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iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

But we have 10.000 guys ready for war at any time

Obliterated from orbit.
/discussion.

Teleporters.
/discussion.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

But we have 10.000 guys ready for war at any time

Obliterated from orbit.
/discussion.

Teleporters.
/discussion.

So you're going to run? Brilliant. Prepare to die in droves like the Space Wolves died to the Thousand Sons.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

But we have 10.000 guys ready for war at any time

Obliterated from orbit.
/discussion.

Teleporters.
/discussion.

You get up to your ships, you will find them smoldering husks.

BSent wrote:To be honest I don't have a problem with a lot of they Grey Knight fluff. I mainly have 2 issues. First one being how the Grey Knights mind-wipe everyone. It's inconsistent with other fluff, but most importantly, why are they brain washing Space Marines. At one point, the Blood Angels team up with Grey Knights, and Dante agrees to have everyone mind wiped about it. I can understand doing that to guardsman and the regular populace, but I don't have any understanding of why they would want to do that to a Space Marine.

The mindwiping part is actually pretty old and it even makes sense. While spacemarines are mighty warriors they can still be corrupted, both in body and in mind.
Large scale daemonic infestations, the primary reason for a Grey Knights pressence, are one of the most corrupting things that a human being can witness
( the laws of physics are at least partialy suspended, the raw stuff of chaos spills into realspace and so on...). White mutation can be quickly dealt with corruption of the mind
is much more difficult to detect. Who can say which doubts ( or worse ) lurk in the mind of a spacemarine who witnessed hell become reality?
In such a case it is better to mindwipe the marine than to risk any chance of corruption ( which is still much better than the fate that is reserved for most other survivors of such an occurance ).

iproxtaco wrote:
So you're going to run? Brilliant. Prepare to die in droves like the Space Wolves died to the Thousand Sons.

I meant, 10.000 Custodes teleport to your fleet and then what?
Even the Primarch had hard time taking them down...

He got a 78 on the test, "irredeemable".

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:You want proof that he's not Mary Sue? Here's your fething proof:

Nothing he does Matters. He's a gnat, a fly on the wall that's an annoyance. Everything he does gets turned back in the blink of an eye. That's not Mary Sue, that's Tragic.

"As a lowly Battle-Brother he banished the Daemon Prince M'kar the Reborn and he has risen steadily through the ranks to become the Grand Master of the most secretive Chapter of Space Marines. Yet ever since his battle with M'kar, Draigo has been cursed to a life within the Warp, doomed to walk within the Realm of Chaos. To remain pure when constantly assailed by Chaos shows such fortitude and personal strength that it is beyond measure. But while Draigo lives, he will prevail and one day, he will return."

Not at all....

http://www.onlyfiction.net/marysue2.html


Put Draigo's Info in there, see what the Total is.

Umm...I got 124 for him, which is close to double the amount needed for "irredeemable mary sue"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

Yes, but they have flying rhinos.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
So you're going to run? Brilliant. Prepare to die in droves like the Space Wolves died to the Thousand Sons.

I meant, 10.000 Custodes teleport to your fleet and then what?
Even the Primarch had hard time taking them down...

The 1000 Grey Knights swat them like flies using their psychic powers.

I got 73

"71 points or more: Irredeemable-Sue. You're going to have to start over, my friend. I know you want to keep writing, but no. Just no."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
The 1000 Grey Knights swat them like flies using their psychic powers.

On 1 GK comes 10 Custodians, and everyone of them is a mini-Emperor.
GK get raped hard...

It's not an open battle-field where 10 Custodes will always face 1 Grey Knight. It's the confines of a ship where each Grey Knight is roughly equal to a Custode WITHOUT his psychic powers.
All Space Marines are like mini-emperors, the Grey Knights are closer to Him than any other but the Primarchs.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
So you're going to run? Brilliant. Prepare to die in droves like the Space Wolves died to the Thousand Sons.

I meant, 10.000 Custodes teleport to your fleet and then what?
Even the Primarch had hard time taking them down...

The 1000 Grey Knights swat them like flies using their psychic powers.

Umm...knothx.

They get chopped by custodes.

Custodes don't have that enormous weakness of brotherhood either.

Plus Custode equipment> GK Equipment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:It's not an open battle-field where 10 Custodes will always face 1 Grey Knight. It's the confines of a ship where each Grey Knight is roughly equal to a Custode WITHOUT his psychic powers.
All Space Marines are like mini-emperors, the Grey Knights are closer to Him than any other but the Primarchs.

...but the primarchs AND THE CUSTODES.

SM are copies of copies of the emperor, custodes are copies of the emperor, therin lay the difference.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
So you're going to run? Brilliant. Prepare to die in droves like the Space Wolves died to the Thousand Sons.

I meant, 10.000 Custodes teleport to your fleet and then what?
Even the Primarch had hard time taking them down...

The 1000 Grey Knights swat them like flies using their psychic powers.

Umm...knothx.

They get chopped by custodes.

Custodes don't have that enormous weakness of brotherhood either.

Plus Custode equipment> GK Equipment.

Stop trolling.
Custodes have an enormous weakness in their lack of cooperation and battlefield direction. That makes them inferior soldiers to the Grey Knights.
The second part is conjecture. Custode equipment is great, but Grey Knight armour and weapons are literally the pinnacle of Asartes warfare. Provide a comparison or they're quite equal.

iproxtaco wrote:It's not an open battle-field where 10 Custodes will always face 1 Grey Knight. It's the confines of a ship where each Grey Knight is roughly equal to a Custode WITHOUT his psychic powers.
All Space Marines are like mini-emperors, the Grey Knights are closer to Him than any other but the Primarchs.

...but the primarchs AND THE CUSTODES.

SM are copies of copies of the emperor, custodes are copies of the emperor, therin lay the difference.

Grey Knights are likely copies of the Emperor, using unique geneseed derived straight from Him. The Custodes are so far detailed to be independently created slabs of genetic scrap grown in test-tubes. Any link to the Emperor is again, conjecture, until you provide some sort of proof.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Umm...I got 124 for him, which is close to double the amount needed for "irredeemable mary sue"

Really? I got 31. What test where you taking?

im2randomghgh wrote:
Custodes don't have that enormous weakness of brotherhood either.

Plus Custode equipment> GK Equipment.

Maybe in M31, but Custodes equipment as of M41 consists of a leather coat and a communicator helmet. That's nothing compared to Aegis Armor.
Also, brotherhood an enormous weakness? You must be joking.

im2randomghgh wrote:
SM are copies of copies of the emperor, custodes are copies of the emperor, therin lay the difference.

Custodes aren't clones. They may use some of his genetics to attain their superhuman status, but they aren't clones.

Ironsight wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Umm...I got 124 for him, which is close to double the amount needed for "irredeemable mary sue"

Really? I got 31. What test where you taking?

im2randomghgh wrote:
Custodes don't have that enormous weakness of brotherhood either.

Plus Custode equipment> GK Equipment.

Maybe in M31, but Custodes equipment as of M41 consists of a leather coat and a communicator helmet. That's nothing compared to Aegis Armor.
Also, brotherhood an enormous weakness? You must be joking.

im2randomghgh wrote:
SM are copies of copies of the emperor, custodes are copies of the emperor, therin lay the difference.

Custodes aren't clones. They may use some of his genetics to attain their superhuman status, but they aren't clones.

1. Unless you want to compare answers for the 200 questions...

2. They don't wear their equipment because they are not at war. I have never seen anything that said "they destroyed their equipment", unless of course you have a quote?

And if you read the returned, Tarikus, an otherwise steadfast sergeant, came phenominally close to being corrupted BECAUSE he desired brotherhood so much he almost sought it from TRAITOR MARINES.

3. They are much, much closer to clones than space marines. Space marines are augmented humans, custodes are creations.

And the GK thing had an alternate (and much, much more plausible) theory as to their origin where they had a "genetic cocktail" draw from several/all primarchs.

i dont want to join the big arguing im going to just add that if i remember correctly... dark gods is the same as chaos gods or ruinous powers
synonyms
diferent names for the same thing

I got a 35 on the test when I ran through it.

So we have one 35, one 124, one 73, and a 31.


We should compare our notes and see why we got such different answers. We won't, but we should.

The best we can really do unless we compare notes would be to add them up and divide by 4.


78.5

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I got a 35 on the test when I ran through it.

So we have one 35, one 124, one 73, and a 31.


We should compare our notes and see why we got such different answers. We won't, but we should.

The best we can really do unless we compare notes would be to add them up and divide by 4.


78.5

True. I checked the box that said "ninja" though, so I guess it's really 123

When the Necrons get all those pylon things up it wont much matter how Mary Sue Draigo is (aka Alpharius, because everybody knows Draigo is secretly just Alpharius).

iproxtaco wrote:So you're going to run? Brilliant. Prepare to die in droves like the Space Wolves died to the Thousand Sons.

On another note, it's already been shown that the Custodes don't do so well against Astartes, when the Astartes also happen to be powerful psykers. Which the Grey Knights happen to be.

ph34r wrote:It sounds like Kanluwen is being an adult and Void__Dragon being the baby putting words in people's mouth in this situation.

Kan and I don't see eye to eye all the time but if we are agreeing against you, you probably fethed up bad.

Try to actually read the discussion before you start namecalling someone who can't recall talking to you. That'd be great.

im2randomghgh wrote:
1. Unless you want to compare answers for the 200 questions...

Go ahead, take a screenshot of what you marked. I'm genuinely curious of how you manged to get 124 points without marking at least half the questions.

im2randomghgh wrote:
2. They don't wear their equipment because they are not at war. I have never seen anything that said "they destroyed their equipment", unless of course you have a quote?

Ok, so if a Custodes and a Grey Knight were magicaly transported onto a battlefield from whatever they were doing at the time of 41.999, the Grey Knight would have the avantage.
If the Custodes had time to mobilize for battle, and had the gear he had fighting in M31, they'd be equal.
In armor, they are likely the same. In terms of weaponry though, Nemesis Force Halberd + Storm Bolter beats Guardian Spear.
And lets not forget about the formidable psychic powers all Grey Knights possess.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And if you read the returned, Tarikus, an otherwise steadfast sergeant, came phenominally close to being corrupted BECAUSE he desired brotherhood so much he almost sought it from TRAITOR MARINES.

I've not read the story, but going off your quote, that's a character flaw on his part and crappy writing on the authors part. You cannot seriously be thinking that unity and teamwork are "enormous weaknesses" on the the battlefield.

"Generally, the Custodes are larger and more powerful than Space Marines..."

"Originally, they were equipped with the best power armour of the age, and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions. Equipment which was characteristic of the Custodes would influence the equipment of the later Grey Knights. After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour, and their traditional colour of red was changed to black."

/Custodian discussion

Brother Coa wrote:"Generally, the Custodes are larger and more powerful than Space Marines..."

"Originally, they were equipped with the best power armour of the age, and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions. Equipment which was characteristic of the Custodes would influence the equipment of the later Grey Knights. After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour, and their traditional colour of red was changed to black."

/Custodian discussion

They're larger and individually more powerful than the Astartes, but they don't have the teamwork that the Astartes have. Seriously, this has been said how many times now?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:There are Ork Empires in the Maelstrom and the Eye, there's also that Ork Warboss who gets reincarnated after every battle to fight Daemons.

That's not the same though. They're in a Warp space overlap, not actually inside the Warp. There's a reason Gellar Fields are used when traversing the Warp.

A fair point SREG, those are a mixture of the two. True about the Geller Field as well but it's largley to keep from getting smashed to bits by storms and eaten by daemons and safe from the other denizens of the warp. Space Hulks and their occupants drift through the warp without Gellar Fields. The Eisentsteins Gellar field failed but they survived. The Gellar field makes warp travel safer, without one it would make travel very hazardous. In Soul Reaver a Red Corsair survives transition into the warp on the outside of a ship, he does get a bit daemony after that experience though.

Brother Coa wrote:"Generally, the Custodes are larger and more powerful than Space Marines..."

"Originally, they were equipped with the best power armour of the age, and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions. Equipment which was characteristic of the Custodes would influence the equipment of the later Grey Knights. After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour, and their traditional colour of red was changed to black."

/Custodian discussion

Really, the Custodes vs Grey Knight thing again?

Coa, influencing the design of armour doesn't make the original version superior, it's more than likely that the newer more up to date model is going to be more effective. Why give the Grey Knights inferior armour when they are actually fighting wars and not hanging around the palace?

And also

First among equals, the Grey Knights utilise the very finest equipment that the Mechanicum of Mars have to offer, vehicles and weaponry so esoteric and rare that they are reserved exclusively for their use.

So I would say that that trumps your

Brother Coa wrote:and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions.

But really, and I can't believe I am standing up for Kaldor, him surviving in the Warp is possible. After all, a very powerful Daemon Prince put him there. If the Dark Gods were to give Draigo their full attention they would obliterate him with little more than a thought. But look at this way, what more do the Gods enjoy than seeing their rivals come a cropper? It's all part of the Great Game.

The technology point is moot really, imo. Collective Visions (iirc) pointed out that Nemesis Force Weapons took their initial designs from the Guardian Spear. Considering all their similar preferences in technology (teleporting, etc) and that Grey Knights even have the authority to upgrade their mech regardless of the AdMech's opinion (C:GK - LR entry, etc.) it's not a far stretch to say that they're both roughly on equal terms. As I see it, Grey Knights really just picked up on the practices and technological innovations where the Custodes left off at after the Heresy.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:They're larger and individually more powerful than the Astartes, but they don't have the teamwork that the Astartes have. Seriously, this has been said how many times now?

Unfortunately, this sentence is also one of the most abused lines in the fluff when it comes to this argument. People keep on chopping that quote in half to suit their slanted views. The rest of the paragraph says something along the lines of the differences are minor and only notable in a few cases - that [unarmed] no-one would like to foolish enough to predict the outcome of a duel between the two. The same people are also often reluctant to bring up the fact that a GK can psychically boost their physical attributes (e.g. Hammerhand) to overcome stronger foes.

iproxtaco wrote:Grey Knights are good against everything and are a more effective fighting force.

When someone states that Grey Knights are only good against daemons, it is sure-sign method of identifying someone who knows sweet cuss-all about them. Grey Knights specialise in dealing with Daemons, true - that is their MO. But they are versatile and skillful enough to kick the cuss out of other types of opponent too. Sometimes just being associated with daemons, rather than being one is enough to end up on the receiving end of a NFW. Just ask the Flame Falcons and the Relictors. Recommended reading?: The Imperialis Armageddon - Hoare & McNeill, the Thule Decimation (WD 309) and The Killing Ground - McNeill. The last one actually has a fight where a GKBC makes a mockery of two UM officers. Aquillon and co. would have been proud.

Greyish wrote:The technology point is moot really, imo. Collective Visions (iirc) pointed out that Nemesis Force Weapons took their initial designs from the Guardian Spear. Considering all their similar preferences in technology (teleporting, etc) and that Grey Knights even have the authority to upgrade their mech regardless of the AdMech's opinion (C:GK - LR entry, etc.) it's not a far stretch to say that they're both roughly on equal terms. As I see it, Grey Knights really just picked up on the practices and technological innovations where the Custodes left off at after the Heresy.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:They're larger and individually more powerful than the Astartes, but they don't have the teamwork that the Astartes have. Seriously, this has been said how many times now?

Unfortunately, this sentence is also one of the most abused lines in the fluff when it comes to this argument. People keep on chopping that quote in half to suit their slanted views. The rest of the paragraph says something along the lines of the differences are minor and only notable in a few cases - that [unarmed] no-one would like to foolish enough to predict the outcome of a duel between the two. The same people are also often reluctant to bring up the fact that a GK can psychically boost their physical attributes (e.g. Hammerhand) to overcome stronger foes.

In a one-on-one fight, no one should. In a larger encounter, the fact that the Grey Knights support eachother would give them an edge.

As for the part I emphasized with italics, I've no problem to accept that. You seem to be thinking that I'm arguing in favour of the Custodes, when I'm in fact arguing for the Grey Knights.

Brother Coa wrote:"Generally, the Custodes are larger and more powerful than Space Marines..."

Ah, this quote again. Perhaps you should read the part just after it, you know, that part that says only a fool would bet on either in the outcome of such a duel. They're pretty evenly matched, the Custodes are fencers, the Space Marines are Cage Fighters, roughly equal in terms of ability.

"Originally, they were equipped with the best power armour of the age, and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions. Equipment which was characteristic of the Custodes would influence the equipment of the later Grey Knights. After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour, and their traditional colour of red was changed to black."

/Custodian discussion

A few key points we have here. Firstly, it says "of the age". That was 10,000 years ago. Not only has Power Armour improved since then, but the Grey Knights have the most up-to-date suits made specifically for them. They're quite superior in that department.
The second key point is the fact that they had access to the same equipment as the Space Marine Legions. Grey Knights have their own specialized equipment made specifically for them, such as Force Swords, wrist mounted Storm Bolters, and of course, their copious numbers of elite Terminator Armour.
The Third point is the word "influence". The Custodes influenced the design of Grey Knight gear. That does not make it superior. In fact, it's more likely that improvements were made, and then there's the general advance of the technology over the time-line.
Then we have the part that says that Custodes have abandoned their armour. Their armour may be in states of disrepair, or lost.
In addition, the Grey Knights have access to all the more modern pieces of Space Marine tech, which the Custodes do not.

I hinted at it a few posts back, but if anyone has read A Thousand Sons, they may have noticed Custodes dying in droves to Thousand Sons psychic powers. Yes, that's right, Custodes are extremely vulnerable to psykers, just like any Space Marine. ALL Grey Knights are highly accomplished battle psykers, it's a potent weapon against the Daemonic. That brings me on to the point that Grey Knights are able to use their immense psychic abilities to boost their attributes, and even use their powers in conjunction with each other through the Aegis. That means they can be stronger and faster, strengthen their armour, and increase the power of their attacks.

Then there's the point about brotherhood. Custodes do not work together, they do not coordinate as squads, they are not battlefield soldiers. They're highly individual, and work better as body guards and assassins. The Grey Knights are the opposite. They likely work together more than conventional Marines due to the enemies they face and the advantage of the Aegis network. To argue that Grey Knights are at a disadvantage is moronic, and reeks of desperation more than reasoning.

Its fun to watch other people ignore the proof presented in front of them, when you are not invested in the argument.

Here is what is happening, I've noticed Coa doing this in a lot of the threads I've read him respond in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

I'm sure everyone that continues to argue with him also think they will change his mind, because they have all the evidence and are right, which is a form of belief perseverance as well.

Draigo doesn't even have one victory.

Also, I rated him as a 24.

CpatTom wrote:Its fun to watch other people ignore the proof presented in front of them, when you are not invested in the argument.

Here is what is happening, I've noticed Coa doing this in a lot of the threads I've read him respond in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

I'm sure everyone that continues to argue with him also think they will change his mind, because they have all the evidence and are right, which is a form of belief perseverance as well.

So?
Everyone will believe in his opinion when there is no enough evidence to support otherwise.
Just like Science vs. Religion in question: Do God exist?
People will use their own formed opinions, and some will even try to contradict the evidence that goes against them even if the evidence is correct.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:Draigo doesn't even have one victory.

Acralem - "Victory on Acralem saw Draigo acclaimed with the rank of Justicar".
Seems like victory to me + this: "For two centuries Draigo served his Chapter and Emperor with unfailing distinction. He earned honours and glory unsurpassed by any Grey Knight before him, save perhaps Janus himself" - witch indicates that he earn that title in many combats before he was send to Warp. Many combats means many victories since 200 is a long time, and because he returned alive from all of them it's victory for him.

He means in the Warp.
It is nice yo see you not respond to anything put against you, at least you know when to give up.