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Painting isn't fun for me.

I still do it.

Why?

Because I'm a grown-up, and grown-ups know that sometimes we HAVE TO DO STUFF WE DON'T LIKE in order to get to do stuff we do. That's how life works. It's about trade-offs and compromises. You don't get what you want without giving something up first.

I paint to suit myself, not for a golden weenie award. My armies look "ok" at 3 feet (get any closer and the flaws are very apparent. That doesn't matter, as we play at arms' length, not 3-6" ) not brilliant at 3". It is part of my de-stress time. I do it while the wife watches endless home shows, in between my assembling of models and playing the games with them.

I WON'T field an unpainted army - but that's me. I prefer to play against a painted army - but given the choice between playing a guy who knows his rules and has an unpainted army, or playing a twonk with a GD-winning-painted army and no clue as to how it works (happened more often than I wanted it to, and one of the reasons I got out of that game), I'll take the unpainted.

If he's having issues painting (lack of time, inclination, ability, whatever) there ARE WAYS around this. I have plenty of time and have offered to at least to basic paint schemes to their ideas. Others have likewise offered similar "services". Sure, we do it to "enrich" our own part of the "hobby", but I've also noticed that people tend to take more care of, and about the game when they have a painted army, so it ends up "enriching" theirs, as well.

infinite_array wrote:Oddly enough, one of the GW higher ups confessed that 2/3s of the people who buy their product didn't even play their games. Apparently, modelling and painting is the main selling point for GW models.

Or they only counted the ones in GW stores/tournies.

Haveing not actually played the game (other than the demo in store) i would not like to play against an unpainted army. i am spending alot of time modeling and when my stuff arrives painting and cannot imagine running an army that is not atleast painted to a basic level of foundations/base colors. i can understand feilding your WIP cause you want to play and havent finished painting yet but even as a novice i can get a table top paint job in 10-15 min per model (when i was starting a skaven army). take 2 hrs a week while watching TV or whatever and just do it, you can get 10 done to a basic level in that time and i think you would be much happier with your own army not to mention making the over all battlefield look and feel more epic.

infinite_array wrote:So, if I painted your miniatures for you, would I get the chance to kick you in the nads for each mini done? Seems like a fair trade, according to you.

No. I'm not the one asking you to do something you don't enjoy.
Your side is saying that there's no reason not to as its part of "The Hobby".
I don't see "The Hobby" as this one thing that has no separate parts.
I play 40k. I model 40k. I will rarely paint 40k. Apparently that means I'm disrespecting my opponents and ignoring a third of the reason to play 40k.

Do you mock the people who collect and paint/model but don't play? Do they deserve less respect?

It's not about a level of respect. I respect tons of people who think differently than I do.
Apparently, I don't deserve the same level of respect back simply because I dislike painting.

And with that I'm out for a while - plane plus conference. I'll try to make it back and read responses.

The guy who just collects/paints and doesn't play isn't impacting on anyone else, where if you game your army is impacting on the other player's enjoyment.

Difficulty in trying to pick out special weapons, attached special characters etc does have an advrse impact on your opponent. Looking at 20 grey models of similar size and pose and trying to pick work out whcih squad has the flamer and which the melta gun is far more difficult than if the units are painted when looking from across the table. Where squads cross-over each other a lack of distinguishing marks, even just painted bases, does allow for shenanigans whether inadvertant or not.

WYSIWYG models, easily seen weapon options, special characters and squad deliniation should be a minimum requirement. If someone wants to occassionally proxy a unit to try it out in an otherwise marked out army then fine. I had no problems with someone running 3 wraiths and having 2 empty 40mm bases for the other 2 in the squad because the army was otherwise easiyl discernable and it was clear what those bases were.

Painting is one way of meeting these basics, buth others are possible such as marking the bases differently etc. I prefer games against painted armies but as long as I don't struggle due to know being able to discern units then I'm generally ok.

chromedog wrote:I do it while the wife watches endless home shows

Oh man, this right here. While my fiancee is watching the stuff she likes, I get rather a lot of painting done.

A person could make the case for not taking their minis out of the box by saying they don't like to glue or file things, and then placing their boxes on the table and playing the game.

As somebody mentioned earlier, dawn of war gives people the option to play 40k without the need to paint.

I would never look down on somebody's painted army, I would always respect the fact they gave it a go. Heck, I'm half tempted to PM people and get them to send me their armies so I can paint them for them!

Here's a story for you: Some years back I took 2 painted armies to a club for a few games and to show people how easy it was to paint your force. One guy (who never bothered to paint anything) had the cheek to say that my armies lacked powerful units/correct build!

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:A person could make the case for not taking their minis out of the box by saying they don't like to glue or file things, and then placing their boxes on the table and playing the game.

Yes, you certainly can take the argument (and most arguments, for that matter) to ridiculous extremes.

Of course, then the issue becomes whether or not there is any value in the discussion continuing past that point.

Lets put this in the perspective of different game. DnD should work.

Some people play for the story, others for the combat. some for both. none of them are playing "wrong" now when the combat people try to convince the story people that they should not bother with their beautifully crafted back stories because, thats wrong. equally so, the story people have no right to try and force the combat people to come up with back stories for their characters. and the people who play for both should not try to force others into that playstyle either.

I started playing 5th about a year and a half ago. i have only one model i consider fully painted. everything else is in various stages from untouched through needs to be finished. sad thing is that the only finished model is my Dakkajet.

to me, the hobby is about the game first, models second. if my mass of partially or completely unpainted models ruins your day to the point you have to (insert expletive) about it, dont play me. I would rather play a fun game against an army that is only half assembled than play a (insert expletive) game against a "perfectly painted" army. that said, if you are serious about playing the game, at least have a plan to purchase the models you are using.

as for the lack of unit separations with unpainted models, (or even painted models because not all armies HAVE unit designations, and even the ones that do can be confusing) if it might be an issue, place a length of visible string, paper, whatever non-terrain thing you have available between the units until they are far enough apart to tell.

Personally, all my armies are painted, or in the process of being painted. I don't see the point in spending a lot of money on expensive toy soliders and then not giving them your best shot to make them look pukka.

I am more of a player than painter. I paint because I feel I have to in order to make my models look more suitable for the table top. I find painting a chore, time consuming, energy draining and also slightly boring. I can probably paint for 2-3 days straight and then I get fed up and won't do anything for probably a week.

However, I am not one of these folks who have a stomp if models are not painted. On the table top painted models work just as good as none painted and serve exactly the same purpose. Just painted models look better than a field of grey plastic.

I agree with the posts that say they respect anyone who has at least had a go at painting their army, regardless of standard. Equally though if someone doesnt want to you can't force them, it's their time and money. I do love a game with fully pained armies though, nothing quite like it...

redbristles wrote:I agree with the posts that say they respect anyone who has at least had a go at painting their army, regardless of standard. Equally though if someone doesnt want to you can't force them, it's their time and money. I do love a game with fully pained armies though, nothing quite like it...

Really, I think this sentiment would probably apply to 98% of people who play the game.

In all honest, there seems to be a lot of quite belligerent sounding posts being made, but I don't think anyone has said either:
a ) they refuse to play an unpainted army
b ) they prefer to play against unpainted armies

I think painting is part of the hobby only if you want it to be.

As an example: Warmachine / Hordes, you are clearly not required to paint your armies. You can do it if you feel the need to. I play WMHD, and like using painted armies as it makes the game feel more epic, grand, etc. However, I have no issues playing against a unpainted army. I don't even mind if someone just primes their army a solid color as that way its easy to tell models apart in their army.

For 40k/WFB: Again, if you want to paint awesome I will enjoy playing my fully painted armies against yours. If you don't paint I will happily play you in a giggle game. However, if you want to goto a tournment, paint your stuff to at least 3 colors and an attempt at a consistent basing scheme. If your playing in a "league" you should try to do the same. However am I going to not play or give someone a hard time either way: no. I will be more likely to play the guy with a painted army vs a non painted one if I don't know the opponents and its pick up games.

There is 1 reason for painted armies I enjoy: I can clearly see weapon options better. Examples: force weapons, power klaws, plasma, etc are easier ot pick out from across the table when painted differently then a fully primed model in a sold color.

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:Lets put this in the perspective of different game. DnD should work.

Some people play for the story, others for the combat. some for both. none of them are playing "wrong" now when the combat people try to convince the story people that they should not bother with their beautifully crafted back stories because, thats wrong. equally so, the story people have no right to try and force the combat people to come up with back stories for their characters. and the people who play for both should not try to force others into that playstyle either.

I think the D&D analogy is very good, but not the way you use it. I do D&D and other systems. People who don't paint anything (I'm talking gray plastic), and at the other end people who throw a force together and don't know the rules are like people who want to RP or want to fight without the other. I have met many players who don't want to RP at all and don't want to write any background, or those who create a pacifist caricteror one with no combat skills at all. There are places for both and I don't think that this is the place. Want to not paint? There are plenty of games with pre-painted models, or play with your friends, but I don't think you should expect others to be happy with a field of gray. Equaly don't go to a game in an FLGS or tourniment with a force you have just thrown together. I do think it lacks respect for your oponent. Just the same as turning up to a D&D group, playing with your phone whilst others are RPing because it dose not interest you, and then when the group walks up to a city gates and are stopped by guards shouting "I roll for initiative".

If your playing with friends at home do whatever the hell you want. Play with bottle caps, decided you don't want a shooting phase because you want to play a CC only game, ban tanks, whatever, but when you play with other people I think you should have a painted force. I personaly think it is rude to use unpainted minis and this whole "don't tell me who to enjoy my hobby" is rubbish. Its like turning up to a cricket match and complaining that you don't like wearing whites and screaming "don't tell me how to dress".

I'm not asking for a GD winning force. I'd be happy with a base coat colour spray, paint the weapons silver and another colour, dip and flock the base. I am not a fast painter but doing that I could do a squad of 10 models in 30 mins with a spray gun.

The argument about people who paint and don't play is also rubbish. It is not the same thing at all.

In all honest, there seems to be a lot of quite belligerent sounding posts being made, but I don't think anyone has said either:
a ) they refuse to play an unpainted army

Well I do. I'm playing unpainted 40k armies in our club, but not Warmachine. Because Warmachine is way easier to paint (less models, no wargear options). As a result of my nagging on this, one guy painted his battle group really fast (he's usually taking time), and other guys are working on it, even though they are the type that never complete their 40k armies. Am I being an asshat and ruining the gaming experience for everybody?

There's also one guy in our club who does not have any interest in painting and physically can't paint (something with really bad eyesight). He just pays someone to paint for him and usually has the most painted force on the table. Not extremely rich guy too, just considerate.

All this talk of junk kicking is making me a little squeamish.
@rigeld2: Be sure to warn me if you are ever gaming in the Sarasota, Florida area. I'll make sure I wear a cup.

Anyway, back to the topic. I am one of those people who actually enjoys all of the aspects of this hobby.
I understand that there are many who do not enjoy the painting part. Since I like painting so much, whenever I play vs an opponent with an unpainted army, I simply offer to paint some of their models for free.
I get my painting fix.
They get painted models.
Works well all around.
I never complain to anyone about unpainted armies, I just offer to help.

I prefer playing fully painted armies on a magnificently built table, complete with terrain and scenery. If possible, adding a smoke machine and a strobe light to help simulate the chaos and anarchy of the battlefield.

However, I am not the best painter. I try to get my stuff painted as quickly as possible, but I suffer from shiny toys syndrome. I am always adding new models to my army and trying out. Sometimes they get painted, sometimes they don't. (don't usually means I don't plan on using ever again). At a minimum, I always primer my models. Black looks better than gray to me. With all that being said, I do try to have my armies at least painted to a base color, weapons, and trim so they look decent from a distance.

Now, for my opponents I prefer painted over unpainted. I prefer real models over proxies. I prefer proxies over vacant bases. Hell, I will even let someone borrow my own stuff if it means I can get a game in.

Mostly, I would rather my opponents bathe and wear deodorant over painting their army.

Rageaholic wrote:I really hate playing with, or against unpainted armies. So many people in my local GW use whatever the latest cheesy combo is with completely unpainted models...grr, it really winds me up. I wish they would go back to the old rules they had where if it wasn't painted you couldn't play with it.

I honestly dont get the not painting them thing. OK you might be a bad painter or lack time, but how can you stand dropping £200+ on models and have them look like crap?

You can make some effort without going overboard, for example we have a grey knights player who has painted his entire army with silver car spray paint. It doesn't look great by any means, but it looks a lot better than grey plastic.

In my opinion if you arent going to make any effort to paint then ypou might as well play with cardboard tokens.

Wow.
I am one of those people who tends to play with half-painted armies, as I have an 18-month old daughter, and I work 6 days a week.
On behalf of all the people out there that have other real-life stuff to deal with, and cannot make painting up their plastic soldiers a main priority, screw you.

If you think everyone should have painted armies, why not paint them for us, or pay to have them painted by a pro?

Also, if you think an entire army sprayed with silver car paint looks better than the gray plastic that at least lets you see details on the model, you must have some bad eyesight.

If anyone thinks this is rude, I would not have been rude at all had this guy not been such an ass right out of the gate.

Well i read the first page and a bit of the last....

Is this not a strategy game(with random elements(the dice)) also? Because this is the only reason i got into the hobby....

Yes i field an unpainted army...i started to paint but im terrible and would rather wait and get somebody else to paint them(my friend so they look good) when they have time, also when i have money. Im not going to buy 2 models, get them commission painted then sit there looking at them.......

At the end of the day its JUST A GAME so get a life and get a gf/bf.... but then im talking to people who are socially inept and the only thing that they can say to others is 'im toughness 4 btw so you need 3's' and this is at a push.

Yes most people, including me would rather play with painted models but some of us would rather play THE GAME its intended for.

Tournament play is different, i would say that its not needed that they are painted but it would be nice if they were(Im not playing in one till i get my army painted). This is done very well with quite alot of points awarded for painting. So that all the elitists will play each other, the further down you get you will generally have less painted models.

That being said you can be competitive without being an elitist but people like me are rare i would say, and that is why i dont enter tournaments till i have painted models as i will be amongst the socially inept( elitist people who been playing for years and think they are better then others for no reason )

Green is Best! wrote: Mostly, I would rather my opponents bathe and wear deodorant over painting their army.

^^ These are they type i refer to and couldn't agree more

oI ImMoRTaL Io wrote:
At the end of the day its JUST A GAME so get a life and get a gf/bf.... but then im talking to people who are socially inept and the only thing that they can say to others is 'im toughness 4 btw so you need 3's' and this is at a push.

Wow. First post of yours I've seen, and you're heading right into the ignored list. I'd clap, but that might not be a good idea with your already inflated ego.

Back on topic, I'm surprised no one's attempted to address this:

chromedog wrote:Painting isn't fun for me.

I still do it.

Why?

Because I'm a grown-up, and grown-ups know that sometimes we HAVE TO DO STUFF WE DON'T LIKE in order to get to do stuff we do. That's how life works. It's about trade-offs and compromises. You don't get what you want without giving something up first.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
As somebody mentioned earlier, dawn of war gives people the option to play 40k without the need to paint.

No, actually, it doesn't.

It gives you the option to play a game in the 40K universe, yes, but it does NOT let you play 40K. The two are completely separate things.

Painting may be a part of the hobby, but it's not a part of the game.

When I'm playing 40k, I came to play 40k. When I'm painting and looking at models, that's what I'm doing. It's extremely elitist for people to say "people who don't paint their models don't deserve to play at all." It's also elitist to say "wow, his army may be completely painted but his build composition sucks." There is no right way and everyone has their own opinions.

However it's perfectly fine for someone to say "I'll only play against painted armies." So long as their statements only concern themselves, and they don't belittle others for having unpainted armies, that's fine. You prefer to only play against painted armies, good for you. Go do that. Don't continue on and start bashing unpainted armies just because of your own personal opinions.

In short: everyone can have their opinions and play who they want to play in whatever way they want to play. However the moment you start forcing your opinion down others throats, then you're a prick.

We just had a tournament this past sunday where, after a year of playing at the store, the owner told us all that painting will be graded and will affect your overall score.... that was probably the best thing he could do for us at this juncture... I stayed up until 3 the morning of the tournament in order to have my necron army completely painted... My abilities as a gamer to this point showed in my inability to even place up to this point... the fact that I had a painted army and played nothing but painted armies completely rebooted my morale... I just went all-in with my strategies and came out on top 2-3 games and even then the only guy who beat me ended up getting first place, not even because he got extra points for having a well painted army... the guy who got the best painting score took 4th place, the 3rd place winner got second best painted, and I shared third best painted even though I won 2nd overall...

I give you this story as an example that having all painted armies completely improved the mood of everyone there... their minds actually got inside the game and experienced battles from the view of your warriors in their epic struggle to crush their enemies and exert dominance... I have become confident that the only way to do this truly is with painted models...
you dont have to paint if you dont want to, but I have two things in retort to that... 1) you are sacrificing alot by not doing so. 2) you only get better with practice... not everyone can be pablo picasso or leonardo da vinci on their first model... keep trying and you may amaze yourself... and if you really feel like you need a morale boost, stop into ebay and check out the armies people are trying to sell as pro-painted... having the nerve to ask someone for $1600 for 1K sized army of forgeworld red scorpions is one thing, but then trying to sell them as pro-painted for the simple job that was done is laughable...

Food for thought

WarlordRob117 wrote:We just had a tournament this past sunday where, after a year of playing at the store, the owner told us all that painting will be graded and will affect your overall score.... that was probably the best thing he could do for us at this juncture... I stayed up until 3 the morning of the tournament in order to have my necron army completely painted... My abilities as a gamer to this point showed in my inability to even place up to this point... the fact that I had a painted army and played nothing but painted armies completely rebooted my morale... I just went all-in with my strategies and came out on top 2-3 games and even then the only guy who beat me ended up getting first place, not even because he got extra points for having a well painted army... the guy who got the best painting score took 4th place, the 3rd place winner got second best painted, and I shared third best painted even though I won 2nd overall...

I give you this story as an example that having all painted armies completely improved the mood of everyone there... their minds actually got inside the game and experienced battles from the view of your warriors in their epic struggle to crush their enemies and exert dominance... I have become confident that the only way to do this truly is with painted models...
you dont have to paint if you dont want to, but I have two things in retort to that... 1) you are sacrificing alot by not doing so. 2) you only get better with practice... not everyone can be pablo picasso or leonardo da vinci on their first model... keep trying and you may amaze yourself... and if you really feel like you need a morale boost, stop into ebay and check out the armies people are trying to sell as pro-painted... having the nerve to ask someone for $1600 for 1K sized army of forgeworld red scorpions is one thing, but then trying to sell them as pro-painted for the simple job that was done is laughable...

Food for thought

what he said x 10

Wow, this topic comes up monthly, but apparently not all has been said. This has got to be the fastest growing paint or not thread yet!

hotsauceman1 wrote:Ok, So today i went to a warmachine league to see if i like that game and see if anyone is willing to help me learn a little(they did alot)
But i noticed, alot of people still dont have painted armies, and i dont mean models in the army that arent painted, i mean feilds of gray. This is the same at my 40k night.

This is the exact same situation at my FLGS for both PP and GW games. Fields of grey, white and black models. There's rental lockers available and it's not uncommon to see someone open a locker and reveal shelves packed with bare metal Warmachine models.

hotsauceman1 wrote:
But is it too much to ask people at least attempt to paint there armys? I know alot of people dont have the time but i see people buying more and never painting.
Am i asking to much?

Yes, Sort of and No.

Yes,
For some folks, they don't feel the need to paint their armies, or are only interested in the gaming side of the hobby, and no matter what help they receive or encouragement they get they will never get it done. It's their hobby, so be it.

Sort of,
Some folks want to paint, but don't have much time so their armies are in a state of partially painted progress. These are the kinds of folks I'd occasionally play if I looked for pick-up games at the FLGS.

No,
It's not too much to expect from your opponents. If you have no desire to play against unpainted armies then don't do it. Find those who are like minded and play against them, or form your own game group of folks who only want to play painted.

My club always has extra warbands and forces to loan to guests and newbies, but we are a painted-minis-only club and make no apologies for that. We're all grown adults with limited hobby time who love the spectacle of painted armies on good terrain and agree that...

Life's too short to play against unpainted armies.

Eilif wrote:Life's too short to play against unpainted armies.

On the flip side:

Life's too short to worry about playing against painted or unpainted armies.

I can make blanket pithy sayings, too.

Pacific wrote:
In all honest, there seems to be a lot of quite belligerent sounding posts being made, but I don't think anyone has said either:
a ) they refuse to play an unpainted army

I'm saying this.
I might give a game to a newbie or someone whose in-progress, but that's an exception.

I'm perfectly happy to say no-thanks to the gamer who slaps down the same 1200 points of grey plastic they've been using for weeks. I'm in it for the spectacle and the painted toys. Watching my opponent push around grey hordes just isn't going to be fun for me.

The good news is that they grey hoarders seem to be in the majority at my FLGS so they have plenty of people to play against. At the same time, I've never had trouble finding other gamers who would rather play with and against painted minis.

People define the hobby differently, and that's cool, but folks like me shouldn't feel bad about saying no-thanks to gaming against non-painting gamers.

chromedog wrote:
Because I'm a grown-up, and grown-ups know that sometimes we HAVE TO DO STUFF WE DON'T LIKE in order to get to do stuff we do. That's how life works. It's about trade-offs and compromises. You don't get what you want without giving something up first.

Except that Painting isn't something you HAVE TO DO to be able to play.

There's no rule or law or contract or anything saying it's required. This statement is exceedingly outrageous.

Chromedog,
I'm in your corner on this one. I don't like painting either, but I like it more than playing with/against unpained figs.

Unfortunately the "community" standards have changed over time and many of the current crop of players don't see painted figures as an essential part of the game anymore. Many of these folks will never become painters so the option I see is to help those who want help, and then to be selective in choosing your opponents and gaming groups/clubs.

Platuan4th wrote:

Eilif wrote:Life's too short to play against unpainted armies.

On the flip side:

Life's too short to worry about playing against painted or unpainted armies.

I can make blanket pithy sayings, too.

You're absolutely right that it's a pithy (adj pithier, pithiest 1. terse and full of meaning or substance) and blanket (we apply it to our club) statement. It's our philosophy of gaming, and one that we adhere to. We know what we like and that's how we game. Note that I did say that we always provide extra armies/warbands for visitors. We recognize that not everyone has time/money/etc for painted minis, so we provide a way for everyone to participate while keeping the standards that the core members prefer.

We're not hardcore or WAAC players, but we only get a chance to game every other week and we want to spend that time having a laid back game-or two pushing painted toy soldiers* around a nicely landscaped table. What's wrong with that?


*We have no standards for painting quality beyond get a few colors on it.

Eilif wrote:We're not hardcore or WAAC players, but we only get a chance to game every other week and we want to spend that time having a laid back game-or two pushing painted toy soldiers* around a nicely landscaped table. What's wrong with that?

When did I say there was anything wrong with it?

I just probably wouldn't play at your club. Sometimes, I feel like using my armies that aren't fully painted(I have faction ADD due to finding playing the same army week after week boring). I also don't like using other people's models. Since you're a paint only club, my unpainted armies(generally unpainted because I got tired of painting them and moved on to a different army) aren't welcome and thus, I wouldn't be playing.