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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 16:42:34
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Member of the Malleus
Boston, MA
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Therion wrote:It's true, except the same thing happened to most special characters. Mephiston, for instance. Kinda amusingly, a mephy-Draigo fight would be kinda a slapfest for a while until eventually mephy failed a save.
It's not like I exactly think SM captains will be getting powerfist, or anything.....to much risk of getting punked, first. It just makes 2+ save really good.
The Wolf Lord on a TWC with Runic Armor, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Saga of the Bear, Wolftooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman and some Fenrisian Dogs destroys all the Space Marine special characters in the game one on one. Now more than ever.
I can't see that beating Draigo. As soon as you fail a save......bam.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/03 16:43:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 16:47:25
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Jervis Johnson
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Sir_Prometheus wrote:Therion wrote:It's true, except the same thing happened to most special characters. Mephiston, for instance. Kinda amusingly, a mephy-Draigo fight would be kinda a slapfest for a while until eventually mephy failed a save.
It's not like I exactly think SM captains will be getting powerfist, or anything.....to much risk of getting punked, first. It just makes 2+ save really good.
The Wolf Lord on a TWC with Runic Armor, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Saga of the Bear, Wolftooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman and some Fenrisian Dogs destroys all the Space Marine special characters in the game one on one. Now more than ever.
I can't see that beating Draigo. As soon as you fail a save......bam.
The Wolf Lord is immune to instant death (Eternal Warrior)
Draigo has 4 attacks and hits with 3+, wounds on 4+ (3+ if HH is up), and the Wolf gets 2+ saves. The Wolf has 5 attacks and hits with 3+, wounds with 2+, and Draigo gets 3+ saves. Who do you think will win? PS: This isn't a hard one to figure out.
Not to mention the Wolf being cavalry and not only is a lot faster but also has Hammer of Wrath. If Draigo would get the charge in an unlikely scenario, the Wolf Lord has counter-attack. Insult to injury the Thunder Hammer is concussive and will keep Draigo at initiative 1 after the first round untill he is dead.
You don't mess with the sons of Russ. Not even if you're a Ward Marine.
By the way, Mephiston gets roflstomped even faster (in two close combat phases). Werewolves > Vampires.
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This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2012/07/03 17:13:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 17:20:39
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Member of the Malleus
Boston, MA
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Ah, I see it'd the saga of the bear. I don't have the SW codex menmorized, might have helped to mention the eternal warrior bit first time. That's what makes the difference. No need to do out the math.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 17:25:01
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Sad Draigo is no longer a CC beast... unless they decide to Errata the Titansword to not be balls.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 17:26:49
Subject: Re:GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Hey, lets bask in the fact they had the forsight to FAQ everyone the day of the release. Imagine the issues we would have if they waited a month or two if they hadn't FAQed everybody on day 1.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 17:30:07
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Dakka Veteran
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I'm not really sure the Draigo nerf matters. With multiple objectives death stars will be fairly inefficient. A few paladins might be nice, but you'll need much more balanced lists to do well in 6th.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 22:03:45
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.
Also, does a Dreadknight with a sword and a doomfist get +1 attack for wielding two weapons now?
Stoffer wrote:I'm not really sure the Draigo nerf matters. With multiple objectives death stars will be fairly inefficient. A few paladins might be nice, but you'll need much more balanced lists to do well in 6th.
Depends though. It's always been easy to create an objective zone, stacking your objectives as close to each other as possible and then stretching your Paladin death-star around it to claim three or four objectives at once.
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"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 22:05:59
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Focused Fire Warrior
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You cant congo line any more 1 unit can only claim 1 objective
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 22:07:13
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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starraptor wrote:You cant congo line any more 1 unit can only claim 1 objective
Oh, guess I missed that one. That's a major beat with the nerf-stick.
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"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 22:17:25
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Focused Fire Warrior
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Honestly I dont think pally lists are going to do well in anything under redicullsly high point games because of there point costs but what I'm trying to do with my 1850 pt list is have several groups of terminators and 1 pally unit because they are still awsome.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/03 22:18:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 22:27:53
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Guarded Grey Knight Terminator
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A Dread CCW no longer specifies the user must be a walker to gain double strength and it's been deleted from the FAQ. RAW the NDK strikes with Str10 with the fist now. Also, DCCWs and the Nemesis Greatsword aren't Specialist, so again the NDK clearly gets +1A for being armed with two melee weapons.
Paladins are still units of characters, and thus as an elite hammer unit should remain somewhat feasible as they should generate precision strikes with decent reliability.
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One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness, One last blade forged in defiance of fate.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 22:51:41
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Stealthy Kroot Stalker
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Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.
If I recall, the Greatsword still allows rerolls of hit/wounds right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 22:53:23
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Member of the Malleus
Boston, MA
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acekevin8412 wrote:Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.
If I recall, the Greatsword still allows rerolls of hit/wounds right?
No reason to say it doesn't. Hard to see how that beats Str 10 doom fists, though, unless all you're doing is MEQ hunting, and that's a lot to pay for that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 23:30:49
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.
Also, does a Dreadknight with a sword and a doomfist get +1 attack for wielding two weapons now?
DK seemed just as awful as ever in my game last night.
Why take a Dreadknight with a teleporter/incinerator when you could take another Stormraven Gunship?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 23:33:25
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Jervis Johnson
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Why take a Dreadknight with a teleporter/incinerator when you could take another Stormraven Gunship?
A Stormraven with HB, AC and Hurricanes with psybolts is ridiculously expensive but god it throws a massive amount of shots at high strengths. All of it is twin-linked to boot. I think it's a fairly competitive choice now if you use it well and support it from elsewhere with less points intensive units like Warrior Henchmen in Psybacks. Otherwise you'll run the risk of your army being hopelessly small.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/07/03 23:34:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/03 23:35:11
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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acekevin8412 wrote:Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.
If I recall, the Greatsword still allows rerolls of hit/wounds right?
Yeah, it does.
You used to pay 35 points to upgrade your S6 DK to something that could re-roll hits/wounds/armour pen. Not a bad deal. Still expensive, but not too bad.
Now you pay 35 points to downgrade your S10 to S6, with the re-rolls. Definitely too expensive. I've got plenty of stuff in my Grey Knights force that will eat MEQs for breakfast. I want my DK to be hunting monstrous creatures, wraithlords, vehicles, killy independent characters, etc.
On the flipside, does a Nemesis Doomfist still count as a Nemesis Force Weapon? In that, can it still cause ID? I know most things are going to be ID'ed by S10 anyway, but I'm curious... Automatically Appended Next Post: daedalus-templarius wrote:Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.
Also, does a Dreadknight with a sword and a doomfist get +1 attack for wielding two weapons now?
DK seemed just as awful as ever in my game last night.
How so?
daedalus-templarius wrote:Why take a Dreadknight with a teleporter/incinerator when you could take another Stormraven Gunship?
Because I use a Contemptor Dread for my Dreadknight, and it looks awesome. While the Stormraven is ugly. Besides, I prefer to punch things in CC than zoom around shooting them.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/03 23:38:13
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 00:10:27
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Ship's Officer
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Kaldor wrote:
You used to pay 35 points to upgrade your S6 DK to something that could re-roll hits/wounds/armour pen. Not a bad deal. Still expensive, but not too bad.
Now you pay 35 points to downgrade your S10 to S6, with the re-rolls. Definitely too expensive. I've got plenty of stuff in my Grey Knights force that will eat MEQs for breakfast. I want my DK to be hunting monstrous creatures, wraithlords, vehicles, killy independent characters, etc.
On the flipside, does a Nemesis Doomfist still count as a Nemesis Force Weapon? In that, can it still cause ID? I know most things are going to be ID'ed by S10 anyway, but I'm curious...
I mean, if you've got the spare points, you can do both. You lose nothing by having Sword/Doomfist, since neither is a Specialist Weapon, the DK still gets +1A, and can choose which weapon to use in each round of combat. So you can be S10 against vehicles, and S6 with rerolls against infantry. Also, since the DK has Smash (being an MC) all of its attacks are at AP2, including the sword.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 01:20:14
Subject: Re:GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Definitely, but I find that points are always at a premium in my lists (I spend an entire afternoon yesterday trying to trim 180 points out of a list) so that 35 points for the sword is almost always needed somewhere else. I find this to be doubly true on a Dreadknight, since they run the risk of being very expensive paperweights if you're not careful with them.
On another note, how are people feeling about Landraiders now? I think their 'immunity' to S8 weapons has given them a new lease on life. Especially as a Paladin delivery system.
Now, it's expensive as hell. A Landraider loaded with Paladins will run ~800 points, but it's a sure-fire way to deliver a Paladin payload directly where you need it, with an 18" move in the first turn, a 6" move, 6" deploy and 2D6" assault in turn 2. And with a Psybolt upgrade, the Hurricane bolters on a Crusader will be good at dropping flyers.
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"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 01:48:26
Subject: Re:GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Actually, it seems that a DK with a Greatsword can use either the sword or the Doomfist as the primary weapon and still gain +1A for having 2 CCWs.
So you can pick between Str6(7) AP3 with rerolls or Str10 AP2 with no rerolls. You can't do this with the Daemonhammer though which sucks anyway you slice it.
Not to mention the badassery that is the sword. The badass effect should never be discounted Automatically Appended Next Post: Xca|iber wrote:Kaldor wrote:
You used to pay 35 points to upgrade your S6 DK to something that could re-roll hits/wounds/armour pen. Not a bad deal. Still expensive, but not too bad.
Now you pay 35 points to downgrade your S10 to S6, with the re-rolls. Definitely too expensive. I've got plenty of stuff in my Grey Knights force that will eat MEQs for breakfast. I want my DK to be hunting monstrous creatures, wraithlords, vehicles, killy independent characters, etc.
On the flipside, does a Nemesis Doomfist still count as a Nemesis Force Weapon? In that, can it still cause ID? I know most things are going to be ID'ed by S10 anyway, but I'm curious...
I mean, if you've got the spare points, you can do both. You lose nothing by having Sword/Doomfist, since neither is a Specialist Weapon, the DK still gets +1A, and can choose which weapon to use in each round of combat. So you can be S10 against vehicles, and S6 with rerolls against infantry. Also, since the DK has Smash (being an MC) all of its attacks are at AP2, including the sword.
You only get AP2 if you use Smash, otherwise you are just whatever weapon your using's AP.
Smash isn't a static thing, its something you use. And going from 4 attacks to 2 is not the best for killing terminators.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/04 01:50:09
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 02:18:48
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Kaldor wrote:acekevin8412 wrote:Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.
If I recall, the Greatsword still allows rerolls of hit/wounds right?
Yeah, it does.
You used to pay 35 points to upgrade your S6 DK to something that could re-roll hits/wounds/armour pen. Not a bad deal. Still expensive, but not too bad.
Now you pay 35 points to downgrade your S10 to S6, with the re-rolls. Definitely too expensive. I've got plenty of stuff in my Grey Knights force that will eat MEQs for breakfast. I want my DK to be hunting monstrous creatures, wraithlords, vehicles, killy independent characters, etc.
On the flipside, does a Nemesis Doomfist still count as a Nemesis Force Weapon? In that, can it still cause ID? I know most things are going to be ID'ed by S10 anyway, but I'm curious...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
daedalus-templarius wrote:Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.
Also, does a Dreadknight with a sword and a doomfist get +1 attack for wielding two weapons now?
DK seemed just as awful as ever in my game last night.
How so?
daedalus-templarius wrote:Why take a Dreadknight with a teleporter/incinerator when you could take another Stormraven Gunship?
Because I use a Contemptor Dread for my Dreadknight, and it looks awesome. While the Stormraven is ugly. Besides, I prefer to punch things in CC than zoom around shooting them.
DK has never panned out for me in any game, barely ever kills anything even with incinerator, just isn't worth it.
I jump it over into something, it shoots, kills a middling amount, then gets lit up and dies.
While I love the model, it just isn't a cost-effective unit in my eyes; I'd much rather take something else... like a Landraider or a Stormraven, for almost the same amount of points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 02:23:44
Subject: Re:GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Ship's Officer
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Grey Templar wrote: You only get AP2 if you use Smash, otherwise you are just whatever weapon your using's AP. Smash isn't a static thing, its something you use. And going from 4 attacks to 2 is not the best for killing terminators. Reread the first sentence of the Smash special rule. "All of the close combat attacks of a model with this special rule are resolved at AP2... Additionally, when it makes close combat attacks, it can choose to instead make a Smash Attack..."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/04 02:33:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 02:24:42
Subject: Re:GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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With the increase in the amount of Night Fighting there is now it is more survivable.
And you can charge a unit and challenge the PF sergeant. Either way, you don't have to worry about the PF anymore. And PWs are much less scary now, only TH terminators will threaten a DK in combat now and DKs shouldn't be anywhere near them.
I just used a DK for the first time on Sunday and it was awsome. Use the Challenge rules to your advantage, and its 2D6 rerollable(maybe) assault range.
Doomfists got buffed too.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 02:31:31
Subject: Re:GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Grey Templar wrote:You only get AP2 if you use Smash, otherwise you are just whatever weapon your using's AP.
Smash isn't a static thing, its something you use. And going from 4 attacks to 2 is not the best for killing terminators.
Another reason to leave the sword at home then. I mean, I'll still whack a suitable weapon in the beasts fist, because it looks cool, but I'll be making sure my opponent knows it's got two doomfists. Automatically Appended Next Post: daedalus-templarius wrote:DK has never panned out for me in any game, barely ever kills anything even with incinerator, just isn't worth it.
I jump it over into something, it shoots, kills a middling amount, then gets lit up and dies.
While I love the model, it just isn't a cost-effective unit in my eyes; I'd much rather take something else... like a Landraider or a Stormraven, for almost the same amount of points.
Ah, well. I've always used it as a combat model. If it's shooting at something, it's not doing it's job IMO.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/04 02:33:27
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 02:33:46
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Ship's Officer
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Guys, really. Smash passively grants AP2. It's the first sentence in the rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 02:40:43
Subject: Re:GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Dang, must have glossed over that one.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 02:42:58
Subject: Re:GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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hrm... with all these talks of the DK, I feel silly for modeling with a thunder hammer now. What's the point of the hammer now ??? arrg...
Also, with str 10 already, is there really much point in its psychic powers anymore or can it take extra powers somehow?
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+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 02:46:08
Subject: Re:GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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It can be Str7 with the Sword is the point of HH. and in the event of any Str debuffs it may experience.
I wish it could take some of the new powers. Dreadknight with Divination would = Win
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 03:14:24
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller
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I just had a match and used a naked DK with teleporter against orks and it just mopped the floor with them. The fear rule that MCs have makes even better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 03:52:32
Subject: GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!
Some Throne-Forsaken Battlefield on the other side of the Galaxy
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I'm not too familiar with the GK codex, but the new rules seem like they'll mostly make GKs worse.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/07/04 04:12:11
Subject: Re:GK and 6th - Thoughts on how this effects Grey Knights?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Kaldor wrote:Grey Templar wrote:You only get AP2 if you use Smash, otherwise you are just whatever weapon your using's AP.
Smash isn't a static thing, its something you use. And going from 4 attacks to 2 is not the best for killing terminators.
Another reason to leave the sword at home then. I mean, I'll still whack a suitable weapon in the beasts fist, because it looks cool, but I'll be making sure my opponent knows it's got two doomfists.
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daedalus-templarius wrote:DK has never panned out for me in any game, barely ever kills anything even with incinerator, just isn't worth it.
I jump it over into something, it shoots, kills a middling amount, then gets lit up and dies.
While I love the model, it just isn't a cost-effective unit in my eyes; I'd much rather take something else... like a Landraider or a Stormraven, for almost the same amount of points.
Ah, well. I've always used it as a combat model. If it's shooting at something, it's not doing it's job IMO.
Well, I'd certainly like it to be a 'combat' model, but you can't charge after a warp-shunt...
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