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you guys are getting jedi stats all wrong.


WS6: really? Dante, Chapter master of the Blood Angels who has at least 1,000 years of combat experience is WS6. a Jedi, who would be lucky to live to be 100 and certaintly wouldn't see even 1% of the combat, certaintly wouldn't be the equal of a 1,000 year veteran who spent at least 98% of that time in active combat service. WS4 is the correct stat.

BS5: again, really? only the most experience space marines reach this level, and they use guns their entire lives. Jedi use blasters only when they lose their precious Lightsabres, which is rare. if anything, they would be BS3.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Okee, I did say that Librarians have more offensive powers, dint I? Yeah, Jedi have more subtle powers. It's like comparing Tzeentch to Khorne.

I wasn't really trying to refute anything you said, only expand upon the Librarian's relation to a Jedi.

Subtle powers? Like their precog, you mean? Sure. Doesn't really help them that much against Droidekas, but okay.

In a somewhat aggressive tone maybe.

Subtle powers like precog and the large variety of mind persuasion and control powers. Doesn't help against a Droideka, would help against the brain of an Astartes though.

Jedi mind powers and precognititive abilities didn't work on the clones due to the indoctrination they underwent.

Space Marines have even more intense psychotherapy and mental conditioning. their minds would be unbreakable against all but the most powerful Jedi(and then its doubtful)

IS THIS DEBATE STILL GOING ON!!! space marine WILL win cause if Clone Troopers can do it SO CAN MARINES!!

Grey Templar wrote:Jedi mind powers and precognititive abilities didn't work on the clones due to the indoctrination they underwent.

Space Marines have even more intense psychotherapy and mental conditioning. their minds would be unbreakable against all but the most powerful Jedi(and then its doubtful)

Wait, what? Clones were not immune to mind-affecting Force powers.

Their intentions were difficult to read, that's all. Mind powers still worked.

Nerivant wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Jedi mind powers and precognititive abilities didn't work on the clones due to the indoctrination they underwent.

Space Marines have even more intense psychotherapy and mental conditioning. their minds would be unbreakable against all but the most powerful Jedi(and then its doubtful)

Wait, what? Clones were not immune to mind-affecting Force powers.

no, but they are highly resistant to it and it is nearly impossable to read their intentions.

Hence, why the Clones were able to easily back stab all the jedi. they couldn't sense them.



Space Marines recieve massive amounts of mind conditioning to resist this very thing and so the Mind tricks wouldn't work very well.

I think this could make a great diorama: On a dimly light deck of a space ship/hulk, we'll have a Jedi in robes with his lightsaber drawn facing off against the Grey Knights' Justicar Thawn (who at this point has reached the rank of Grand Admiral) with Rukh/Snikrot laying in wait in the shadows nearby. Instant classic

We need something in there too about a ysalamir on his back to represent the aegis.

Jedi learn at a very accelerated rate. Just look what Luke and Anikan accomplished in such a short time. Obi Wan was young to become a master, and so was Yoda if I recall. I still think in all out war the 40K universe would win over the Star Wars universe though. Jedi aren't demi gods from the warp.

Even with an accelerated rate of learning, Jedi couldn't match the combat experience a space marine would gain.

Jedi arn't focused on warfare, Space Marines are. This means that many of the things a Jedi learns would have no application on the battlefield. the Jedi is more of a negotiator/defender, not a warrior. they make great bodyguards and diplomats, but have no place on a proper battlefield.

Grey Templar wrote:Even with an accelerated rate of learning, Jedi couldn't match the combat experience a space marine would gain.

Jedi arn't focused on warfare, Space Marines are. This means that many of the things a Jedi learns would have no application on the battlefield. the Jedi is more of a negotiator/defender, not a warrior. they make great bodyguards and diplomats, but have no place on a proper battlefield.

I don't know man, I am not totally engulfed in either Star Wars or Warhammer fluff, but I am very familiar with both broadly. I have read several of the star wars books as well. Jedi are definitely not weak warriors, and definitely could hold their own against Space Marines, but I think in the end the Marines would win in all out war. Some Jedi could just crush the marines in their armor with the force before they did anything, while other Jedi would not be able to do that.

Jedi are definitely not weak and they won't just roll over and let the Marines kill them with ease. If little wimpy Eldar can take out Marines so can Jedi.

Crom wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Even with an accelerated rate of learning, Jedi couldn't match the combat experience a space marine would gain.

Jedi arn't focused on warfare, Space Marines are. This means that many of the things a Jedi learns would have no application on the battlefield. the Jedi is more of a negotiator/defender, not a warrior. they make great bodyguards and diplomats, but have no place on a proper battlefield.

I don't know man, I am not totally engulfed in either Star Wars or Warhammer fluff, but I am very familiar with both broadly. I have read several of the star wars books as well. Jedi are definitely not weak warriors, and definitely could hold their own against Space Marines, but I think in the end the Marines would win in all out war. Some Jedi could just crush the marines in their armor with the force before they did anything, while other Jedi would not be able to do that.

Jedi are definitely not weak and they won't just roll over and let the Marines kill them with ease. If little wimpy Eldar can take out Marines so can Jedi.

He never said they were weak just had much less combat experience, and are not meant to be soldiers

iproxtaco wrote:In a somewhat aggressive tone maybe.

Subtle powers like precog and the large variety of mind persuasion and control powers. Doesn't help against a Droideka, would help against the brain of an Astartes though.

While there are certainly some wielders of the Force whom could affect the average Marine using mental persuasion or control powers, such as Nihilus or Luke, most could not. All Marines are highly mentally conditioned against such things, the average Jedi is not that strong.

As for Jedi having accelerated learning: Obi-Wan and Yoda are both exceptional Jedi, and the Skywalkers are certainly exceptional, no, they are completely unique, Anakin and Luke being the two most talented Jedi EVER. So, not really an accurate comparison.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:In a somewhat aggressive tone maybe.

Subtle powers like precog and the large variety of mind persuasion and control powers. Doesn't help against a Droideka, would help against the brain of an Astartes though.

While there are certainly some wielders of the Force whom could affect the average Marine using mental persuasion or control powers, such as Nihilus or Luke, most could not. All Marines are highly mentally conditioned against such things, the average Jedi is not that strong.

As for Jedi having accelerated learning: Obi-Wan and Yoda are both exceptional Jedi, and the Skywalkers are certainly exceptional, no, they are completely unique, Anakin and Luke being the two most talented Jedi EVER. So, not really an accurate comparison.

Then add in Revan, Kyp, the dude that made the 3 tier light saber, mace windu, I mean there are tons of Jedi that are very powerful. if you include all from the books and video games. Hell Kyle whats his face from dark force rising all the sudden became force aware in the second game and basically became an uber master by the end of the game, and that in all actuality probably was just in a couple of months time line wise. The sith that died in KOTOR II but kept his rotting corpse alive by his hatred fueled force powers...

There are so many powerful Jedi characters that are in fact trained in the arts of war. They just don't fight wars for 10 thousand years like space marines. Like I said, I think in the end the Space Marines would win, but it would be a close battle with heavy losses on both sides.

Crom wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Then add in Revan, Kyp, the dude that made the 3 tier light saber, mace windu, I mean there are tons of Jedi that are very powerful. if you include all from the books and video games. Hell Kyle whats his face from dark force rising all the sudden became force aware in the second game and basically became an uber master by the end of the game, and that in all actuality probably was just in a couple of months time line wise. The sith that died in KOTOR II but kept his rotting corpse alive by his hatred fueled force powers...

There are so many powerful Jedi characters that are in fact trained in the arts of war. They just don't fight wars for 10 thousand years like space marines. Like I said, I think in the end the Space Marines would win, but it would be a close battle with heavy losses on both sides.

Oh, and this is another flawed premise: We are comparing Space Marines, who have only existed for ten thousand years in 40k, to Jedi/Sith, who have been around for much longer in SW. Why is every era of Jedi/Sith being compared to the current Space Marines? Going by that, let's give them the Primarchs, hell, let's give the Space Marines the God Emperor for comparison. The comparison is flawed.

Every Jedi or Sith you named is to some extent exceptional, beyond the norm.

The average Jedi can be killed by blaster, let alone bolter. And once again, I am not convinced a lightsaber could reliably cut through ceramite.

also, if a jedi did try to block a bolter, it would just explode and kill him/her when it hit their lightsaber!!!

dajobe wrote:also, if a jedi did try to block a bolter, it would just explode and kill him/her when it hit their lightsaber!!!

Jedi can absorb energy, it would kill some, others would shrug it off.

Oh, and this is another flawed premise: We are comparing Space Marines, who have only existed for ten thousand years in 40k, to Jedi/Sith, who have been around for much longer in SW. Why is every era of Jedi/Sith being compared to the current Space Marines? Going by that, let's give them the Primarchs, hell, let's give the Space Marines the God Emperor for comparison. The comparison is flawed.

Every Jedi or Sith you named is to some extent exceptional, beyond the norm.

The average Jedi can be killed by blaster, let alone bolter. And once again, I am not convinced a lightsaber could reliably cut through ceramite.

I am not a fan boy nor do I really care who can win in a fight between a Jedi and a Space Marine. What I am doing is just basically posting information and trying to keep it balanced. Your comparison about how a clone can kill a Jedi with a blaster does not mean that Space Marines are far superior. Gretchin can kill space marines, I have seen it happen. Hell, I have seen space marines die due to dangerous terrain tests. I have seen wimpy little guardians take out space marines, and none of those things are any more worse than a clone in Star Wars.

I already brought up the fact if we are comparing the entire saga of both sides 40K would easily win because of technology and all the gods of the warp, which are pretty much unkillable. Though if you compare it with say the death star or the sun crusher, in fact the sun crusher could wipe out all of the 40K universe. It is indestructible, and it causes suns to white dwarf wiping out whole systems.

In the books Luke cuts through a space ship with his light saber.

Here goes an old republic trailer showing how Jedi can absorb energy



here is another one displaying what masters can do

Holly Terra this is still going.....
When will Star Wars fans realize that Warhammer 40000 is much more richer and interesting than their "let's have a 3 year war and live 3000 years in peace".

I mean seriously guys. I never saw bigger mix of cultures then in 40k, or the size of battles. Star Wars is also not Grim-Dark as Warhammer 40000 is and it doesn't have the most important thing in all sci-fi = EARTH.

It is still interesting and it is more knows simply because GW didn't want to invest in 40k movies. If not for book sales, video games and the popularity of table top games 40k wouldn't exist today...

And I am still standing wit hmy view: Warhammer 40000>Star Wars>Star Trek>Halo>Starcraft...

In your opinion should be the afterward, people can prefer or despise what they want, no matter how stupid you think their reasons are. That whole "When will Star Wars fans realize" line insufferably arrogant.

And in 40k arrogance is a bliss

Luckily we aren't in the 40k universe, so that sentence is simply arrogant.

And I am still standing wit hmy view: Warhammer 40000>Star Wars>Star Trek>Halo>Starcraft...

Dude, nothing beats a zerg rush, NOTHING!

Just wanted to point out that if you check the stats for what I wrote the Jedi only has a single wound. Meh...

iproxtaco wrote:Luckily we aren't in the 40k universe, so that sentence is simply arrogant.

We aren't?
Now look, you made the Ork sad

Well, a (regular-sized, non-space-marine) guy with armour, a laspistol and some toys can beat a Jedi (even one already with a Sith-kill to his name), whatever tricks they may have. So Space Marines should be able to do likewise.

Zweischneid wrote:Well, a (regular-sized, non-space-marine) guy with armour, a laspistol and some toys can beat a Jedi (even one already with a Sith-kill to his name), whatever tricks they may have. So Space Marines should be able to do likewise.

Man...I need to unsubscribe to this thread.

Jango Fett was a Mandalorian Super Trooper. Super elite, not just some guy. Mandalorians had special training to combat Jedi, because they have had battles with them in the past. That is why they used his DNA as the basis of all the clone soldiers. Also, this analogy is not a good one because in game a gretchin can technically kill a space marine as well as a puny little weak guardian. Seen it happen before.

Crom wrote: I have read several of the star wars books as well.

There's your problem.

The movie Jedis couldn't even hope to scratch the ass of a book Jedi. The non-canon Star Wars turned Jedi into physical gods of magic and might. Movie Jedis got slaughtered almost to a man by regular soldiers.

Star Wars outside the films are about as poor representation of Star Wars as could be made.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Crom wrote: I have read several of the star wars books as well.

There's your problem.

The movie Jedis couldn't even hope to scratch the ass of a book Jedi. The non-canon Star Wars turned Jedi into physical gods of magic and might. Movie Jedis got slaughtered almost to a man by regular soldiers.

Star Wars outside the films are about as poor representation of Star Wars as could be made.

Well I think to make a comparison you need to take all in, from every era, from all the books, video games, magazines, comics, movies, and so forth. Then you can make an accurate comparison. Given that, I have already stated I think that the 40K universe would defeat the star wars universe, but I am arguing the point it would not be an easy win. You also gotta realize, Lucas is a horrible writer, and those that wrote the media outside the films actually wrote better stories. Hell, the video game KOTOR had a better story than all the star wars movies combined. Then you got force unleashed where starkiller literally rips down a star destroyer from low orbit to the ground.

I would put clone soldiers on the same level as elite guardsmen. They are genetically engineered and trained since birth for combat. However, they don't have all the luxuries of the gene seed that a Marine does. It has also been said in my books that trooper armor in SW is not all that great.

Now again, I can also argue that outside of the official GW fluff, the 40K universe is even more powerful and god-like. Just like SW is with third party. I mean the comic series where Luke goes to the dark side is nuts, and when he returns back to the light is exponentially more powerful than before. However, I don't quite think he holds the power of the Emporer before the golden throne.

I can also see Master Jedi wiping out marine chapters, just not all of them. I also see the Sith easily falling to the temptations of the Chaos gods too. That would put a whole new level of issues. A sith with the force and the gifts of chaos....

KOTOR=awesome

A Jedi master might be able to do serious damage to a Marine chapter, but he certaintly couldn't wipe one.

Librarians would be a major sticking point. 10 dudes of his level of power, who have NO qualms about killing him, would likely overwhelm him. Yoda excepted, cause, well, he's Yoda!


a Jedi's moral code would be his undoing. they will take prisoners and don't engage in needlesss killing. its all find and dandy in their universe, but when the prisoner you are taking will likely be able to break out of whatever restraining item you place him in and break your neck when your back is turned it isn't a good idea. The marine's mental preparedness would mean the Jedi wouldn't always sense the maliciousness, assuming there was any(ala Episode 3)