iproxtaco wrote:
Ah, this quote again. Perhaps you should read the part just after it, you know, that part that says only a fool would bet on either in the outcome of such a duel. They're pretty evenly matched, the Custodes are fencers, the Space Marines are Cage Fighters, roughly equal in terms of ability.

A few key points we have here. Firstly, it says "of the age". That was 10,000 years ago. Not only has Power Armour improved since then, but the Grey Knights have the most up-to-date suits made specifically for them. They're quite superior in that department.
The second key point is the fact that they had access to the same equipment as the Space Marine Legions. Grey Knights have their own specialized equipment made specifically for them, such as Force Swords, wrist mounted Storm Bolters, and of course, their copious numbers of elite Terminator Armour.
The Third point is the word "influence". The Custodes influenced the design of Grey Knight gear. That does not make it superior. In fact, it's more likely that improvements were made, and then there's the general advance of the technology over the time-line.
Then we have the part that says that Custodes have abandoned their armour. Their armour may be in states of disrepair, or lost.
In addition, the Grey Knights have access to all the more modern pieces of Space Marine tech, which the Custodes do not.

I hinted at it a few posts back, but if anyone has read A Thousand Sons, they may have noticed Custodes dying in droves to Thousand Sons psychic powers. Yes, that's right, Custodes are extremely vulnerable to psykers, just like any Space Marine. ALL Grey Knights are highly accomplished battle psykers, it's a potent weapon against the Daemonic. That brings me on to the point that Grey Knights are able to use their immense psychic abilities to boost their attributes, and even use their powers in conjunction with each other through the Aegis. That means they can be stronger and faster, strengthen their armour, and increase the power of their attacks.

Then there's the point about brotherhood. Custodes do not work together, they do not coordinate as squads, they are not battlefield soldiers. They're highly individual, and work better as body guards and assassins. The Grey Knights are the opposite. They likely work together more than conventional Marines due to the enemies they face and the advantage of the Aegis network. To argue that Grey Knights are at a disadvantage is moronic, and reeks of desperation more than reasoning.

Durza wrote:
Also, that Mary Sue test is designed to test characters written for a novel. About a quarter of the questions are non-applicable.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Ah, this quote again. Perhaps you should read the part just after it, you know, that part that says only a fool would bet on either in the outcome of such a duel. They're pretty evenly matched, the Custodes are fencers, the Space Marines are Cage Fighters, roughly equal in terms of ability.

"but the differences are only noticeably significant in a few specific cases..." Witch probably means they can always beat standard Marines except in that few cases.

A few key points we have here. Firstly, it says "of the age". That was 10,000 years ago. Not only has Power Armour improved since then, but the Grey Knights have the most up-to-date suits made specifically for them. They're quite superior in that department.
The second key point is the fact that they had access to the same equipment as the Space Marine Legions. Grey Knights have their own specialized equipment made specifically for them, such as Force Swords, wrist mounted Storm Bolters, and of course, their copious numbers of elite Terminator Armour.
The Third point is the word "influence". The Custodes influenced the design of Grey Knight gear. That does not make it superior. In fact, it's more likely that improvements were made, and then there's the general advance of the technology over the time-line.
Then we have the part that says that Custodes have abandoned their armour. Their armour may be in states of disrepair, or lost.
In addition, the Grey Knights have access to all the more modern pieces of Space Marine tech, which the Custodes do not.

I hinted at it a few posts back, but if anyone has read A Thousand Sons, they may have noticed Custodes dying in droves to Thousand Sons psychic powers. Yes, that's right, Custodes are extremely vulnerable to psykers, just like any Space Marine. ALL Grey Knights are highly accomplished battle psykers, it's a potent weapon against the Daemonic. That brings me on to the point that Grey Knights are able to use their immense psychic abilities to boost their attributes, and even use their powers in conjunction with each other through the Aegis. That means they can be stronger and faster, strengthen their armour, and increase the power of their attacks.

Then there's the point about brotherhood. Custodes do not work together, they do not coordinate as squads, they are not battlefield soldiers. They're highly individual, and work better as body guards and assassins. The Grey Knights are the opposite. They likely work together more than conventional Marines due to the enemies they face and the advantage of the Aegis network. To argue that Grey Knights are at a disadvantage is moronic, and reeks of desperation more than reasoning.

You are right, when it comes to terms of tech and psychic powers. It appears that after the Heresy Custodes had to give their weapons to the Mechanicus so it can produce more advanced things. And armor didn't progress much from them, every marine still ware Mark VII armor ( witch dates from 31.000 ), Mark 8 is only recently upgraded and put in use. But Custodes have 1 advantage over the GK and that is numbers. When you look at it, Marines only have some better weapons and teamwork against them, Custodes have strength and numbers against them. And then can work in groups in special occasions.

But in the end Grey Knights are better because 1 factor - they fought in the last 10.000 years, Custodes didn't. There is even the information about Grey Knights wiping Ork WARGH!!! without any casualty and going away after that.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Ah, this quote again. Perhaps you should read the part just after it, you know, that part that says only a fool would bet on either in the outcome of such a duel. They're pretty evenly matched, the Custodes are fencers, the Space Marines are Cage Fighters, roughly equal in terms of ability.

"but the differences are only noticeably significant in a few specific cases..." Witch probably means they can always beat standard Marines except in that few cases.

A few key points we have here. Firstly, it says "of the age". That was 10,000 years ago. Not only has Power Armour improved since then, but the Grey Knights have the most up-to-date suits made specifically for them. They're quite superior in that department.
The second key point is the fact that they had access to the same equipment as the Space Marine Legions. Grey Knights have their own specialized equipment made specifically for them, such as Force Swords, wrist mounted Storm Bolters, and of course, their copious numbers of elite Terminator Armour.
The Third point is the word "influence". The Custodes influenced the design of Grey Knight gear. That does not make it superior. In fact, it's more likely that improvements were made, and then there's the general advance of the technology over the time-line.
Then we have the part that says that Custodes have abandoned their armour. Their armour may be in states of disrepair, or lost.
In addition, the Grey Knights have access to all the more modern pieces of Space Marine tech, which the Custodes do not.

I hinted at it a few posts back, but if anyone has read A Thousand Sons, they may have noticed Custodes dying in droves to Thousand Sons psychic powers. Yes, that's right, Custodes are extremely vulnerable to psykers, just like any Space Marine. ALL Grey Knights are highly accomplished battle psykers, it's a potent weapon against the Daemonic. That brings me on to the point that Grey Knights are able to use their immense psychic abilities to boost their attributes, and even use their powers in conjunction with each other through the Aegis. That means they can be stronger and faster, strengthen their armour, and increase the power of their attacks.

Then there's the point about brotherhood. Custodes do not work together, they do not coordinate as squads, they are not battlefield soldiers. They're highly individual, and work better as body guards and assassins. The Grey Knights are the opposite. They likely work together more than conventional Marines due to the enemies they face and the advantage of the Aegis network. To argue that Grey Knights are at a disadvantage is moronic, and reeks of desperation more than reasoning.

You are right, when it comes to terms of tech and psychic powers. It appears that after the Heresy Custodes had to give their weapons to the Mechanicus so it can produce more advanced things. And armor didn't progress much from them, every marine still ware Mark VII armor ( witch dates from 31.000 ), Mark 8 is only recently upgraded and put in use. But Custodes have 1 advantage over the GK and that is numbers. When you look at it, Marines only have some better weapons and teamwork against them, Custodes have strength and numbers against them. And then can work in groups in special occasions.

But in the end Grey Knights are better because 1 factor - they fought in the last 10.000 years, Custodes didn't. There is even the information about Grey Knights wiping Ork WARGH!!! without any casualty and going away after that.

Brother Coa wrote:
So?
Everyone will believe in his opinion when there is no enough evidence to support otherwise.
Just like Science vs. Religion in question: Do God exist?
People will use their own formed opinions, and some will even try to contradict the evidence that goes against them even if the evidence is correct.

CpatTom wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
So?
Everyone will believe in his opinion when there is no enough evidence to support otherwise.
Just like Science vs. Religion in question: Do God exist?
People will use their own formed opinions, and some will even try to contradict the evidence that goes against them even if the evidence is correct.

So, would you say that continuing this argument was completely pointless because it never accomplishes anything?

Brother Coa wrote:

CpatTom wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
So?
Everyone will believe in his opinion when there is no enough evidence to support otherwise.
Just like Science vs. Religion in question: Do God exist?
People will use their own formed opinions, and some will even try to contradict the evidence that goes against them even if the evidence is correct.

So, would you say that continuing this argument was completely pointless because it never accomplishes anything?

It has accomplished, Draigo will be victorious in the end witch makes all this "torture" thing irrelevant. And Dark Gods may refer to Chaos Gods to.

And the big question: Why would Astartes and Grey Knight fight against Custodes in the first place?

iproxtaco wrote:
Do you edit 1d4chan? Seriously, that website's in the habit of making things up as well. No one has said they torture him, that's your own fabrication, and you've mentioned it twice despite being corrected.

Trying to activate the Terminus Decree? Mistaken identity? The Custodes are a bit old and don't know how to react except defend the Emperor at all costs, even if it's against loyalists?

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Do you edit 1d4chan? Seriously, that website's in the habit of making things up as well. No one has said they torture him, that's your own fabrication, and you've mentioned it twice despite being corrected.

"Such has been Draigo's fate ever repeated since: to walk the Realm of Chaos for unknowable spans of time, on occasion taking his eternal battle into the mortal world for brief spans before being freshly jailed upon victory. It is hard to imagine the fortitude of character that allows Draigo to endure such hardship, yet endure it he does. He walks the Realm of Chaos still, continuing his eternal battle against the Chaos Gods.
One day, he will return. - 5'th edition GK codex.

Witch means automatic win because no matter what Chaos Gods throw at him ( their servants ) he will get out of it one day just like the text say, and that will mean victory for him because he has been trapped in the Warp for so long, enure corruption, servants of the Dark Gods sent against him and endless tests only to one day be able to exit the Warp and return to the Grey Knights to lead them again. If that is not victory I don't know what is it.

Trying to activate the Terminus Decree? Mistaken identity? The Custodes are a bit old and don't know how to react except defend the Emperor at all costs, even if it's against loyalists?

That still remains to be seen, maybe they already know about this?

CpatTom wrote:Victory might mean dying uncorrupted.

Answer my question.

iproxtaco wrote:
You need to stop taking things so literally. That last part about him returning is not absolute fact, it's a bit of character propaganda.

Brother Coa wrote:

CpatTom wrote:Victory might mean dying uncorrupted.

Answer my question.

"One day he will return."

That sound like victory to me for a men trapped in something.

iproxtaco wrote:
You need to stop taking things so literally. That last part about him returning is not absolute fact, it's a bit of character propaganda.

See how easy it is to twist prof into your own seeings when it contradicts your opinion?
The sentence is clear, he will return one day. It is written so in codex and there is nothing to suggest that that isn't true.

CpatTom wrote:This is your warp, and each day you get on here and type away, and the next day all the people who dont believe you come back. One day, you will die, and be free of this pointless existence.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
You need to stop taking things so literally. That last part about him returning is not absolute fact, it's a bit of character propaganda.

See how easy it is to twist prof into your own seeings when it contradicts your opinion?
The sentence is clear, he will return one day. It is written so in codex and there is nothing to suggest that that isn't true.

iproxtaco wrote:
That's stupidly hypocritical of you. All you do is twist the setting to fit your narrow perception of the fluff, citing the codex as "propaganda". Well the character fluff is pretty much all propaganda bar the basic facts. It's character fluff, it is not fact.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
That's stupidly hypocritical of you. All you do is twist the setting to fit your narrow perception of the fluff, citing the codex as "propaganda". Well the character fluff is pretty much all propaganda bar the basic facts. It's character fluff, it is not fact.

Just like you
Ah, how easy is to not believe something that contradict's your claims...

Durza wrote:There is no proof the Emperor exists except in Imperial and Chaos fluff. Same can be then told for Chaos Gods since they appear only in few codexes This must mean he's just a conspiracy they made up so they could have fun wars.

You can't claim that one codex is absolutely truthful and all others are propaganda. All codices are equally accurate.

Brother Coa wrote:They are myths, there are no prof of their existence beside Eldar fluff ( by their logic Emperor is a God to ). There is also no prof that Necrons are numberless or that there is some great Hive Fleet coming toward the galaxy. That is all propaganda.

Grey Knight fluff is something different, there are no speculation or theories for them - but actual characters, battles and locations. And yo twist the fluff to, I point to the last sentence you say: "That last part about him returning is not absolute fact, it's a bit of character propaganda." who is twisting the fluff now?

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:There is no proof the Emperor exists except in Imperial and Chaos fluff. Same can be then told for Chaos Gods since they appear only in few codexes This must mean he's just a conspiracy they made up so they could have fun wars.

You can't claim that one codex is absolutely truthful and all others are propaganda. All codices are equally accurate.

There is prof - Act's of Faith. And not all fluff is propaganda but much of it is.

iproxtaco wrote:
You're contradicting yourself again. Much of the Grey Knights stuff is the same, that sentence is a prime example. And yet, you still argue that it's fact.

Brother Coa wrote:Whatever you say, I still think taht Draigo will return one day.
Only that I have prof and you don't.
And the fact that he will return means victory fir him and defeat for the Dark Gods ( imput what you want here ).

Brother Coa wrote:Whatever you say, I still think taht Draigo will return one day.
Only that I have prof and you don't.
And the fact that he will return means victory fir him and defeat for the Dark Gods ( imput what you want here ).

iproxtaco wrote:
You're contradicting yourself again. Much of the Grey Knights stuff is the same, that sentence is a prime example. And yet, you still argue that it's fact.

You mean, land on the planet, kill every Daemon alive and go away?

iproxtaco wrote:[
No, they aren't. The Avatar is proof of this, and the fact that the bare information is there. There's propaganda through it, but the basic facts are right.

iproxtaco wrote:
You don't have proof. You have a single line that's there as character fluff, and not fact. Confirmation bias, again.

That's the bare-bones facts of a particular incident. A lot of the other stuff is filler and meant to make the army look good, propaganda.