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Chowderhead wrote:Mad Dok Grotsnik is a SC, and he's not Mary Sue. So, you are wrong.

I didn't say he is Marry Sue, I just said he didn't done anything to even reach Mary Sue level.

Strike one.

Two, In Malleus They refer to deamons as "The Dark Gods"

Just in BL novel? And we all know how reliable they are, just like C.S.Goto and that CC one were SoB fall to Chaos in Hundreds... I am sorry, without codex - nothing ( actually Chaos Gods are refereed as Dark Gods in CSM codex ).

Strike 2 and 3.

Done, Coa. You are wrong on all fronts. Face it.

No, I am right and you are wrong. Unless you can find somethign more valid or start to even read what I was talking you may be writhe once on a while...



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im2randomghgh wrote:
*cough*custodesandtitansandassassins*cough*

And your post a few back, Mortarion is NOTABLY WEAK? With his Nurgle-y goodness he'd probably be the hardest to kill.

But other than that I agree with you on certain parts of your argument.

Also though, can't the CG control the daemonic equivalent of physics in the warp? Wouldn't that mean they could just gravity-squish him?

And FINALLY, I would argue that KD is NOT the greatest daemon killer in the IoM, and that THAT title would go to Inquisitor Lord Hector Rex.

See, even the Tau fan know that...

Custodes wear leather armor and are gak compared to Draigo. Not sure why people put Custodes up on a pedestal. A titan isn't a person, so ignored, and Assassins? Really? They are nothing compared to Draigo.

Also, Rex banished a GD? So what. In Battles of the Space Marines, or whatever it's called, a Captain banishes a GD. It's not as big of a deal as you think it is.


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Also, do you consider the Book that created Vox, the Data Slate, and laid the groundwork for Inquisitor (Written by Dan Abnett) to be gak fluff?

GW has said that BL is canon. If it isn't, it's a "Heretical Tome" and is either edited or marked as such.

And you did say:

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:
So yes, as iproxtaco stated, he's a Special Character. And if you took time to read the damned book, you would realize it said so in his rules.

Which means that SC's are Mary Sue.

So he is really a Mary Sue? Thanks...

Meaning that all SC's are Mary Sue.

Chowderhead wrote:Custodes wear leather armor and are gak compared to Draigo. Not sure why people put Custodes up on a pedestal. A titan isn't a person, so ignored, and Assassins? Really? They are nothing compared to Draigo.

Custodes face palmed Primarchs, they are more stronger and more elite then regular Marines, even Grey Knights.
Titans can vaporize entire cities, and they are basically and AI merged with Princeps so they are in some kind - a person.
Assassins not compared to Draigo? What about the one who killed 2 HLoT and then strike force of how many hundred marines?


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Chowderhead wrote:
GW has said that BL is canon.

C.S.Goto si cannon? Oh what joy...let me grab my MultiLaser then...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chowderhead wrote:
Meaning that all SC's are Mary Sue.

Most of them are, just not gods...and some minor SC.
Lysander is Mary Sue, Mephisto is, Calgar is...

1. Titans aren't people.
2. Draigo has done stuff that an Assassin could only dream of. And I would like a link to where this Assassin, only using a sword and pyschic powers, killed a Marine and HLoTs.

Custodes now are wearing and I quote:

The uniforms of the Custodians are traditional but effective: boots, leather breeches and long black cloaks. Their torsos are naked and corded with tattooed muscle. Their tall, brazen helmets, ominous and all-enclosing, give them a threatening and impersonal appearance; ancient and ornate, the helmets incorporate advanced protective equipment and communicators.

And they haven't gone to battle sine before Draigo became a sperm. So, no, Custodes don't count.


You are using null and void points.


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And no, C.S. Goto's works are Heretical Tomes. So that's another invalid point.

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:There's no evidence that the Emperor or Tzeentch is aiding him.

There is also no evidence to support otherwise, that he don't have help at all from the 3'rd side.

So because GW hasn't said that he doesn't have help from another source, you claim that it means he must. Very well, I say the Emperor was actually Khorne in disguise. Find some fluff that says otherwise.

Khorne doesn't do Disguise, everyone knows that. The Emperor is really Tzeentch in disguise.


And Draigo isn't a Mary Sue. He is a man.

The Proper term is Gary Stu, Larry Stu, or even Marty Stu.


Anyways, I took a Mary Sue test on Draigo, so we could once and for all know whether or not he is:

Got a 35, which is JUST one point below Mary Sue.

Draigo is not a Mary sue. /thread

Chowderhead wrote:Custodes wear leather armor and are gak compared to Draigo. Not sure why people put Custodes up on a pedestal. A titan isn't a person, so ignored, and Assassins? Really? They are nothing compared to Draigo.

Also, Rex banished a GD? So what. In Battles of the Space Marines, or whatever it's called, a Captain banishes a GD. It's not as big of a deal as you think it is.

Ceremonial leather armour, their combat armour was superior to power armour, and 1-v-1 would clusterfeth a GK.

While I admit GK ARE better at Daemon hunting, so what? Custodes are good against everything.

And I am comparing a Custode to a GK, not a run of the mill custode to Kaldor Draigo.

Titans have sentient machine spirits, and a dozen of them can pacify a world.

And an imperial assassin is individually superior to a GK. Not to Kaldor Draigo (though an assassin could down him farily easily-exposed face=vindicare target practice.) they would have died going through what he went through.

I was refuting the part where it was said that GK were the most elite individuals in the IoM.

Chowderhead wrote:1. Titans aren't people. AI count as people + driver count as people
2. Draigo has done stuff that an Assassin could only dream of. And I would like a link to where this Assassin, only using a sword and pyschic powers, killed a Marine and HLoTs. "The first Grand Master was Malcador the Sigillite, regent of Terra.1 In 546.M32, the position was held by Drakan Vangorich who was responsible for the events of The Beheading where he assassinated all the members of the High Lords of Terra after which he escaped to an Assassinorum temple in hiding. A retribution force of Space Marines was dispatched who battled numerous assassins with a single Astartes succeeding in eliminating the traitorous Grand Master." He killed them all in the end, not just 2. What a badass...

Custodes now are wearing and I quote:

The uniforms of the Custodians are traditional but effective: boots, leather breeches and long black cloaks. Their torsos are naked and corded with tattooed muscle. Their tall, brazen helmets, ominous and all-enclosing, give them a threatening and impersonal appearance; ancient and ornate, the helmets incorporate advanced protective equipment and communicators.

And they haven't gone to battle sine before Draigo became a sperm. So, no, Custodes don't count. [color=darkred] The can still kick butt since they are superior to Marine in every way. Just because they didn't go in battle for 10.000 years doesn't mean that grot will kill them in battle [color=darkred]

You are using null and void points.

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Custodes wear leather armor and are gak compared to Draigo. Not sure why people put Custodes up on a pedestal. A titan isn't a person, so ignored, and Assassins? Really? They are nothing compared to Draigo.

Custodes face palmed Primarchs, they are more stronger and more elite then regular Marines, even Grey Knights.

Custodes face palmed Primarchs? What in God's name are you talking about. They are not more elite than Grey Knights until you can prove otherwise.

Titans can vaporize entire cities, and they are basically and AI merged with Princeps so they are in some kind - a person.

A Titan is a machine, not a human, and the pilot is certainly not more powerful than a Grey Knight.

Assassins not compared to Draigo? What about the one who killed 2 HLoT and then strike force of how many hundred marines?

Elaborate. Talos, a single Asartes takes an Assassin apart by himself in Soul Hunter.

Ok, gotcha Random. I disagree, but that's not the topic at hand. We're talking about Draigo, and I would like to thank you for agreeing with me.

Also, Sentience has been banned in the Imperium. It's a limited AI. Like a NPC in a video game.

im2randomghgh wrote:
While I admit GK ARE better at Daemon hunting, so what? Custodes are good against everything.

And I am comparing a Custode to a GK, not a run of the mill custode to Kaldor Draigo.

Titans have sentient machine spirits, and a dozen of them can pacify a world.

And an imperial assassin is individually superior to a GK. Not to Kaldor Draigo (though an assassin could down him farily easily-exposed face=vindicare target practice.) they would have died going through what he went through.

All true....

Coa, that was in M.32. This is M.41.

Also, there were "numerous' Assassins. More than one. And they all died, without killing all the Space Marines, like you said they did. You're being hypocritical now. I would stop.

iproxtaco wrote:They are not more elite than Grey Knights until you can prove otherwise.

There was an entire thread about that. And all agree that Custodes are supriour i nevery way. You were there to I believe...


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Chowderhead wrote:Coa, that was in M.32. This is M.41.

So, he did kill all HLoT.



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Chowderhead wrote:
Also, there were "numerous' Assassins. More than one. And they all died, without killing all the Space Marines, like you said they did. You're being hypocritical now. I would stop.

Only 1 survived

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:They are not more elite than Grey Knights until you can prove otherwise.

There was an entire thread about that. And all agree that Custodes are supriour i nevery way. You were there to I believe...

Draigo > Grey Knights.

We're arguing about Draigo. Stop trying to derail it just because you have been beaten.


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HLoT are old men, Coa. And it never said "One Survived". It said, and I quote: "...with a single Astartes succeeding in eliminating the traitorous Grand Master"

This means that one Astartes killed them all. Not an assassin, an Astartes. It never says that they all died, either. Learn English, it will hep you in the future.

Draigo IS Grey Knight.
And he is Mary Sue.

/thread

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
While I admit GK ARE better at Daemon hunting, so what? Custodes are good against everything.

And I am comparing a Custode to a GK, not a run of the mill custode to Kaldor Draigo.

Titans have sentient machine spirits, and a dozen of them can pacify a world.

And an imperial assassin is individually superior to a GK. Not to Kaldor Draigo (though an assassin could down him farily easily-exposed face=vindicare target practice.) they would have died going through what he went through.

All true....

Grey Knights are good against everything and are a more effective fighting force. The Space Marines in general make better soldiers, it's only on an individual sparring match basis that things sway in the Custode's favour.

Brother Coa wrote:Draigo IS Grey Knight.
And he is Mary Sue.

/thread

Draigo is the best Grey Knight. He's not "Another Grey Knight", like you are suggesting.

Also, thanks for another biased and un-founded claim.

Chowderhead wrote:
HLoT are old men, Coa. And it never said "One Survived". It said, and I quote: "...with a single Astartes succeeding in eliminating the traitorous Grand Master"

This means that one Astartes killed them all. It never says that they all died. Learn English, it will hep you in the future.

Are you an idiot?

"A retribution force of Space Marines..." Space Marines, not Space Marine. "...with a single Astartes succeeding in eliminating the traitorous Grand Master" only 1 was able to survive that and to kill him. "Only a single Space Marine survives the campaign." - 5'th edition rulebook.

You were wrong, again.


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Chowderhead wrote:
Also, thanks for another biased and un-founded claim.

Prove to me that he is not a Mary Sue.
That part is at least proved in the fluff...

Yes. A single Astartes warrior killed the HLoT. That does not imply that everyone else died.

And just because a single Astartes warrior survived a Whole Campaign doesn't mean that they were all killed in one fell swoop.

Chowderhead wrote:Yes. A single Astartes warrior killed the HLoT. That does not imply that everyone else died.

And just because a single Astartes warrior survived a Whole Campaign doesn't mean that they were all killed in one fell swoop.

Now you are making things up. Stop posting things you can't prove.

You want proof that he's not Mary Sue? Here's your fething proof:

Nothing he does Matters. He's a gnat, a fly on the wall that's an annoyance. Everything he does gets turned back in the blink of an eye. That's not Mary Sue, that's Tragic.


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Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Yes. A single Astartes warrior killed the HLoT. That does not imply that everyone else died.

And just because a single Astartes warrior survived a Whole Campaign doesn't mean that they were all killed in one fell swoop.

Now you are making things up. Stop posting things you can't prove.

Really? Because I can't prove that. But neither can you. And my claim is more founded, seeing as how I have a little thing called the English Language at my side.

Chowderhead wrote:You want proof that he's not Mary Sue? Here's your fething proof:

Nothing he does Matters. He's a gnat, a fly on the wall that's an annoyance. Everything he does gets turned back in the blink of an eye. That's not Mary Sue, that's Tragic.

"As a lowly Battle-Brother he banished the Daemon Prince M'kar the Reborn and he has risen steadily through the ranks to become the Grand Master of the most secretive Chapter of Space Marines. Yet ever since his battle with M'kar, Draigo has been cursed to a life within the Warp, doomed to walk within the Realm of Chaos. To remain pure when constantly assailed by Chaos shows such fortitude and personal strength that it is beyond measure. But while Draigo lives, he will prevail and one day, he will return."

Not at all....

"While he Lives" implies that he has to be alive. And if he does something to attract the attention of one the big 4, he's dead.

And so he's strong in mind and body. So what? So is Grotsnik. Is he Mary Sue?

Brother Coa wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:You want proof that he's not Mary Sue? Here's your fething proof:

Nothing he does Matters. He's a gnat, a fly on the wall that's an annoyance. Everything he does gets turned back in the blink of an eye. That's not Mary Sue, that's Tragic.

"As a lowly Battle-Brother he banished the Daemon Prince M'kar the Reborn and he has risen steadily through the ranks to become the Grand Master of the most secretive Chapter of Space Marines. Yet ever since his battle with M'kar, Draigo has been cursed to a life within the Warp, doomed to walk within the Realm of Chaos. To remain pure when constantly assailed by Chaos shows such fortitude and personal strength that it is beyond measure. But while Draigo lives, he will prevail and one day, he will return."

Not at all....

http://www.onlyfiction.net/marysue2.html


Put Draigo's Info in there, see what the Total is.

But "he will prevail and one day, he will return." witch meants that he will return one day and that he will be voctorious at the end. That is not tragic - that is happy ending.

And for the last time: Grotsnik didn't carve the name of his former master in a heart of FALLEN PRIMARCH that turned into DAEMON PRINCE ( of course after tearing his guard into shreds in few seconds then pouncing him in the head ).

I would just like to point out that Valdor looks really cool, more so than any other IoM characters I have seen yet, though it doesn't matter I suppose...



AND their rhinos were cooler



It's all about how pimpin' you look, amiright?

Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

But we have 10.000 guys ready for war at any time

To be honest I don't have a problem with a lot of they Grey Knight fluff. I mainly have 2 issues. First one being how the Grey Knights mind-wipe everyone. It's inconsistent with other fluff, but most importantly, why are they brain washing Space Marines. At one point, the Blood Angels team up with Grey Knights, and Dante agrees to have everyone mind wiped about it. I can understand doing that to guardsman and the regular populace, but I don't have any understanding of why they would want to do that to a Space Marine.

And the other issue I have, is where he carves the name into the Deamon Prince Mortarions heart. That is just silly. A Space Marine that was only about a 100 years old, managed to carve a name into the heart into Deamon Primarch.

BSent wrote:To be honest I don't have a problem with a lot of they Grey Knight fluff. I mainly have 2 issues. First one being how the Grey Knights mind-wipe everyone. It's inconsistent with other fluff, but most importantly, why are they brain washing Space Marines. At one point, the Blood Angels team up with Grey Knights, and Dante agrees to have everyone mind wiped about it. I can understand doing that to guardsman and the regular populace, but I don't have any understanding of why they would want to do that to a Space Marine.

To Grey Knight it's all the same. They would kill them but Space Marines are to hard to produce so they wipe them instead.

And the other issue I have, is where he carves the name into the Deamon Prince Mortarions heart. That is just silly. A Space Marine that was only about a 100 years old, managed to carve a name into the heart into Deamon Primarch.

*cough* Mary Sue *cough *

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Oh yeah? Well.... do you have, um...... really cool.......super space ships? No, I didn't think so. *smug*

But we have 10.000 guys ready for war at any time

Obliterated from orbit.
/discussion.