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To me painting does 2 things.
1.It adds definition to the model. People buy overly expensive models then leave em grey, what's the point you cannot see the "fantastic sculpt". well maybe you can, but you can't from the other side of the table.
2. It adds to the ease of gaming for your opponent. I'm sure you know what your mountain of grey is, I'm also pretty sure your opponent doesn't, especially from the other side of the table. If you play me and i don't have a scheme to tie the squads type to, i'm pretty sure you will get sick of me asking "what's that again".

Paint your minis or not. It is up to you. Just don't expect me to remember which squad is which without some kind of marker, colour symbol ect.

I think the most amusing post was the one saying "why spend $10 on paints , i want to spend my money on beer or girls",all the while failing to realise that $10 is nothing when it comes to the cost of the miniatures. Lots more beer there, hero

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

I'm starting to wonder if youre to busy obsessing over other peoples "junk" to find the time to pick up a brush. The whole thing is pretty lame.

So is the assumption that the only reason people don't paint is lying about time or lack of skill.

Squidmanlolz wrote:If you don't think you can paint well, try. I painted all 3,000 points of my IG within a year whilst working a job and attending school full time. A few months after finishing them off, I realized the improvements I had made in painting, stripped the entire force and began again. No matter how bad you are, you will improve, you cannot ruin a model with paint. If you don't like a model's paint job, work on improving your painting skills, strip the model and start again.

This is it right here. I have known many people (including myself) who started off really terrible painters, who have improved and now make great stuff. Try it.

GBL wrote:Ive seen it work fine. Especially in a game that asks you to assume your conversions are at the same height as the miniature GW makes for the purposes of LOS.

Which game is that?

but i would hope that people show due respect to their unknown potential opponents, who may not like unpainted models by using a $17 spray can on an army they have just paid $300+ for. .

So a, say, solid green army is preferable to a solid grey one...?

GBL wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

A gorgeous mini deserves to be painted. The only shame is leaving it alone.

Also, not trying a game because someone on the internet likes it. Shallow much?

Absolutely not. I've been thinking about trying because a lot of people on the Internet like it. One of my hang ups was the awesome sculpts and the knowledge that I'd have to pay to get them painted. I've seen quite a few Infinity players talk about how awesome the sculpts are and how they must be painted to a high quality. That kind of link between modeling and gaming I don't want.

Squidmanlolz wrote:If you don't think you can paint well, try. I painted all 3,000 points of my IG within a year whilst working a job and attending school full time. A few months after finishing them off, I realized the improvements I had made in painting, stripped the entire force and began again. No matter how bad you are, you will improve, you cannot ruin a model with paint. If you don't like a model's paint job, work on improving your painting skills, strip the model and start again.

I. Don't. Like. Painting.
It's not about the level of skill I have - I'm comfortable with it. I can't paint well enough to do figures like most Infinity models justice, and I'll have to send my Sedition Wars models off to get painted (they got me with the Serenity crew) but I can paint to a tabletop standard.
I just dislike doing so. It's not fun. "Practicing" won't make it fun. I've tried.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GBL wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:If you don't think you can paint well, try. I painted all 3,000 points of my IG within a year whilst working a job and attending school full time. A few months after finishing them off, I realized the improvements I had made in painting, stripped the entire force and began again. No matter how bad you are, you will improve, you cannot ruin a model with paint. If you don't like a model's paint job, work on improving your painting skills, strip the model and start again.

This is it right here. I have known many people (including myself) who started off really terrible painters, who have improved and now make great stuff. Try it.

Why are you assuming that the only roadblock is skill level?

rigeld2 wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

I'm starting to wonder if youre to busy obsessing over other peoples "junk" to find the time to pick up a brush. The whole thing is pretty lame.

So is the assumption that the only reason people don't paint is lying about time or lack of skill.

I make no assumptions. To each his own. If you don't want to paint minis then don't, but don't cry when an "elitist" won't play a game with you either. My comment was based on your obsession over kicking people in their coin purse. There's really no comparison between the 2. I bought a Chaos Warhound a few years ago. It turned out to be a much larger project than I could handle at the time. I still plugged away at it every single weekend for 6 months. Eventually it made it's way to the bottom of my project list and didn't resurface until I put it up on ebay. As much as that sucked, I would paint 10 of the things before I allowed somebody to kick me in the nuts. It's a lame statement and really makes no sense covering this topic.

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

I'm starting to wonder if youre to busy obsessing over other peoples "junk" to find the time to pick up a brush. The whole thing is pretty lame.

So is the assumption that the only reason people don't paint is lying about time or lack of skill.

I make no assumptions. To each his own. If you don't want to paint minis then don't, but don't cry when an "elitist" won't play a game with you either. My comment was based on your obsession over kicking people in their coin purse. There's really no comparison between the 2. I bought a Chaos Warhound a few years ago. It turned out to be a much larger project than I could handle at the time. I still plugged away at it every single weekend for 6 months. Eventually it made it's way to the bottom of my project list and didn't resurface until I put it up on ebay. As much as that sucked, I would paint 10 of the things before I allowed somebody to kick me in the nuts. It's a lame statement and really makes no sense covering this topic.

It does make sense. It conveys my level of distaste for the activity of painting in a way that any male can understand.
I'm absolutely serious when I describe dislike in that fashion.
I also dislike when I say "I don't like painting." and people keep harping on practice makes perfect, you'll get better, etc.

Bullockist wrote:

I think the most amusing post was the one saying "why spend $10 on paints , i want to spend my money on beer or girls",all the while failing to realise that $10 is nothing when it comes to the cost of the miniatures. Lots more beer there, hero

$10 is a fair amount compared to what I pay for my models actually. I have spent probably $400 between 4k of grey knights, 3k of blood angels, and 3k of space wolves over the last 2 years. And no, while that probably wasnt the best example, to somebody who hates painting, that $10 to paint a couple squads is money completely wasted. While it might only be a 6 pack or a theater ticket, thats money not wasted. I can use that $10 for a great deal of cheap enjoyable things, as opposed to buying paints I dont care about for an activity I find utterly boring and stupid.

rigeld2 wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

I'm starting to wonder if youre to busy obsessing over other peoples "junk" to find the time to pick up a brush. The whole thing is pretty lame.

So is the assumption that the only reason people don't paint is lying about time or lack of skill.

I make no assumptions. To each his own. If you don't want to paint minis then don't, but don't cry when an "elitist" won't play a game with you either. My comment was based on your obsession over kicking people in their coin purse. There's really no comparison between the 2. I bought a Chaos Warhound a few years ago. It turned out to be a much larger project than I could handle at the time. I still plugged away at it every single weekend for 6 months. Eventually it made it's way to the bottom of my project list and didn't resurface until I put it up on ebay. As much as that sucked, I would paint 10 of the things before I allowed somebody to kick me in the nuts. It's a lame statement and really makes no sense covering this topic.

It does make sense. It conveys my level of distaste for the activity of painting in a way that any male can understand.
I'm absolutely serious when I describe dislike in that fashion.
I also dislike when I say "I don't like painting." and people keep harping on practice makes perfect, you'll get better, etc.

So, if I painted your miniatures for you, would I get the chance to kick you in the nads for each mini done? Seems like a fair trade, according to you.

The thing that annoys me when people don't paint their models, is that they THEN claim that models are other types of troops etc, when you cannot tell from the mountain of plastic what is what.

Painting up squads means you can diffentiate what is what ingame relatively easily, without having to ask for army lists or ask the guy what is what.

its not *upsetting* per se, but just makes it easier for both parties involved.

Doctadeth wrote:The thing that annoys me when people don't paint their models, is that they THEN claim that models are other types of troops etc, when you cannot tell from the mountain of plastic what is what.

Painting up squads means you can diffentiate what is what ingame relatively easily, without having to ask for army lists or ask the guy what is what.

its not *upsetting* per se, but just makes it easier for both parties involved.

I never understood this. Can you elaborate?

insaniak wrote:

GBL wrote:Ive seen it work fine. Especially in a game that asks you to assume your conversions are at the same height as the miniature GW makes for the purposes of LOS.

Which game is that?

Isnt that how 40k 5th edition got around those people converting all their minis into prone positions?

Tomorrows war kind of blasted me off the 40k map, i havent touched it in ages.

insaniak wrote:

but i would hope that people show due respect to their unknown potential opponents, who may not like unpainted models by using a $17 spray can on an army they have just paid $300+ for. .

So a, say, solid green army is preferable to a solid grey one...?

Firstly, yes. A matt finish makes it much easier to discern detail at range. It becomes crisper.

But also it shows an attempt. and after that first hurdle is crossed, it is very simple to slowly add details.

Absolutely not. I've been thinking about trying because a lot of people on the Internet like it. One of my hang ups was the awesome sculpts and the knowledge that I'd have to pay to get them painted. I've seen quite a few Infinity players talk about how awesome the sculpts are and how they must be painted to a high quality. That kind of link between modeling and gaming I don't want.

This is interesting. (and i think the only way to stop this cyclical argument)

Why play any tabletop game with miniatures involved, if you dont like modelling and painting?

For myself i can see only a few motives for involving ones self in games like 40k.
1. Collecting and Displaying the miniatures which you also play with.
2. Converting and painting miniatures which you also play with.

But if you dont like to either buy minis with paint jobs or paint them yourself, what is the motive for getting into 40k rather than say Starcraft or Total War? Or Board games and Wargames like battletech where minis are required only for clarification in tournaments. and the rulebook specifically states you can use bottle caps or whatever? There are also printable games and lego game where the only investment is a laser printer or a box of reusable legos?

I am not trying to be insulting, i am genuinely curious as to what 40k or fantasy offers compared to other alternatives, that would make you overlook such a large component. This is seriously alien to me, i have been playing for close on 12 years now and i have never known anyone who didnt at least want to paint their minis, and i have only rarely played anyone with bare plastic/metal (and those people were generally snail painters on a ten year crusade to paint their first armies).

infinite_array wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:The most upsetting thing is people who don't paint their Infinity models. Every model in the line is gorgeous and deserves a paint job to match. Besides, you only need to field around eight models... that's a week's worth of painting, a month if you only paint a few hours a week.

And I'll give you the same response.
I'll kick you in the junk once for each mini I paint, deal? We'll both get about the same level of enjoyment.
It doesn't matter how gorgeous the models are - in fact I'll likely never try the game now because of what you said.
My painting will never be that good - just like my skill at playing the cello won't ever be that good.
If my paint job ruins a "gorgeous model" that deserves a gorgeous paint job, I'll just refuse to sully them.

I'm starting to wonder if youre to busy obsessing over other peoples "junk" to find the time to pick up a brush. The whole thing is pretty lame.

So is the assumption that the only reason people don't paint is lying about time or lack of skill.

I make no assumptions. To each his own. If you don't want to paint minis then don't, but don't cry when an "elitist" won't play a game with you either. My comment was based on your obsession over kicking people in their coin purse. There's really no comparison between the 2. I bought a Chaos Warhound a few years ago. It turned out to be a much larger project than I could handle at the time. I still plugged away at it every single weekend for 6 months. Eventually it made it's way to the bottom of my project list and didn't resurface until I put it up on ebay. As much as that sucked, I would paint 10 of the things before I allowed somebody to kick me in the nuts. It's a lame statement and really makes no sense covering this topic.

It does make sense. It conveys my level of distaste for the activity of painting in a way that any male can understand.
I'm absolutely serious when I describe dislike in that fashion.
I also dislike when I say "I don't like painting." and people keep harping on practice makes perfect, you'll get better, etc.

So, if I painted your miniatures for you, would I get the chance to kick you in the nads for each mini done? Seems like a fair trade, according to you.

Here, here.

The way I took the statement you can kick him once per mini.

inquisitorlewis wrote:
Here, here.

The way I took the statement you can kick him once per mini.

And apparently he plays nids. Hell, all I'd need is an airbrush, some washes, and a good set of cleats!

GBL wrote:
I have the respect to put in the minimum effort of assembling undercoating and attempting to paint an army before expecting someone at a game club or store to face me in a pick up game.

Now i dont have any ability to "transfer these standards" and if i did i would probably start with more important standards like charitible giving. But thats my opinion on the issue.

Here is where I find your transfer of standards. You assume that to give respect to your opponent you must 'attempt to paint' your miniatures.

How does you painting your miniatures have any bearing on the amount of respect given to an opponent?

This 'respect' you speak of is a standard that you (and some others) have come up with that is in no way reflected by any rule or body outside of tournaments (as covered in my previous post).

My question that you can't understand is why do you feel it neccessary to insist that others perform to your standards in decorating their miniatures? Is an assembled army played by a person who knows the rules and background and enjoys the game not enough? Or more succinctly, why are your standards of a painting minimum of more value than anyone with an assembly minimum?

EDIT

GBL wrote: But if you dont like to either buy minis with paint jobs or paint them yourself, what is the motive for getting into 40k rather than say Starcraft or Total War? Or Board games and Wargames like battletech where minis are required only for clarification in tournaments. and the rulebook specifically states you can use bottle caps or whatever? There are also printable games and lego game where the only investment is a laser printer or a box of reusable legos?

Um, because they like the fluff/rules/models/meta/conventions/thematics/crowd/hobby?

Eidolon wrote:

Doctadeth wrote:The thing that annoys me when people don't paint their models, is that they THEN claim that models are other types of troops etc, when you cannot tell from the mountain of plastic what is what.

Painting up squads means you can diffentiate what is what ingame relatively easily, without having to ask for army lists or ask the guy what is what.

its not *upsetting* per se, but just makes it easier for both parties involved.

I never understood this. Can you elaborate?

I can.

I know a nid player and a sisters of battle player.

The sisters player had not painted more than a couple of dudes.

The nid player would complain, because he couldnt tell the difference between the models. No way to differentiate between celestians and regulars, and the sisters player was proxying different special weapons, and when he was told that "the storm bolter is a flamer" he wouldnt be able to tell which of the sisters had the storm bolter. It was a pretty big deal, and he believes it lost him a lot of games.

So i can understand where the parent poster was coming from

hotsauceman1 wrote:Yeah, But when you put that nice, awesome posed model on the table on painted there is no detail, it looks indistinguishable from other models.

Different people have different personalities, hence different preferences.

There was a poll by yakface, on why people got into warhammer.

painting wasnt the top choice.

There were

Gaming
Collecting
Socializing
Modelling

and among others.

Oddly enough, one of the GW higher ups confessed that 2/3s of the people who buy their product didn't even play their games. Apparently, modelling and painting is the main selling point for GW models.

Eidolon wrote:

Doctadeth wrote:The thing that annoys me when people don't paint their models, is that they THEN claim that models are other types of troops etc, when you cannot tell from the mountain of plastic what is what.

Painting up squads means you can diffentiate what is what ingame relatively easily, without having to ask for army lists or ask the guy what is what.

its not *upsetting* per se, but just makes it easier for both parties involved.

I never understood this. Can you elaborate?

He's basically agreeing with what i stated earlier. Painting helps stop confusion in the game,as well as helping to hinder sadO's cheating.
As well as being visually stimulating, lets face it we like to look at brightly coloured things, that's the reason why pokies are not grey.it applies in gaming too.

I ,myself used to hate painting, probably not as much as Mr "KICK ME IN THE NUTS NOW", probably more like kick me in the head level of dislike.
Thing is, i started warmachine and thought, i'm not using unpainted mini's this time, and now i have almost half an army painted.
If you played WM i'd say just paint 1 badly a week, and soon you will be done . I did this (well 2-3 a week) but you get the idea, now i like painting, enjoy it and am actually getting better.
Trouble is with 40k this isn't really an option.

Eidolon, you seem very invested in this argumen..er...discussion, maybe it is time you picked up a paintbrush. Invest $20. $10 for paints and $10 for a 6 pack, and whilst being tipsy at the end you can laugh at your first paint jobs. Then when you finish a squad you can go to the movies as a reward.
Nope , I'm not being facetious at all.

I have 5 armies, and about ~13,000 points of models in my house. Almost all of my models are fully painted, The only ones that arent are the ones I dont ever play with, so maybe 400 points or so. You must have missed the post where I mentioned building a 2k blood angels jumper army AND doing a fairly good job of painting a nid army in the same month years ago. I can run 6 different armies with everything from 3 color slap job iron warriors, to my flesh tearers, where the assault marines have 4 layers of highlights and multiple washes. For about a year I played a game called heavy gear. Its a skirmish scale mech game. There are no painting requirements, and often no wysiwyg requirements either. It was not uncommon for people to show up to tournaments with armies that were still silver, and half them models didnt even have weapons glued on them. I put about 3 hours into each of the models in my army, building up highlights and then applying multiple washes to blend them back down. I have painted armies for people, both as paid work and as 'hey lets just get this guard army painted tonight because theres nothing better to do in January'.

Im not invested into this as someone who doesnt paint. I like to paint, I just have to be in a certain mood to do so. I am invested into this discussion as someone who is generally sick of the 'my way of approaching 40k>your way'.

gunslingerpro wrote:

GBL wrote:
I have the respect to put in the minimum effort of assembling undercoating and attempting to paint an army before expecting someone at a game club or store to face me in a pick up game.

Now i dont have any ability to "transfer these standards" and if i did i would probably start with more important standards like charitible giving. But thats my opinion on the issue.

Here is where I find your transfer of standards. You assume that to give respect to your opponent you must 'attempt to paint' your miniatures.

How does you painting your miniatures have any bearing on the amount of respect given to an opponent?

This 'respect' you speak of is a standard that you (and some others) have come up with that is in no way reflected by any rule or body outside of tournaments (as covered in my previous post).

My question that you can't understand is why do you feel it neccessary to insist that others perform to your standards in decorating their miniatures? Is an assembled army played by a person who knows the rules and background and enjoys the game not enough? Or more succinctly, why are your standards of a painting minimum of more value than anyone with an assembly minimum?

I believe effort should be matched. Societal thing i guess. And its not as if i am asking that people paint well, just that they put in the effort. If the assumption is that armies should be painted (and you very rarely see GW people playing with unpainted armies, and they set the standard for their games, then i guess culturally that should be the aspiration. If someone said "hey come over to my place, we are drinking, bring beer" then you bring beer. If you brought light beer, thats probably ok, but you wouldnt be making friends. If you brought lemonade, you wouldnt be meeting the expectations of the host or the party.

Thats not a good explanation, i know. But i think people should respect those they game with. If you game with people that dont give a crap thats one thing, but people should be able to have the expectation that they will play the "full, proper game" unless otherwise worked out in advance. If everyone else has taken the effort to paint their miniatures, and you dont want to do that, then you have put significantly less effort into your minis than them, and that seems disrespectful.

Sorry if that doesnt answer your question.

why are your standards of a painting minimum of more value than anyone with an assembly minimum

I dont intrinsically think my standards are better than people.

GBL wrote:Isnt that how 40k 5th edition got around those people converting all their minis into prone positions?

Which people?

And no, 40K does not and has never had such a rule.

insaniak wrote:Firstly, yes. A matt finish makes it much easier to discern detail at range. It becomes crisper.

Ah. So now we're also dictating what sort of paint people should use? Do you also refuse to play people who have finished their minis with gloss?

But also it shows an attempt. and after that first hurdle is crossed, it is very simple to slowly add details.

Why do they have to prove to you that they are putting in an effort? Do you hand out merit badges to opponents?

Why play any tabletop game with miniatures involved, if you dont like modelling and painting?

The simple answer is: Because you like the game.

But if you dont like to either buy minis with paint jobs or paint them yourself, what is the motive for getting into 40k rather than say Starcraft or Total War? Or Board games and Wargames like battletech where minis are required only for clarification in tournaments. and the rulebook specifically states you can use bottle caps or whatever? There are also printable games and lego game where the only investment is a laser printer or a box of reusable legos?

The motive would be that none of those games are 40K. Which is important if you happen to enjoy playing 40K.

I wonder what would happen if people said:

"Well, I put complete sprues on the table straight out of the box, because I hate modelling!!"

I wonder what people would say to that? The bottom line is that everything to do with TTgaming is "optional", but to ignore one aspect of the hobby because you don't want to do it is unreasonable. To expect people to take you seriously (within a gaming context is also unreasonable).

Whether people like it or not, the hobby is model, paint, play....whether you outsource the bits you don't like, or struggle through is immaterial, you don't have a complete product until all of those criteria are met.

I'm not going to bore you with analogy, there are so many, but every hobby has multiple facets (layers) which comprise that hobby, take anyone away and you actually have a completely different hobby, or in some cases a hobby that isn't even recognised.

This is getting silly. Silly questions or ones that have already been answered get silly answers.

insaniak wrote:

GBL wrote:Isnt that how 40k 5th edition got around those people converting all their minis into prone positions?

Which people?

And no, 40K does not and has never had such a rule.

Something i thought i had read, but i cant find anything about it on the internet. Doesnt stop people using paper minis. ive seen it done plenty of times, and there are sheets of specific 40k paper minis on the internet available for download.

insaniak wrote:

GBL wrote:Firstly, yes. A matt finish makes it much easier to discern detail at range. It becomes crisper.

Ah. So now we're also dictating what sort of paint people should use? Do you also refuse to play people who have finished their minis with gloss?

Gloss, or anyone using vallejo paints. They are the scum of the earth.

insaniak wrote:

But also it shows an attempt. and after that first hurdle is crossed, it is very simple to slowly add details.

Why do they have to prove to you that they are putting in an effort? Do you hand out merit badges to opponents?

Yes. Any player i see with a painted army recieves the Sergeant Of The Master Sergeants Most Important Person Of The Extreme Sergeants To The Max! badge

insaniak wrote:

Why play any tabletop game with miniatures involved, if you dont like modelling and painting?

The simple answer is: Because you like the game.

A game that can easily be played digitally these days.

Eidolon wrote:I have 5 armies, and about ~13,000 points of models in my house. Almost all of my models are fully painted, The only ones that arent are the ones I dont ever play with, so maybe 400 points or so. You must have missed the post where I mentioned building a 2k blood angels jumper army AND doing a fairly good job of painting a nid army in the same month years ago. I can run 6 different armies with everything from 3 color slap job iron warriors, to my flesh tearers, where the assault marines have 4 layers of highlights and multiple washes. For about a year I played a game called heavy gear. Its a skirmish scale mech game. There are no painting requirements, and often no wysiwyg requirements either. It was not uncommon for people to show up to tournaments with armies that were still silver, and half them models didnt even have weapons glued on them. I put about 3 hours into each of the models in my army, building up highlights and then applying multiple washes to blend them back down. I have painted armies for people, both as paid work and as 'hey lets just get this guard army painted tonight because theres nothing better to do in January'.

Im not invested into this as someone who doesnt paint. I like to paint, I just have to be in a certain mood to do so. I am invested into this discussion as someone who is generally sick of the 'my way of approaching 40k>your way'.

I hope you will accept my apology for my slip up, you seem to have made about 50 posts this discussion. I must have skimmed that one (and not very well at that).

Btw, in regard to the "prone models" discussion. i do remembera time in true LOS where people were making vehicles with lower height and changing models poses to make them shorter.

Sad is all i can say. why are we bagging painters and non painters when we should be hanging gak on people who cheat, bend the rules so they can be KING OF THE LITTLE PLASTIC SPACEMENS...Fekking sad that is.

I paint my space wolves because I have to. Unpainted armies are looked down upon. Besides, I like the results anyway.

Bullockist wrote:

Sad is all i can say. why are we bagging painters and non painters when we should be hanging gak on people who cheat, bend the rules so they can be KING OF THE LITTLE PLASTIC SPACEMENS...Fekking sad that is.

This is a good point. In the past it was unsavory individuals like this that was really frustrating. Not from playing gamers with non painted armies.

GBL wrote: I believe effort should be matched.

And now we reach the logical fallacy. So if you play a Golden Demon winner, you must match his/her efforts or you're showing them disrespect? Do you now see the slippery slop you're on?

If the assumption is that armies should be painted (and you very rarely see GW people playing with unpainted armies, and they set the standard for their games, then i guess culturally that should be the aspiration. If someone said "hey come over to my place, we are drinking, bring beer" then you bring beer. If you brought light beer, thats probably ok, but you wouldnt be making friends. If you brought lemonade, you wouldnt be meeting the expectations of the host or the party.

Who are these mysterious 'GW people'? Are they GW staff? People who play GW games as opposed to other systems? Further, you're analogy is flawed. No one has broken the expectations of the game by not painting their army. They have broken your expectations of what a game of 40k should be. Are you starting to see the difference?

If you game with people that dont give a crap thats one thing, but people should be able to have the expectation that they will play the "full, proper game" unless otherwise worked out in advance.

And here again we fall into a "full, proper game." Please point to me where in the BRB or 6th Ed. it says what a "Full, proper game" is defined as. A gaming group may not agree to the assembled but not painted standard, and that is fine. But unless it is a closed club/tournament, why does your standard preclude any other standard that exists?

@GBL

Do you walk around asking people to be in their perfect BMI, Fashion Attire, education?

If not, why do you do so in a game?

Let people enjoy why they are in the game for....

I paint my stuff to a "looks decent from three feet away" standard, and I seldom field miniatures that aren't completed. But I get that my opponent might have other priorities, and I've no problem if I'm facing a tableful of silver and grey (though I might ask "Who's that guy?" a lot more often). Trying to hector or shame someone into painting doesn't seem very productive. Also, painting standard does not correspond to player quality one way or the other. I've played twerps with gorgeous armies and great players who haven't put the arms on their minis yet.