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Now, I know its not an uber list. But it looks to have the basics, 4 scoring units, transports, armor assault and firepower. But I havent got in any 5th ed games, so I have no clue how it will fare against whats out there....

1 demon prince- Tzeentch, Bolt of Change-warp time, (edit)wings 200



Troops
10 CSM, 1 Champ(p-fist) 1 Icon of Glory, 2 melta guns rhino(extra armor & havoc launcher) 285


10 CSM, 1 Champ(p-fist) 1 Icon of Glory, 2 melta guns rhino(extra armor & havoc launcher) 285

10 Zerks - 1 champ with P-weapon(mount in Land Riader) 245 (edit melta bombs for champ 5 pts)

8 noise marines- 1 champ)blaster & p-weapon, m-bombs)) 1 blast master, 4 sonics, 2 bolters 260

Heavy Support

oblit 75

Pred- AC 2xhb havoc, extra armor 130

land raider- demonic possession, dirge caster 245


1725 total 25 pts for wagear flex

I think the points cost on the DP is a little high for the wargear you havae on him. Lemme work on the list and double check the numbers.

Edit: You over paid for your DP by 20 pts, unless you meant to take wings and forgot to list it. I would suggest wings in any case.

You also over paid for the zerkers by 5 pts. You listed them as having a rhino (which is not in the points) but being mounted in the LR. I assume the Rhino thing was a typo.

Pimped out rhinos tend to be a waste of points since they blow up so easy. I'd take at least the Havoc Launchers off them if not the Extra Armor, and use those points to get a Rhino for your Noise Marines.

Not a lot of experience with Dakka dakka Preds so I can't comment there

I'd swap out the Dirge caster for an extra TL bolter or Dozer blades, or just scrap it entirely.

I'd also suggest upgrading the PW on the Zerk champ to a Pfist.

Otherwise looks good to me.

The DP shouldn't need Bolt of Change and it does need Wings. I think just having Warptime and wings with a 4++ save will suffice. If you want to be spunky, toss on Winds of Chaos and it has a template that wounds 4+, ignores armor and cover and re-rolls wounds.

Your tanks don't need Extra Armor. It is a bad buy. 15 points to reduce the effect of a 16% chance on the damage table. 5 points more gets you immunity to 33% of the damage table (granted I still wouldn't put that on Rhinos). I also question that Dirge Caster.

Your Zerkers need a Powerfist to make ICs think twice about attacking and give you some umph to allow you to take tanks (targets of opportunity) and walkers.

The Noise Marines want to be shooty or choppy, but spending points to make them both will always leave them torn. Blastmasters are 40 points that don't do much as you charge into combat. Decked out champs are a waste if you want them to be shooty. I think you should just drop the champ and fill out the rest of the squad with Sonic Blasters to make them full shooty, since you don't have a Rhino for them and have assault covered with the Berserkers.

A lone Obliterator is a free KP at this points level. With the points you save from dropping all of that Extra Armor, get another one.

I've been watching your posts (sorta stalking you, sorry) and I'm glad to see your CSM are shaping up well. The list is balanced, just not specialised and up to date. It really only has trouble with bloat, but the list is functional as is.

You are for sure bloating this list up a LOT. EA is just a waste :/, and so are Havoc launchers, just not worth it.

Your DP Would be much better with wings.

I'm personally not a fan of CSM with P-Fists but if you like it.

Zerks are good.

NM's should be champless and just be Sonic Blasters and a Blastmaster for fire support.

Like its been said, either drop the oblit or get 2.

Dakka preds are alright but truthfully I think in this list you would be better off running double LR. Swap the Predator and the Oblits and you could take one of the CSM squads (maybe make them zerks too or just normal CSM) and stick them in DP LR's for a good spear assault. Even the NM's with a champ w/ Doomsiron + PW + meltabombs would be good in here. If you don't want to run dual LR then just stick with the predator and the 2 oblits but keep them slim, no havoc and no EA.

Uhh, I'm actually in favor of Rhinos with Havoc Launchers if you aren't speeding into combat (ie. not on the Zerkers, but on the CSM since they only need the Rhinos for small arms protection). They give Rhinos a great punch for 50 points. Just roll 6" and fire those, and it should earn its points back. Granted, that doesn't mean you are required to use them, but 15 points it gives them great versitility. The other upgrade that is great for them is a combi-melta. Surprise! My Rhino just melted your Landraider!

BlackDracoSLC wrote:I think the points cost on the DP is a little high for the wargear you havae on him. Lemme work on the list and double check the numbers.

Edit: You over paid for your DP by 20 pts, unless you meant to take wings and forgot to list it. I would suggest wings in any case.

You also over paid for the zerkers by 5 pts. You listed them as having a rhino (which is not in the points) but being mounted in the LR. I assume the Rhino thing was a typo.

Pimped out rhinos tend to be a waste of points since they blow up so easy. I'd take at least the Havoc Launchers off them if not the Extra Armor, and use those points to get a Rhino for your Noise Marines.

Not a lot of experience with Dakka dakka Preds so I can't comment there

I'd swap out the Dirge caster for an extra TL bolter or Dozer blades, or just scrap it entirely.

I'd also suggest upgrading the PW on the Zerk champ to a Pfist.

Otherwise looks good to me.

I made some edits to post the proper wargear- ty for pointin out the missed wings and metla bomb

The rhinos are mostly that way because thats how theyre modeled and I dont wanna pull off the havoc if I dont have too

The tl bolter on the LR probly makes more sense, one more thing to shoot off too keep it from contesting.

And one other option for the daka pred is a vindicator. they inspire more fear, so might take more AT fire off the rhinos.

A vindi is a great tool for scaring people.

DarkHound wrote:The DP shouldn't need Bolt of Change and it does need Wings. I think just having Warptime and wings with a 4++ save will suffice. If you want to be spunky, toss on Winds of Chaos and it has a template that wounds 4+, ignores armor and cover and re-rolls wounds.

Your tanks don't need Extra Armor. It is a bad buy. 15 points to reduce the effect of a 16% chance on the damage table. 5 points more gets you immunity to 33% of the damage table (granted I still wouldn't put that on Rhinos). I also question that Dirge Caster.

Your Zerkers need a Powerfist to make ICs think twice about attacking and give you some umph to allow you to take tanks (targets of opportunity) and walkers.

The Noise Marines want to be shooty or choppy, but spending points to make them both will always leave them torn. Blastmasters are 40 points that don't do much as you charge into combat. Decked out champs are a waste if you want them to be shooty. I think you should just drop the champ and fill out the rest of the squad with Sonic Blasters to make them full shooty, since you don't have a Rhino for them and have assault covered with the Berserkers.

A lone Obliterator is a free KP at this points level. With the points you save from dropping all of that Extra Armor, get another one.

I've been watching your posts (sorta stalking you, sorry) and I'm glad to see your CSM are shaping up well. The list is balanced, just not specialised and up to date. It really only has trouble with bloat, but the list is functional as is.

The oblit being easy KP (2 for heavy support?) is a valid one. Maybe up-gunning the predator with those points.

Im not sure about the armor though- it may only be a 16%, but that 16% is the difference between moving and not moving.

And with the Noise marines, they may be primarily sitting back on an objective and putting down fire support. But not equipping them for melee is inviting them to get assaulted by jump packs or bikes. So, I thin the 30 pts for a champ and p-weapon are worth it.

Yeah, I suppose if you keep give the Champ a Sonic Blaster too he could deter melee without decreasing the shootiness of the squad.

About the Extra Armor, the problem is that infantry can footslog as fast as the Rhino at top speed. The Rhino being able to move 12" guaranteed is secondary to the fact that anti-infantry weapons can't harm it. I'd take it on the Berserkers Rhino, as they need to be moving all the time, but the Chaos Marines can take a more leisurely pace.

Well, if I drop the EA, and one of the bolter armed noise marines that frees up 50 points.

I could use that to buy a second Oblit. Or, drop the single oblit and take a Vindicator.

Or just keep everything as is, drop the single oblit, and take a greater demon....

I love Greater Daemons, but they require mostly un-upgraded champs. I think you are bette off with the Vindicator. It adds a lot of hitting power to your list. The Obliterator was kinda out of place in the list anyway. Just take it with Possession and a Havoc Launcher. Pie is fun.

Drop Bolt and MoT, both are a waste of points. 4+ cover comes from being behind a Rhino. If you want a defense increase that will do more (versus massed basic firepower and CC attacks) go MoN.

CSM squads are perfect, but drop the Rhino upgrades because they will never be worth it. Might use the points to give each Champ a combi-melta if you want some overkill.

Just go fist on the zerk champ. You won't always get the charge (even if you do, it's only one round of I5), and if you have it at least you can kill vehicles. Melta bombs suck far too much when you have the option of using a fist.

I'm not a big fan of noise marines because for the cost of 1 with a sonic blaster you can get 1 and 2/3 of a CSM. They only pay for themselves if they sit still.

Not a huge Pred fan, but this is the most reasonable build for it and will do it's job well enough. LRs are incredibly costy, but have synergy with what you're doing. Run at least 2 Oblits or you're just handing out a KP.

What does a single Obliterator do for you? They seem to be much better in numbers.

I wouldn't bother with the Noise Marines in this list, and I can't say Im' a big fan of the Predator at that points cost. I'd drop the Predator fo 2 more Oblits and the noise marines would be much better as a unit of Chosen with max assault weapons (meltas and flamers) in a Rhino IMO.

I'd get the Zerker champ a Powerfist and not bother with the meltabomb. str9 with 4 attacks on the charge should be sufficient to deal with whatever armor they engage.

I think Wind of Chaos would be great on the Prince, but I don't want to say to drop either power for it because Bolt is really good in the current mechanized meta and Warptime is always solid. I guess it is just something else to look at.

1 demon prince- Tzeentch, Bolt of Change-warp time 200


Troops
10 CSM, 1 Champ(p-fist) 1 Icon of Glory, 2 melta guns rhino 255

10 CSM, 1 Champ(p-fist) 1 Icon of Glory, 2 melta guns rhino 255

10 Zerks in rhino- 1 champ with P-fist & (mount in Land Riader) 250

7 noise marines- 1 champ)blaster & p-weapon, m-bombs)) 1 blast master, 5 sonics, in rhino 245


Heavy suppport
Vindicator-demonic posession, combi bolter 150

Pred- AC 2xhb havoc 115

land raider- demonic possession, dozer blade 245


1750 total

Ok, thats droppin the rhino upgrades, 1 NM and the oblit- its adding a P-fist on the Skull champ, an extra sonic blaster and a rhino for the NMs(I still plan on objective parking them-so rhino is optional) and a Vindicator.

Many people dislike the NM's. But, I like them, so theyre staying

Now, do you guys think the posessed vindie is a good choice, or should I go with 2 oblits? I should note, that I have pretty bad luck with oblits, in 3rd ed tourneys I would kill them- with TL plasma guns-yes thats alot of ones. It happened more than once too And if the vindie turns into a fire magnet, thats no biggie- keeps fire off the rhinos.

The suicide dakka predators have always been underrated-a squad of Havocs with the same firepower start at 145 for 5. This is 30 pts less and if I end up facing a deathwing army or something I can always try ramming & tank shocking with it As cheap as it is I tend to play it like its an ork vehicle. But it is viable anti horde firepower, and on avg should get a MEQ or two if the havok land well. The AC is also viable against Rhinos & light armor- so those are targets of choice when it moves and can only fire 1 weapon.

Oblits = more shots and at better range, but I also understand wanting more armor targets too. In this particular list I'd say either way.

The list shaped up very well. Lots of armor, lots of marines. Lots of dakka, lots of choppy. I think the Vindicator and Predator work well here, and the only thing I can suggest is thinking about that Daemon Prince. It feels out of place to me, but it does add another target for the enemie's already strained anti-tank weapons and has a good save against those weapons, so it is effective. Just something about it feels off...

The DP is a model I really like, its a simple but nice conversion that Ive been using since the 3.2 chaos codex came out and allowed demon princes

I may swap out Bolt for Gift, turning people into spawn amuses me, and I have the spawn models for it....