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Yeah, if DCA can get Power Axe/Power Sword combo and still get the +1 attack, they'll be an even more dangerous glass cannon unit. With an Inquisitor or Librarian and some Power Axe Crusaders, you'll be able to wipe out pretty much anything.

4 AP3 attacks apiece at WS5, S5 (with Hammerhand), I6, with the choice of increasing that to S6 AP2 at I1, combined with S5 AP2 Crusaders with storm shields, gives a fairly lethal combination.

Joe Mama wrote:You are evil man. Deliciously evil. LOL. Of course, using mostly axes against an enemy means swinging last, so I am not sure sniping in that scenario will be too useful. But axes will help hurt terminators at least...


Don't have my codex here. Is that where it says DCA and Crusaders can have power axes?

Meh, it all just depends. Maybe You're fighting mephiston, and he went before you anyway, who knows?

The basic BRB rule is that any normal, basic power weapon is "as modeled". So, for instance, not the NFW nor Dark Eldar weirdo weapons. But the basic swords that henchmen have, yeah, that's fine. Inquisitors and Techmarines, too.

junk wrote:Challenges with Dreadknights, amazing...

Also, paladins will always send forward the warding stave to answer and deliver challenges.

All this bs about GK getting softer in 6e is patently ridiculous, they are meaner than ever. Overwatching psycannons, Vindicares in emplacements, even more resistant paladins, Psybolting Hurricane ravens zooming around being invincible...

Unfortunately assassins have unique, which means only one per army, even if double force org. They're essentially named dudes. So no 6 vindicare armies.

They are a lot softer dude, for several key reasons.

#1 - The power weapon nerf really hurt them, especially Paladins. They can no longer just move forward and pwn everything in assault. Terminators will cause them horrendous damage, and MegaNobz will eat them.

#2 - Only 1 of the 6 missions is kill point focused. Paladin builds have always struggled in objective missions.

#3 - Suffer the witch hurts.

Overall, I would say they are a lot more balanced.

Paladins are brutal. Since all of them are characters, all their shooting and melee attacks have the potential to precision strike, any of them can make or answer challenges, all of them can LOS each other, and they still put out murderous Overwatch fire with their master crafted storm bolters and psycannons.

Add in that only Eldar, Wolves, and Tyranids can interfere with Hammerhand, that vehicles implode on contact with infantry, and the loss of walking broken units off the board and paladins are still quite solid. Hell, they are probably even tougher to shift than they used to be.

Darklight wrote:
#1 - The power weapon nerf really hurt them, especially Paladins. They can no longer just move forward and pwn everything in assault. Terminators will cause them horrendous damage, and MegaNobz will eat them.

It hurts EVERYONE, not just GK, and GK are tied for the 1st place on the number of Terminators they can take. I've never even known GK to really be that amazing in assault anyway. Sure, Purifier builds are nasty, but still. Shooting is what GK have always been great at. It's what they'll continue to be great at. Personally, I would have always been afraid of other terminators in melee. TH/SS obliterate Paladins.

#2 - Only 1 of the 6 missions is kill point focused. Paladin builds have always struggled in objective missions.

So then take fewer Paladins? Again, different, not worse.

#3 - Suffer the witch hurts.

I'm not sure how this hurts them. Doesn't this only trigger on units targeted? Doesn't affect NFW or Hammerhand then. I suppose if you use the PSAs that they have, maybe.

Overall, I would say they are a lot more balanced.

This I would hope to agree with, though I'm going to wait to see how they play out.

daedalus wrote:

Darklight wrote:
#1 - The power weapon nerf really hurt them, especially Paladins. They can no longer just move forward and pwn everything in assault. Terminators will cause them horrendous damage, and MegaNobz will eat them.

It hurts EVERYONE, not just GK, and GK are tied for the 1st place on the number of Terminators they can take. I've never even known GK to really be that amazing in assault anyway. Sure, Purifier builds are nasty, but still. Shooting is what GK have always been great at. It's what they'll continue to be great at. Personally, I would have always been afraid of other terminators in melee. TH/SS obliterate Paladins.

#2 - Only 1 of the 6 missions is kill point focused. Paladin builds have always struggled in objective missions.

So then take fewer Paladins? Again, different, not worse.

#3 - Suffer the witch hurts.

I'm not sure how this hurts them. Doesn't this only trigger on units targeted? Doesn't affect NFW or Hammerhand then. I suppose if you use the PSAs that they have, maybe.

Overall, I would say they are a lot more balanced.

This I would hope to agree with, though I'm going to wait to see how they play out.

"It hurts EVERYONE, not just GK, and GK are tied for the 1st place on the number of Terminators they can take. I've never even known GK to really be that amazing in assault anyway. Sure, Purifier builds are nasty, but still. Shooting is what GK have always been great at. It's what they'll continue to be great at. Personally, I would have always been afraid of other terminators in melee. TH/SS obliterate Paladins."
TH\SS did not obliterate Paladins in melee. There was usually nothing left of them after the 20-30 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's.

"So then take fewer Paladins? Again, different, not worse."
Smaller units of Paladins are even less effective. The 10 man deathstar in 5th, or 2 combat squaded 5 man mini stars is where the power was.

"I'm not sure how this hurts them. Doesn't this only trigger on units targeted? Doesn't affect NFW or Hammerhand then. I suppose if you use the PSAs that they have, maybe."
I understand Suffer the Witch as a replacement for Psychic Hood. I will re-read the rules on this one, but it is a slight nerf because every army can do it.

Darklight wrote: "It hurts EVERYONE, not just GK, and GK are tied for the 1st place on the number of Terminators they can take. I've never even known GK to really be that amazing in assault anyway. Sure, Purifier builds are nasty, but still. Shooting is what GK have always been great at. It's what they'll continue to be great at. Personally, I would have always been afraid of other terminators in melee. TH/SS obliterate Paladins."
TH\SS did not obliterate Paladins in melee. There was usually nothing left of them after the 20-30 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's.

Paladins are still top-dog. It's just that the margin got smaller, and units became more specialised. Any unit with a whole bunch of power weapon attacks was an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction under 5th edition. Now, they can't handle Terminators so those units need a re-think.

So some of the things that used to be easy meat for Paladins (ie: everything) are now a considerable challenge. Meganob Orks for example: We can try and kill some through ID and number of attacks with Halberds, Swords and Falchions, but they'll be rolling their 2+ save and a lot of them will be striking back. We WONT get our 2+ save, and they'll be ID'ing us as well with their powerklaws. It's not an automatic lose, by any means, but it's a significant risk for something that is such a large part of your army. It's the same for a few other enemy units as well.

The main strength of Paladins was that once they started to gain ground, they'd simply keep taking it. Nothing and no one was going to stop them. Shoot at them, and they'd laugh with 2+ armour, 5++ invuln, 4+ FNP and wound allocation. Assault them and they'd roflstomp you with I6 master-crafted force weapons, and heaven help you if they had a character in there to boost them.

So to make the most use of that ability, you'd plonk them down near the centre of the enemy lines and start wrecking face. Or you'd deliberately stack two or three objectives 12" away from each other and spread the unit out to claim/contest them all.

But that is SO much more risky now. If you run up against a 10 man TH/SS blob, you can be in real trouble. If you run up against a large Meganob blob, you're in real trouble.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A question about the Dreadknight:

Did this bad boy get a solid boost, or what? If I take a greatsword, I still count as having two weapons, and recieve the +1 attack, right? And then I can choose to either use the greatsword profile to attack (re-rolling ALL the things!) or the Doomfist (S10, yes please). Are the greatswords still AP2, or are they AP3 now?

Darklight wrote:TH\SS did not obliterate Paladins in melee. There was usually nothing left of them after the 20-30 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's.

True, but now it will be the other way around, TH/SS will be able to take out Paladins.

Joe Mama wrote:

Darklight wrote:TH\SS did not obliterate Paladins in melee. There was usually nothing left of them after the 20-30 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's.

True, but now it will be the other way around, TH/SS will be able to take out Paladins.

I fail to see how much has changed. Because of Str8 and 3++, TH/SS have always killed even numbers of paladins. But shoot them down to half numbers or so, you'll be able to beat them out. It's mostly the same math.

Take Stave and a few more hammers than before, make sure you positon everything appropirately (and remember look out sirs!, you can try to assign wounds to Draigo, if you want) and you'll probably do even better than before.

Joe Mama wrote:

Darklight wrote:TH\SS did not obliterate Paladins in melee. There was usually nothing left of them after the 20-30 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's.

True, but now it will be the other way around, TH/SS will be able to take out Paladins.

It's not quite that clear cut. Paladins will be dishing out obscene amounts of attacks (anything up to 50 or more, depending on banners, weapon load-out, who assaulted who, counter-attack, characters, etc) maybe wounding on 2's (depending on characters) and it's not impossible for them to drop 5 or 6 TH/SS, leaving them to strike back with 4 or 5 models. Giving the benefit of the doubt to the TH/SS termies, say there's five of them, and they assaulted, so they get 15 attacks, call it 8 hits, 7 wounds, is three dead Paladins after saves? Things get trickier if the TH/SS did not assault, or we factor in things like psychotroke grenades.

It's not a cost effective situation for the Paladins, that's for sure!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:I fail to see how much has changed.

With the changes to power weapons, the number of saves TH/SS makes against Paladins just doubled. That's a pretty big change.

Darklight wrote:

#3 - Suffer the witch hurts.
.

"deny the witch" only works against powers that are targetting you. Since most GK powers are buffs, it doesn't work at all. Also, since every GK unit is a psyker, they all get DTW, always at at least 5+, and often at 4+ (oif there's mastery level 2 character, which is a lot of the common ones)

This is all on TOP of aegis, mind you. It's actually a huge boost to GK overall. We're one of the most psychic-proof armies out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:
With the changes to power weapons, the number of saves TH/SS makes against Paladins just doubled. That's a pretty big change.

I get that, but if you cared, just take more hammers yourself. Except that would be silly, as then you'd be going simo and a lot more of them would live than you. Really, just shoot them more, I've never had much of a problem with this. And like I said, you really can use Draigo to block for you, even in CC! Heck, FNP will work with him against Hammers.

Like I said, it's almost better, not worse.

In regards to flyer defense, torrent of fire from Paladins is going to help with them, isn't it? TL Riflemen @ Str8 plus all the Psycannons in the Pally squads. Someone will have to help me with the math, but if Paladins shift their Mastercrafting points from Halberds/Hammers to the Psycannons, won't each 5 man Paladin squad take at least 2 hull points off the flyers each turn?

A Psyfkeman will get 1.22 6's on average. That's not bad, but it's certainly not going to bring down even on flyer, on average.

Draigo is ap3.....hahaha, this is hillarious. Marnius Calgar and a squad of tactical termies can beet paladins in CC now. I would seriously say paladins are not worth their cost any more as a deathstar, small units would be good maybe. I mean even mega nobz are all CH in the appendix meaning gaz and his mates will slap them silly and can all LOS each other if they want.

Red Corsair wrote:can beet paladins

Seriously though, I can't believe that people were actually fighting terminators with their paladins in melee previously. That's not a risk I would have taken. No, the solution now is to outshoot termies, or take plain GK termies.

Joe Mama wrote:You are evil man. Deliciously evil. LOL. Of course, using mostly axes against an enemy means swinging last, so I am not sure sniping in that scenario will be too useful. But axes will help hurt terminators at least...


Don't have my codex here. Is that where it says DCA and Crusaders can have power axes?

They have Power Weapons, which means you need to model them with either Power Swords(AP3), Power Axes(AP2, +1Str, I1), or Power Mauls(+2Str, AP4)

You have a choice with how they are armed, but it has to be modeled.

Fought some Necrons first time in 6th.

Stormraven is ridiculously awesome with Hurricane Bolters, Assault cannon, and heavy bolter, all shooting psybolts. SO many shots.

Dreadknight is just as hilariously bad as before.

Draigo at AP3 is really dumb.

Tons of psycannons on Paladins is still the best.

'Looks out sir' adds quite a bit of survivability.

Really like the new rules, except that Draigo is AP3; I mean wtf is that. Also told the guy I was playing against I was a king at rolling 1s, he didn't believe me; till I rolled 3 1's to save Draigo against some gauss rifles.

I played lots of games with Draigo Wing in 5th, and one of my regular opponents is a Death Wing expert of many years.
I understand the matchup between Paladins and TH\SS Termies all too well.

In 5th - a unit of 5-10 TH\SS termies would normally get wiped everytime, because of volume of attacks from the Paladin death star.

In 6th - a unit of 5 will usually get wiped everytime, but it starts getting riskier with larger units. Full Deathwing is 99.9% auto loose
for Draigo Wing in 6th. It was bad in 5th as well, but winnable if the stars were aligned.

Besides the above, it's not just TH\SS termies now. ANY terminator unit with fists are a major threat in assault. Yes, shooting the termies
before they get to you is the best strategy (it was in 5th as well). It doesn't always work out though, you will often find yourself in assault regardless.

Meganobz are going to be a MAJOR problem for Draigo Wing in 6th. The problem is, the Ork player can take a unit of 10 and mech them
up, and it is not obsence in points. You may or may not be able to shoot them up before they get to you. And multiple, large units of Boyz
are a problem now as well, because there are no more no-retreat fearless wounds.

Besides these matchups, the biggest problem in 6th, as I mentioned above, are the missions. Draigo Wing is actually not strong in
objective based missions. And objective based missions are what you are going to be playing almost all the time.

This may be a YMDC question, but it's GK based so...

Psychic 'blessings' that target the psyker: How does that interact with Brotherhood of Psykers?

Hypothetically If you were to use the buff which allows the psyker to reroll all hits wounds and saves on a unit with brotherhood of psykers, does it then affect all of them?

junk wrote:This may be a YMDC question, but it's GK based so...

Psychic 'blessings' that target the psyker: How does that interact with Brotherhood of Psykers?

Hypothetically If you were to use the buff which allows the psyker to reroll all hits wounds and saves on a unit with brotherhood of psykers, does it then affect all of them?

I don't think it's possible for a Brotherhood of Psykers to use the new powers, so I can't see how this would ever come up?

Im slightly confused with the psychic powers as it states in the rule book that if a psyker knows specific powers then he uses them if not he can choose from any discipline, how does this work with the librarian who has to pay 5pts for each power?

Also the new rules for force weapons, do the rules for them in the GK codex still count on top of the main rules, like +2 I and +1 to inv saves etc.

Scottiebhoy wrote:Im slightly confused with the psychic powers as it states in the rule book that if a psyker knows specific powers then he uses them if not he can choose from any discipline, how does this work with the librarian who has to pay 5pts for each power?

A librarian can either buy his powers from the codex, or generate two powers from the book. Or three powers if he upgrades to mastery level three.

Also the new rules for force weapons, do the rules for them in the GK codex still count on top of the main rules, like +2 I and +1 to inv saves etc.

The rules are in the rulebook. They state if a force weapon has it's own special rules, then it is AP3. So halberds, falchions and swords are all AP3. Hammers still count as thunderhammers, and are AP2.

Thanks for clearing that up with the Librarian. So GK termies are only allowed to use HH.

Ive read what it said in the rulebook, but say a Halberd in the GK codex says it confers +2 Init, but then in the rulebook its states its unwieldy with +1 S AP2 as halberds are classed as force axes.
Sorry if im being dense, just trying to get my head round it

Scottiebhoy wrote:Thanks for clearing that up with the Librarian. So GK termies are only allowed to use HH.

Ive read what it said in the rulebook, but say a Halberd in the GK codex says it confers +2 Init, but then in the rulebook its states its unwieldy with +1 S AP2 as halberds are classed as force axes.
Sorry if im being dense, just trying to get my head round it

There's another part in the same section. It say's that any weapon which has it's own rules, counts as an 'unusual force weapon' and has AP3 in addition to any other rules.

So Halberds, because they have a special rule, count as an unusual weapon, and are AP3.

Ive got you, being blind. thanks again

Darklight wrote:I played lots of games with Draigo Wing in 5th, and one of my regular opponents is a Death Wing expert of many years.
I understand the matchup between Paladins and TH\SS Termies all too well.

In 5th - a unit of 5-10 TH\SS termies would normally get wiped everytime, because of volume of attacks from the Paladin death star.

In 6th - a unit of 5 will usually get wiped everytime, but it starts getting riskier with larger units. Full Deathwing is 99.9% auto loose
for Draigo Wing in 6th. It was bad in 5th as well, but winnable if the stars were aligned.

Besides the above, it's not just TH\SS termies now. ANY terminator unit with fists are a major threat in assault. Yes, shooting the termies
before they get to you is the best strategy (it was in 5th as well). It doesn't always work out though, you will often find yourself in assault regardless.

Meganobz are going to be a MAJOR problem for Draigo Wing in 6th. The problem is, the Ork player can take a unit of 10 and mech them
up, and it is not obsence in points. You may or may not be able to shoot them up before they get to you. And multiple, large units of Boyz
are a problem now as well, because there are no more no-retreat fearless wounds.

Besides these matchups, the biggest problem in 6th, as I mentioned above, are the missions. Draigo Wing is actually not strong in
objective based missions. And objective based missions are what you are going to be playing almost all the time.

You're basically whining that one specific build that was overly dominant is now slightly less dominant.

Did Draigo-wing basically automatically win any game that kill points dependent? Yes. Will that mission type be a little rarer? Hopefully.

Are Paladins less effective overall? Maybe....like a tiny bit. Not really.

Did TH/SS terminators get even stupider? Yes. Except maybe they'll be a lot more dakka out and about, which has always been the best way to kill 'em anyway.

Kaldor wrote:

Scottiebhoy wrote:Thanks for clearing that up with the Librarian. So GK termies are only allowed to use HH.

Ive read what it said in the rulebook, but say a Halberd in the GK codex says it confers +2 Init, but then in the rulebook its states its unwieldy with +1 S AP2 as halberds are classed as force axes.
Sorry if im being dense, just trying to get my head round it

There's another part in the same section. It say's that any weapon which has it's own rules, counts as an 'unusual force weapon' and has AP3 in addition to any other rules.

So Halberds, because they have a special rule, count as an unusual weapon, and are AP3.

There was much talk about Draigo being sad... very sad; because his super-kill sword that last week melted everyone's face, now is ap3 :(

I'm pretty sad too.

daedalus-templarius wrote:[

There was much talk about Draigo being sad... very sad; because his super-kill sword that last week melted everyone's face, now is ap3 :(

I'm pretty sad too.

It's true, except the same thing happened to most special characters. Mephiston, for instance. Kinda amusingly, a mephy-Draigo fight would be kinda a slapfest for a while until eventually mephy failed a save.

It's not like I exactly think SM captains will be getting powerfist, or anything.....to much risk of getting punked, first. It just makes 2+ save really good.

On another note, people were already starting to use interceptor squads to last-minute cap, with multiple objectives that becomes even more valuable. Plus they're scoring in one of the scenarios.

I'm wondering if a GK list built around terminators, interceptor squads and henchmen/buildings might not work out great.

It's true, except the same thing happened to most special characters. Mephiston, for instance. Kinda amusingly, a mephy-Draigo fight would be kinda a slapfest for a while until eventually mephy failed a save.

It's not like I exactly think SM captains will be getting powerfist, or anything.....to much risk of getting punked, first. It just makes 2+ save really good.

The Wolf Lord on a TWC with Runic Armor, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Saga of the Bear, Wolftooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman and some Fenrisian Dogs destroys all the Space Marine special characters in the game one on one. Now more than ever.