't have that now can you? So instead you remain here, complaining and nurturing that you're a someone...

**Dashofpepper**

Mr Mystery wrote:And now comes the flame baiting, how superior of you!

All I illustrated is that it's only those who somehow feel they are more important than another that are having a go at the Mod team. I suggested that perhaps other Websites might suit you better. But of course, you'd be a nobody on those sites, and you simply can't have that now can you? So instead you remain here, complaining and nurturing that you're a someone...

Nice trolling. +1.

As has been illustrated for you to ignore (and now revisited for your pleasure), the few folks who are in disagreement over the state of moderation are a tangential discussion to the larger S:N ratio on Dakka, and what to do with it.

**Mr Mystery**

Yes, a discussion where your opinion is the only one that matters, and all voices of dissent are trolling yes?

**Dashofpepper**

Mr Mystery wrote:Yes, a discussion where your opinion is the only one that matters, and all voices of dissent are trolling yes?

Not at all. But showing up to a thread with "If you don't like it GTFO" *is* trolling, accusations of cock-waving add to the fuel, and easy dismissal of the work that so many are doing to try improving Dakka is tinder. That's why you get +1 for trolling. You brought nothing useful to the thread, you were inflammatory, and your sole purpose here (as expressed by your posting) is to be divisive.

+2 to your trolling.

**Mr Mystery**

Except that wasn't what I said, was it? But hey, let's get sensationalist, why the devil not. I mean, you are a somebody on here, your opinion matters. Me, I've barely got here, so what the hell would I know!

**Iron Angel**

No you... NOOOO YOOUUUU... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YOOOOUUUUUUUUUU is all i read here atm.

Sorry for silly post, but this seems to be way to filled with emotion to actually be helpfull for any cause.
And if your reading my post (yeah you) ^^ im really needing a little help with Eldar in the Army List thread

and i wouldnt mind some sound advice.

Cheers

**wyomingfox**

Dashofpepper wrote:
wyomingfox wrote:

Lists: Saddly, our heavy hitters (tourney winners) here on Dakka don't seam to contribute to this thread very often. I don't think allowing posters to be caustic will encourage veteran players to participate in this forum/quite the opposite really.

*WHY* don't the heavy hitters contribute in Army Lists? There was a time when 50% of the posts in Army lists were Ork lists, and the "last posted by" was Dashofpepper. I have....4,000 posts on Dakka? 2,000 of them at least were made in Army lists. This kind of bulls*it is why I don't post there anymore.

If I may quote from the thread you mentioned:

Grimgob wrote:Not so. Your advice tends to lean twards "orks get the charge they krump" you must not play alot of CSM.

Grimgob wrote:It must not be that bad of a list since your post was 1/35th the size of your usual prattle. now back to ur cheese,wine, and crappy metal/rock fussion music.

Grimgob wrote:but you come off as a know it all TFG.

Dashofpepper wrote:*shakes his head in disbelief*

OP, you're going to scoff at my suggestions by calling me names, make fun of my personal hobbies, and tell me that I'm TFG.

Pot, meet kettle. Your list is apparently absolutely phenomenal despite 100% of users thinking it is not, and you needn't post it because you're not open to comments. I would encourage you to revise how you interact with other people; you're being unconscionably rude.

So would it be safe to say that the main reason that you were put off to contributing to army lists was posters (like the one I quoted above) who were rude (flametory), obnoxious, and unappreciative of your advice? Actaully, you just stated exactly that, which was kinda my thinking. Allowing posters (veterans and initiates alike) to use or continue to use inflamatory language isn't going to make these forums a better environment -- especially when you pointed out that that same environment drove you out.

Again, I find nothing wrong with posters telling someone they are wrong, assuming that you back your statement up with facts or logic. Using flamatory language (like stupid, idiotic, TFG, troll, ect) only leads to a flame war. Furthermore, the Mods are not suppose to play favorites. So if they allowed the the veterans leeway to use flamatory language, then they are likely to let the intiates fireback.

**Dashofpepper**

Mr Mystery wrote:Except that wasn't what I said, was it? But hey, let's get sensationalist, why the devil not. I mean, you are a somebody on here, your opinion matters. Me, I've barely got here, so what the hell would I know!

Except that it *is* what you said. I'd definitely encourage you to return to off-topic now, or read this thread and contribute something besides accusations against its posters.

**Mr Mystery**

Mr Mystery wrote:Having read this? Yes I'm afraid.

It's descending into a lot of cock-waving, mostly from people who always seem to feel 'they know better'.

How depressing. If you don't like how this site is Moderated, then go join a different one, surely?

No, it really wasn't. Come along now, surely you're reading comprehension is up to the job here?

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

:Is DakkaDakka going down hill?
What do you think of the contents?

Just to remind ourselves.
thread title and OP.

iirc a while back there was some really constructive dialogue going on
or was that the other thread I get so easily confused these days.

Page 9 and indeed the thread has degenerated into the usual pattern of everyone shouting above each other in a grim battle to be heard above the noise.

Of course there is an element of seeing who can pee highest Mr M, but if you wade into the urinals with your "cock waving" then what do you expect?

This pattern on thread development is typical and not just on Dakka.
It is annoying when it happens in the Which primarchs' chickens lays the best eggs? poll thread.

If I understand the point of this thread correctly it is trying to address a more serious issue.
When you get into the more technical aspects of the hobby, this pattern of thread development is very detrimental.
It seriously affects the nature and quality of the site as a whole.

It is tedious to have to wade through pages of the personal sniping.
The mods are in a no win situation imho
If they stamp down they get accussed of censorship.
If they let things run they get blamed for not dealing with the rubbish.

Again, it is up to us to disagree constructively and not just fan the flames.

**Mr Mystery**

So surely the trick is to simply create topics you wish to discuss, and not enter ones which do not interest you?

For instance, I have always found online tactical discussion to be an exercise in futility, as rather than offer constructive comment and criticism on my chosen (and usually purchased) list, I am instead told such a list cannot win, here go and buy this lolzIrtounywinnah! etc. So guess what, I don't seek it online. I might read the odd topic which seems to correlate with a though I'm having, but I see the same thing. Don't take Unit Z, take Unit A and spam.

**wyomingfox**

Reecius wrote:I know in days past this occurred by having an environment where you knew you'd get flamed if you posted crap. This created an air of intimidation. I know people think that sounds bad, but, it forced people to fact check and THINK before posting. The reward was a wealth of great information. The downside: huge egos and a lot of vitriol.

I don't know, when I was ghosting the boards, it seamed like the "trolls" were immune to flamatory statements, infact, it seamed to feed them and make them stronger.

**Monster Rain**

Dashofpepper wrote:Looking through your post history (Tomb Stalker Hoax... blah blah blah)

Wasn't that decided to be not a hoax, and everyone that propagates this lie owes Mr. Mystery a huge apology?

wyomingfox wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:
wyomingfox wrote:

Lists: Saddly, our heavy hitters (tourney winners) here on Dakka don't seam to contribute to this thread very often. I don't think allowing posters to be caustic will encourage veteran players to participate in this forum/quite the opposite really.

*WHY* don't the heavy hitters contribute in Army Lists? There was a time when 50% of the posts in Army lists were Ork lists, and the "last posted by" was Dashofpepper. I have....4,000 posts on Dakka? 2,000 of them at least were made in Army lists. This kind of bulls*it is why I don't post there anymore.

If I may quote from the thread you mentioned:

Grimgob wrote:Not so. Your advice tends to lean twards "orks get the charge they krump" you must not play alot of CSM.

Grimgob wrote:It must not be that bad of a list since your post was 1/35th the size of your usual prattle. now back to ur cheese,wine, and crappy metal/rock fussion music.

Grimgob wrote:but you come off as a know it all TFG.

Dashofpepper wrote:*shakes his head in disbelief*

OP, you're going to scoff at my suggestions by calling me names, make fun of my personal hobbies, and tell me that I'm TFG.

Pot, meet kettle. Your list is apparently absolutely phenomenal despite 100% of users thinking it is not, and you needn't post it because you're not open to comments. I would encourage you to revise how you interact with other people; you're being unconscionably rude.

So would it be safe to say that the main reason that you were put off to contributing to army lists was posters (like the one I quoted above) who were rude (flametory), obnoxious, and unappreciative of your advice? Actaully, you just stated exactly that, which was kinda my thinking. Allowing posters (veterans and initiates alike) to use or continue to use inflamatory language isn't going to make these forums a better environment -- especially when you pointed out that that same environment drove you out.

Again, I find nothing wrong with posters telling someone they are wrong, assuming that you back your statement up with facts or logic. Using flamatory language (like stupid, idiotic, TFG, troll, ect) only leads to a flame war. Furthermore, the Mods are not suppose to play favorites. So if they allowed the the veterans leeway to use flamatory language, then they are likely to let the intiates fireback.

Since someone else brought it up...

I think if you read that entire thread, Dash doesn't come off as the "white hat" that he makes himself out to be.

Honestly Dash, if you really believe you weren't being a little bit rude in that thread I don't know what to say to you. You and Grimgob were both wrong for flaming, but that thread is a classic example of two people behaving badly.