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Why would you come to that conclusion?

because based on what has been said recently, SW has no counter for the warp users and 40k has no counter for the force, so everyone gets owned.

That's ignoring the down sides of using these powers. They require extensive training to control, capable people are rare, and then they require significant stamina, concentration and mastery level to use them to any useful extent in battle.

iproxtaco wrote:That's ignoring the down sides of using these powers. They require extensive training to control, capable people are rare, and then they require significant stamina, concentration and mastery level to use them to any useful extent in battle.

So the people saying that one Jedi can use the force to WTFPWN entire squads of Marines in seconds are being crazy? (Change the wording as you wish to apply to Librarians as well)

Ghazskull Thraka would 'ead butt dem fancy glowing sword swingers and knock dat force right outta'em!

Eh, they have orks in SW, too.

ChrisWWII wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That's ignoring the down sides of using these powers. They require extensive training to control, capable people are rare, and then they require significant stamina, concentration and mastery level to use them to any useful extent in battle.

So the people saying that one Jedi can use the force to WTFPWN entire squads of Marines in seconds are being crazy? (Change the wording as you wish to apply to Librarians as well)

Considering that most Jedi<Droideka/Destroyer Droids, yes.>

ChrisWWII wrote:
So the people saying that one Jedi can use the force to WTFPWN entire squads of Marines in seconds are being crazy?

Of course they are. Did you ever see a jedi doing that to a squad of anything?

Yoda Vs The Emporer (pre-heresy)? ^_~

Slushosaur wrote:Yoda Vs The Emporer (pre-heresy)? ^_~

Emperor wins.

Guardsman vs. Sith (with Jedi-help admittedly)

SWTOR Cinematic Trailer

Also this (though admittedly Obi-Wan isn't killed, he's technically beaten in the fight)

Obi-Wan vs. Jango Fett

ChrisWWII wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That's ignoring the down sides of using these powers. They require extensive training to control, capable people are rare, and then they require significant stamina, concentration and mastery level to use them to any useful extent in battle.

So the people saying that one Jedi can use the force to WTFPWN entire squads of Marines in seconds are being crazy? (Change the wording as you wish to apply to Librarians as well)

Pretty much. The opinion that 1 Jedi> 1 Marine but 1 Jedi< 1 Squad of Marines is probably the most accurate. However, Librarians have a greater amount of offensive powers, so would likely be superior to a few squads of Troopers depending on how powerful their blasters are.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

No, it's not. We know enough about Force users to know that they're not channeling power from an alternate dimension. They're harnessing a pervasive energy field created by living beings.

And what is the Warp? An alternate dimension where power is created by living beings?

Maybe the midichlorians enable a Jedi to draw from the warp. Who knows? It seems like it's fair to assume they are equivalent. Psychic Hoods can block out the Force, and things like ysalamiri can block out psychic powers.

You forgot about the Yuzhan Vong, who come from beyond the outer rim and are anathema to force users (extended universe).

We have to assume that Force Powers are = to Psykers in terms of overall power because we have similer feats accomplished by both sides.

Then we have to go to the quantity comparison.


40k wins. Psykers, although "rare", can be found just about everywhere. They are basically 1/1,000,000 to find, but, in a galaxy with uncounted Trillions of people, they arn't exactly hard to find in their hundreds.

as a result, Psykers are much more common then Jedi and so they have the advantage in numbers.

iproxtaco wrote:Pretty much. The opinion that 1 Jedi> 1 Marine but 1 Jedi< 1 Squad of Marines is probably the most accurate. However, Librarians have a greater amount of offensive powers, so would likely be superior to a few squads of Troopers depending on how powerful their blasters are.

A Librarian in the Dark Eldar codex ravaged the skies above Commorragh with a storm that was annihilating the Ravagers and other ships blocking the Forgehammer.

The average Jedi isn't crap to a Librarian.

Wasn't that Librarian an Ultramarine, though? Or was it from the Imperial Fists? I forget the particulars of that, but as I recall, there was a fethload of Plot Armor and Plot Devices employed on the SM side...

Psienesis wrote:Wasn't that Librarian an Ultramarine, though? Or was it from the Imperial Fists? I forget the particulars of that, but as I recall, there was a fethload of Plot Armor and Plot Devices employed on the SM side...

Plot armor? What are you talking about? The Space Marines got their asses kicked and probably would have all died if Vect hadn't allowed them to escape.

Plot Armor and Plot Devices allow you to do all sorts of things that you otherwise aren't/shouldn't... like cause a huge psychic storm over a who-knows-how-large an area when your name isn't Njarl Stormcaller.

I also seem to remember that, in the same story, the SM free their Strike Cruiser with some extremely well-placed missile launcher shots and are able, just barely, to escape by the skin of their teeth and shake their fists in the air and vow to seek vengeance and return to bring retribution and blah-blah-blah, yakkity shmakkity....

Plot armor. Plot devices.

coolyo294 wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Wasn't that Librarian an Ultramarine, though? Or was it from the Imperial Fists? I forget the particulars of that, but as I recall, there was a fethload of Plot Armor and Plot Devices employed on the SM side...

Plot armor? What are you talking about? The Space Marines got their asses kicked and probably would have all died if Vect hadn't allowed them to escape.

Asses kicked.

Funny.

The Marines crushed the Dark Eldar attempts at taking them. And beyond that, were massively outnumbered.

If we are talking Librarian powers from 2nd edition, all the Librarian needs is Vortex. The Psyker summons a freaking singularity that crushes all matter that it touches. It would destroy vehicles upon touching. Only can imagine what would happen if it was used inside a space ship in outer space.

Void__Dragon wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Wasn't that Librarian an Ultramarine, though? Or was it from the Imperial Fists? I forget the particulars of that, but as I recall, there was a fethload of Plot Armor and Plot Devices employed on the SM side...

Plot armor? What are you talking about? The Space Marines got their asses kicked and probably would have all died if Vect hadn't allowed them to escape.

Asses kicked.

Funny.

The Marines crushed the Dark Eldar attempts at taking them. And beyond that, were massively outnumbered.

One on one a Marine will crush a Dark Eldar, that's just how they roll. However that doesn't mean that Dark Eldar technology won't kill Marines and destroy their vessels.

Marine versus Jedi? Take away all their fancy equipment and let them settle it like men, with fisticuffs.

Marine.

And lets not forget, an extra foot or two of body size can be a crucial advantage in a lightsaber fight.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Pretty much. The opinion that 1 Jedi> 1 Marine but 1 Jedi< 1 Squad of Marines is probably the most accurate. However, Librarians have a greater amount of offensive powers, so would likely be superior to a few squads of Troopers depending on how powerful their blasters are.

A Librarian in the Dark Eldar codex ravaged the skies above Commorragh with a storm that was annihilating the Ravagers and other ships blocking the Forgehammer.

The average Jedi isn't crap to a Librarian.

Okee, I did say that Librarians have more offensive powers, dint I? Yeah, Jedi have more subtle powers. It's like comparing Tzeentch to Khorne.

iproxtaco wrote:Okee, I did say that Librarians have more offensive powers, dint I? Yeah, Jedi have more subtle powers. It's like comparing Tzeentch to Khorne.

I wasn't really trying to refute anything you said, only expand upon the Librarian's relation to a Jedi.

Subtle powers? Like their precog, you mean? Sure. Doesn't really help them that much against Droidekas, but okay.

I think Droidekas are deadly to jedi because of the shield generator and as such are immune to the preferred jedi ranged attack(deflected blaster fire) and not because of any weaponry advantage.

Not a huge fan of Star Wars (well I watched the movies and I enjoyed them). Here's my take:

Jedi Knight

WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
6 4 4 4 1 6 3 10 6+..................75pts

Wargear:
Light Sabre: A Light Sabre is a power weapon that always wounds on a D6 result of 4+ unless the result needed would be lower.


Special Rules:

Independent Character

The Force: The force is the Jedi's most potent weapon. Once per turn a Jedi Knight may re-roll one dice to hit, to wound or save.

Sense the Future: All Jedi are trained to sense the next few moments before they actually happen. To represent this all Jedi receive a 3+ invulnerable save against any attacks made against them.

Jedi Mind Tricks: Jedi are renowned for being able to manipulate the minds of lesser men. Once per turn you may choose a single non vehicle model on the board within 12". This model must successfully pass a LD test. If it is failed the target will automatically shoot a single ranged weapon (of the Jedi Knights choosing) at any unit chosen by the Jedi Knight's owner. If the model has no ranged weapon it will charge the closest unit (including it's own if it is part of a unit consisting of more than 1 model). A single round of close combat is immediately fought though there is no consolidation regardless of who wins and if the model survives he will return to normal at the end of the phase.

Just for fun.

sorry, but thats quite OP.

75 pts for a Str4, T4, WS6, 3 wound model with a 3+ invuln.


space marine chapter masters are almost twice as expensive and only have a 4+ invuln, no power weapon, and no special rule anywhere near as good.



make him Str and T3, 2 wounds, WS4, and only a 4+ invuln and he might be as low as 100 points.

Lukus83 wrote:Not a huge fan of Star Wars (well I watched the movies and I enjoyed them). Here's my take:

Jedi Knight

WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
6 4 4 4 1 6 3 10 6+..................75pts

Wargear:
Light Sabre: A Light Sabre is a power weapon that always wounds on a D6 result of 4+ unless the result needed would be lower.


Special Rules:

Independent Character

The Force: The force is the Jedi's most potent weapon. Once per turn a Jedi Knight may re-roll one dice to hit, to wound or save.

Sense the Future: All Jedi are trained to sense the next few moments before they actually happen. To represent this all Jedi receive a 3+ invulnerable save against any attacks made against them.

Jedi Mind Tricks: Jedi are renowned for being able to manipulate the minds of lesser men. Once per turn you may choose a single non vehicle model on the board within 12". This model must successfully pass a LD test. If it is failed the target will automatically shoot a single ranged weapon (of the Jedi Knights choosing) at any unit chosen by the Jedi Knight's owner. If the model has no ranged weapon it will charge the closest unit (including it's own if it is part of a unit consisting of more than 1 model). A single round of close combat is immediately fought though there is no consolidation regardless of who wins and if the model survives he will return to normal at the end of the phase.

Just for fun.

Force push: enemy unit or individual model must pass a STR test or be pushed back D6 inches, if the STR fails they must also take a pinning test as they are knocked to the ground by the force push.

Force Throw: The Jedi throws random objects at a target unit. Rocks, pieces of terrain, etc are flung at high velocity towards a unit. If the Jedi passes a Psyker test this ability will inflict 2D6 STR 4 hits with AP 5 on it's target model/unit.

Force Jump: The Jedi moves as if they had jump packs. This ability is used at the beginning of the jedi's turn.

Saber Toss: The Jedi may toss their light saber 12 inches causing D6 STR 8 hits on a single target. This counts as a shooting attack for LOS.

Battle Meditation: The Jedi are great tacticians, before the game starts the Jedi may redeploy D3 units before the game starts. also if a Jedi calls in reserves add a +1 to their roll for the reserves.

force lightning: This ability does 2D6 STR 4 hits with no AP but counts as STR 8 AP 1 against robot type models against a unit/model.

Fleet footed: Jedi ignore all difficult terrain and count it as normal, they may also reroll any failed dangerous terrain test, but the second result is kept regardless.

Force Choke: Jedi may target any single model with in 18 inches. The model must immediately pass a toughness test or suffer D3 wounds.

Precognitive: At the beginning of the turn the Jedi can foresee the future and augment any single friendly unit. Only one unit can have this ability at any given time, the augmented unit may reroll saving throws.

Force Speed: The Jedi may hasten them self at the beginning of their turn, to represent this they get one free vanguard moment before their turn starts if they choose to use this ability.

A jedi may cast up to 2 abilities in the shooting phase, and 1 ability at the beginning of that players turn.

Jedi

WS 6 (good with a sword)
BS 5 (good with a gun)
S 3 (he's only human after all)
T 3 (as above)
W 2 (Librarian standard)
I 6 (but a quick bugger)
A * (see below)
LD 9 (got to leave space for Jedi Heroes there)
Sv - (don't think those robes count as anything in 40K

Fleet, Quicksilver Dodge (see Lelith, Codex Dark Eldar), Move through Cover. * The Perfect Warrior (see GK Brotherhood Champion), Hit & Run

Equipment: Lightsaber (auto-wounds on 4+ max, ignores armour)

well if you saw the dawn of war trailer, you see an eldar stabbing a space marine in CC, if an eldar can do it, so can a guy with a lazer sword