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Does equipping a DH character with a Storm Shield grant an extra attack?

THis has been a bone of contention in my little gaming group for a while; I'm of the opinion that it doesn't, largely because the Codex says it's not a weapon per se, but counts as a one-handed weapon because nothing else can be used by the hand holding the shield. That's good enough for me, the fact it only counts as a one-handed weapon for the purposes of taking up wargear slots, but some people simply read the part about it counting as a one-handed weapon and ignore the rest of the text. Apparently their thinking is that, unlike ALL other Storm Shields in the 40K universe, the Daemonhunters' one was intended to grant +1 Attack like a normal CCW and continues to do so because our Storm Shields weren't FAQed to provide a 3++ save, nd thus GW deliberately allowed the extra attack it has (apparently) always granted to stand because of the worse protection it offers.

The biggest problem is that, unlike all other SS' in the 40K universe, there is absolutely no RaW whatsoever you can quote to make these people give up their nonsense. Nowhere in the wargear description does it categorically state that the SS doesn't grant +1 Attack. There is, however, a piece of text that states it counts as a one-handed weapon, and the +1A proponents will then go to the rulebook and show you the bit in the CCW section where it talks about the bonuses conferred by one-handed weapons.

It's a sticky wicket to be sure, and I'd like some opinions on it from other folk

Well, it is a 1 handed weapon, but it does not say it is a 1 Handed CLOSE COMBAT weapon, nor does it say it is a Close Combat Weapon of any kind. As such, it cannot be used in Close Combat as a CCW. it may count as a 1 handed weapon, but that is all it counts as. It isn't a close combat weapon in any way, so it can no more be used to grant an extra attack than a Flamer or Plasma Gun.

InB4People Disagree even though I am right.

Gwar! wrote:Well, it is a 1 handed weapon, but it does not say it is a 1 Handed CLOSE COMBAT weapon, nor does it say it is a Close Combat Weapon of any kind. As such, it cannot be used in Close Combat as a CCW.

awww. No shield-checking in the grimdark future?

Deffgob wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Well, it is a 1 handed weapon, but it does not say it is a 1 Handed CLOSE COMBAT weapon, nor does it say it is a Close Combat Weapon of any kind. As such, it cannot be used in Close Combat as a CCW.

awww. No shield-checking in the grimdark future?

No Shield Bashing it seems

It's not like Thunder Hammer Termies need it anyway, yeh?

But yeah, I'm not 100% on this, but I think when the DHs codex was written, there were limits to what a model could carry, that's why it is specified as a 1H weapon, but it does not say that it is a CC weapon at all.

Deffgob wrote:But yeah, I'm not 100% on this, but I think when the DHs codex was written, there were limits to what a model could carry, that's why it is specified as a 1H weapon, but it does not say that it is a CC weapon at all.

Exactly. You couldn't get a bonus attack because you could not possibly have 3 Single handed weapons, or if you had a 2 Handed CCW, you wouldn't get the bonus attack anyway. That's why "new" storm shields have the "cannot get bonus attacks" provision, because now there are no limits to what a model can carry (Hell, an assault Squad Sergeant can have 4 Lightning Claws, how awesome is that! :3)

He wants 'em on 'is feet for extra killin.

I like to think that any seargent with 4 lighning claws is really a nob in disguise.

Gwar! wrote:Well, it is a 1 handed weapon, but it does not say it is a 1 Handed CLOSE COMBAT weapon, nor does it say it is a Close Combat Weapon of any kind. As such, it cannot be used in Close Combat as a CCW. it may count as a 1 handed weapon, but that is all it counts as. It isn't a close combat weapon in any way, so it can no more be used to grant an extra attack than a Flamer or Plasma Gun.

InB4People Disagree even though I am right.

First post and we're already up against the beloved nonsense spouted by +1A advocates: Page 37, main rulebook, 4th paragraph:

"+1 Two Handed Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/ or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack. Models with more than 2 weapons etc etc..."

OK, so, the Storm Shield counts as a one-handed weapon. The argument goes that, because something that "counts as" something else must count as that something else for all purposes, it must therefore grant a +1 Attack bonus because of this paragraph.

The paragraph doesn't say that the model has to be armed with two close combat weapons to get the bonus attack, just that it has to be armed with two single-handed weapons. One handed and single handed are different ways of saying the same thing so you can't pull them up on the semantics, nor can you point to the bit in the brackets because, although it provides a list for reference, it doesn't say that the list is exhaustive or authorative.

Basically this is the most annoying part of the argument for me, because it seems that, going strictly by the rules as written and ignoring intent and precedent, the people who reckon it should grant +1 Attack are right. That might not seem like such a big deal, but when you consider that GK Terminators, Justicars and Heroes, all of whom can take a Storm Shield (either from the Armoury or as part of their gear options), are waving one-handed WS5 I4 S6 power weapons around (and, in one case, a WS5 I5 S6 force weapon whose special ability ignores Eternal Warrior) those extra attacks quickly add up to carnage; especially if they all have 4++ saves in CC too. It even makes Acolytes more potent, which is just silly.

What pisses me off most is that the intent (that the Storm Shield DOESN'T grant +1 Attack) is so clear, yet because of this little paragraph of the RaW you can't really do much but accept that the +1 Attack crowd are right. The SS should grant +1 Attack. It doesn't if you're playing against me, but it should.

Deffgob wrote:But yeah, I'm not 100% on this, but I think when the DHs codex was written, there were limits to what a model could carry, that's why it is specified as a 1H weapon, but it does not say that it is a CC weapon at all.

There still are; there's a paragraph at the top of the DH armoury page still lays all the old-school restrictions on DH characters and armoury-plundering. You're still limited to 100pts of wargear per model, GK Justicars can't take different weapons, plus you're only allowed 2 weapons total (one of which can be 2-handed). It's not much of a restriction, but it's there regardless.

On the upside the lack of updates and FAQs means DH Smoke Launchers are still old-school awesome, and the Force Weapons are too

DarkHound wrote:It's not like Thunder Hammer Termies need it anyway, yeh?

Yeah, no models need a 3++ save. Waste of points

Whoops, stupid me.

It says in the DH Codex that they count as one-handed weapons though. In one of the finer examples of GW's inability to write lucid and coherent rules it qualifies this by saying that the shields aren't weapons "per se", but nowhere does it specifically state that the Shields aren't weapons. In fact, reading the RaW, it pretty much says they ARE.

It's why I hate it so much; the only way to argue against it is to go to precedent (i.e every other Storm Shield in 40K) and intent, which is clear. Neither of these things change the RaW, by which your GKT's Storm Shields grant them an extra attack and a nice 4++ save in CC.

No Offence, but when you quote the Close Combat Rules, it applies only to Close Combat Weapons. Space Marines with 2 Combi Flamers don't get a bonus attack, even though they have two weapons, because they are not Close combat Weapons.

And before you say "But they must be single handed weapons", combi Flamers are never defined as any handed, and if you claim that the weapon has tp be explicitly stated as single handed, you also claim that pistols do not give a bonus attack either.

Gwar! wrote:No Offence, but when you quote the Close Combat Rules, it applies only to Close Combat Weapons.

It doesn't, though, that's the problem. Nowadays the only time weapons are defined as anything is when there's a specific need to do it (for example in the case of two-handed CCWS like the Relic Blade, which can be taken from the army list entry by models armed with a pistol, and therefore need to be defined as two-handed so's the penalties can be applied), and it's an artefact of the age and un-FAQed status of the DH Codex that it can take advantage of such piss-poor rules writing and checking.

And before you say "But they must be single handed weapons", combi Flamers are never defined as any handed,

And it's for exactly that reason that they don't grant +1 attack in CC. The problem with this analogy is that Storm Shields are, quite explicitly, stated to count as one-handed weapons by the DH Codex, the rules for bonus attacks don't specify that the bonuses are only applied to weapons specifically stated as "close combat weapons", and as such the SS must give +1 Attack according to RaW.

and if you claim that the weapon has tp be explicitly stated as single handed, you also claim that pistols do not give a bonus attack either.

The problem here is that it explicitly states that weapons with the "Pistol" type in their profile can be used as an extra CCW, so the number of hands used to hold the pistol is irrelevant; as long as it's profile says "Pistol", it can be used as an extra CCW.

There's also a section on pg.42 of the BRB where it talks about the different types of weapons there are. One argument I've seen against the +1 Attack is that, because the Storm Shield confers a 4++ save, it must therefore be counted as a Special Close Combat Weapon since Special CCWs are models which "enhance the wielder's combat skills", and a 4++ save enhances the wielder's combat skills. Nemesis Force Weapons are also Special CCWs, and because the model has two Special CCWs it must choose to use one or the other when making attacks and, as stated at the bottom of the page, doesn't gain any bonuses for having two Special CCWs. This is as close as I've come to having a RaW counter for the +1A bollocks, and even this doesn't stand up to scrutiny because the Storm Shield doesn't appear on the list of Special CCWs (although it's not stated to be exhaustive) and by this logic Pistols would also be Special CCWs, since they also have a ranged attack profile. There's a paragraph on Normal Close COmbat Weapons too, but once again pg.37 doesn't require a model to be armed with two one-handed close combat weapons, only two single-handed weapons.


It's bollocks, isn't it? You wouldn't believe how long I've been trying to find a way around this bs, but nothing stands up to scrutiny. >_<

Frank Fugger wrote:The problem here is that it explicitly states that weapons with the "Pistol" type in their profile can be used as an extra CCW, so the number of hands used to hold the pistol is irrelevant; as long as it's profile says "Pistol", it can be used as an extra CCW.

You can't have it both ways. It says it is a CCW, Storm Shield doesn't say it is a CCW. Therefore, the Pistol allows the attack, the Storm Shield Does not. If, like you say, weapons do not have to be defined as CCW to be used in CC, why can't two Combi Flamers be used in CCW?

Gwar! wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:The problem here is that it explicitly states that weapons with the "Pistol" type in their profile can be used as an extra CCW, so the number of hands used to hold the pistol is irrelevant; as long as it's profile says "Pistol", it can be used as an extra CCW.

You can't have it both ways. It says it is a CCW, Storm Shield doesn't say it is a CCW. Therefore, the Pistol allows the attack, the Storm Shield Does not. If, like you say, weapons do not have to be defined as CCW to be used in CC, why can't two Combi Flamers be used in CCW?

because they're listed as being two handed? (also you could only take 1 as the daemon hunters codex doesn't let you take 2, 2handed weapons)

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:The problem here is that it explicitly states that weapons with the "Pistol" type in their profile can be used as an extra CCW, so the number of hands used to hold the pistol is irrelevant; as long as it's profile says "Pistol", it can be used as an extra CCW.

You can't have it both ways. It says it is a CCW, Storm Shield doesn't say it is a CCW. Therefore, the Pistol allows the attack, the Storm Shield Does not. If, like you say, weapons do not have to be defined as CCW to be used in CC, why can't two Combi Flamers be used in CCW?

because they're listed as being two handed? (also you could only take 1 as the daemon hunters codex doesn't let you take 2, 2handed weapons)

Sorry, I was talking about Space marine ones. They are not listed as any sort of handed. If, like Frank claims, it doesn't matter if it is listed as a ccw or not, why can't I use both in CC for an extra attack? Because they are not close combat weapons. The same way as a Storm Shield is not a Close Combat Weapon.

There really isn't an argument here, the BRB says that fighting with 2 ccw's grants an extra attack, not 2 weapons. If anyone tries to argue RAI against it, they'll lose that one, too. Since all other SS's do not grant an extra attack.

Deffgob wrote:There really isn't an argument here, the BRB says that fighting with 2 ccw's grants an extra attack, not 2 weapons. If anyone tries to argue RAI against it, they'll lose that one, too. Since all other SS's do not grant an extra attack.

Good Lord! RaW and RaI syncing up?

Well I never! [/Monocle]

Gwar! wrote:You can't have it both ways. It says it is a CCW, Storm Shield doesn't say it is a CCW. Therefore, the Pistol allows the attack, the Storm Shield Does not.

Yes you can. P.29, "Pistol":

"All pistols are effectively Assault 1 weapons with a range of 12" (unless differently specified in their profile). In addition a pistol counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase."

As you said yourself, weapons aren't defined by how many hands it takes to use them anymore, and as such a Pistol doesn't need to be specified as a single-handed or one-handed weapon; having the word "Pistol" in it's Type column is enough to allow it to count as a close combat weapon. The rule regarding bonus attacks on p.37 makes reference to pistols being single-handed weapons, and as such it can be inferred that that's what they are, and thus they grant +1 attack.

With the Storm Shield, the argument holds that it grants +1 Attack because it counts as a single-handed weapon. It doesn't have to specify that it counts as single-handed CCW because the rule on bonus attacks doesn't make that distinction, and thus we're stuck trying to find other pieces of RaW to beat down the nonsense.

If, like you say, weapons do not have to be defined as CCW to be used in CC, why can't two Combi Flamers be used in CCW?

Because Combi-Flamers are not defined as single-handed weapons, nor does it say in their description that they can be used as close combat weapons in the Assault phase. Pistols can, because their rules say so, and apparently DH Codex- Storm Shields can because they count as one-handed weapons, and since a weapon doesn't specifically need to be a one-handed close combat weapon to grant +1 attack according to p.37 then +1 attack is what they grant.

Seriously, I've been having this discussion since I started playing again 6 months ago; there ain't an angle I haven't approached it from and there's not a stone I've left unturned, but at the end of the day everything comes back to that fething rule on page 37 and that shoddy little addendum in the DH armoury. As far as I can see there simply is no way around it; which, in a way, is cool, because it makes my GKTs extra-awesome.

No, if Combi Flamers cannot be used in CC as they are not defined as CC Weapons, neither can Storm Shields, as they too are not defined as Close Combat Weapons. They are just Wargear that counts as a weapon for the purposes of how much wargear a model can hold.

Being a one handed weapon does not mean they are automatically close combat weapons. You are taking rules in a vacuum and trying to make it work.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Seriously, I've been having this discussion since I started playing again 6 months ago; there ain't an angle I haven't approached it from and there's not a stone I've left unturned, but at the end of the day everything comes back to that fething rule on page 37 and that shoddy little addendum in the DH armoury. As far as I can see there simply is no way around it; which, in a way, is cool, because it makes my GKTs extra-awesome.

oh that all ... the answers easy ... grey knights can't use them because they're a Weapon and Grey knights can only use there stand weapons. Also they can only carry 2 weapons so couldn't take a third if they wanted

Grey Kights (i quote) in power armour can only choose items from the wargear list

oh that all ... the answers easy ... grey knights can't use them because they're a Weapon and Grey knights can only use there stand weapons. Also they can only carry 2 weapons so couldn't take a third if they wanted

Grey Kights (i quote) in power armour can only choose items from the wargear list

GKTs may have TH/SS though, plus Inquisitors and others may have SS as well. So much for your easy answer...

The BRB specifies only that you need to have two "one-handed" weapons to get the bonus, which a Storm Shield is defined as in the DH codex. End of Story.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:

oh that all ... the answers easy ... grey knights can't use them because they're a Weapon and Grey knights can only use there stand weapons. Also they can only carry 2 weapons so couldn't take a third if they wanted

Grey Kights (i quote) in power armour can only choose items from the wargear list

GKTs may have TH/SS though, plus Inquisitors and others may have SS as well. So much for your easy answer...

The BRB specifies only that you need to have two "one-handed" weapons to get the bonus, which a Storm Shield is defined as in the DH codex. End of Story.

If they have a thunder hammer and a storm shield they can't have an extra weapon (because they can only have 2 weapons )and can't have extra cc attack as only matched weapons work for Thunder hammers

Hey! That makes everything irrelevant, huzzah! Thunderhammers simply DON'T get the bonus from it, as it says in the BRB.

True, but they may have them. Otherwise there are still plenty of things in the codex that can have them where this issue would be pertinent.

Yes, they can have Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers. BRB says that Thunder Hammers never get the bonus unless you are dual wielding Thunder Hammers. You are not dual wielding Thunder Hammers, you get no bonus. The rulebook has spoken!

Nurgleboy77 wrote:True, but they may have them. Otherwise there are still plenty of things in the codex that can have them where this issue would be pertinent.

Other then the Inquisitors who?

Acolyte can only take 15pts of war gear you want to spend 10pts of that to get an extra attack from the las-pistol? Cool be my guest

Veteran Strom trooper has a hell gun (2 hand weapon) so couldn't get another CC attack

So out of the whole army 4 inquisitors and up to 12 Acolyte can abuse this glitch ... I don't see this as a problem

It isn't a Glitch! You don't get the bonus attack!!!!!

Gwar! wrote:It isn't a Glitch! You don't get the bonus attack!!!!!

Sorry gwar you do.

"Normal Close Combat Weapons
weapons like chainwords, rifle butts, combat blades,
bayonets, ect., do not confer any particular bonus to
the model using them (skipping bit on pistols)"

also
"4 although a storm shield is not a weapon as such, it counts as a single-handed weapon because nothing else can be used by the arm hold the shield."
so in its own rules it is clarified as being a CCW

Huh? How does "Normal Close Combat Weapons" have anything to do with it? It is not a Normal Close Combat Weapon at all. It is not a Close Combat Weapon PERIOD. It is no more a Close Combat Weapon than a Combi Flamer is. If you get a bonus attack for StormShield and Pistol, I get Bonus attacks for having 2 Combi Flamers on my Tactical Squad Sergeant.