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Combi flamer can be used as a CCW trouble is its a 2 handed riffle butt (alla Normal CCW)

No, BRB simply says you don't. Thunder Hammers can't get the bonus if there isn't a Thunderhammer in his other hand. He can have a Thunder Hammer and a pistol and he wouldn't get the bonus.

Tri wrote:Combi flamer can be used as a CCW trouble is its a 2 handed riffle butt (alla Normal CCW)

It is never stated to be 2 handed. Read the Space marine codex. It is not two handed ANYWHERE. It also is not a CCW.

DarkHound wrote:No, BRB simply says you don't. Thunder Hammers can't get the bonus if there isn't a Thunderhammer in his other hand. He can have a Thunder Hammer and a pistol and he wouldn't get the bonus.

ehh what ? we've moved on from there this is about combining the Storm shield with another 1 handed CC (that can be combine to get an extra attack)) for the 3 people that can still take this combo (Inquisitors and acolyte)


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Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:Combi flamer can be used as a CCW trouble is its a 2 handed riffle butt (alla Normal CCW)

It is never stated to be 2 handed. Read the Space marine codex. It is not two handed ANYWHERE. It also is not a CCW.

yes you're right but you can only get a bonus attack if its listed as being 1 handed ("if a model is using 2, 1 handed close combat weapons")

so you need 2, 1 handed close combat weapons

Sorry. Anyway it isn't a close combat weapon. It is a one handed weapon, to help with old rules. It is not worded as a close combat WEAPON.

Yeah, combi flamer doesn't work Gwar. It never says its is one handed, so you can't get an extra attack for it. Sure it never says it is 2 handed either, but that doesn't matter. Apparently they exist in some sort of undefined limbo state.

Tri wrote:so you need 2, 1 handed close combat weapons

Yes, exactly. And a Storm Shield is not a Close Combat Weapon.


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Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Yeah, combi flamer doesn't work Gwar. It never says its is one handed, so you can't get an extra attack for it. Sure it never says it is 2 handed either, but that doesn't matter. Apparently they exist in some sort of undefined limbo state.

The thing is, a CCW does not have to say it is 1 handed, it just has to be a non two handed CCW. otherwise models with 2 Normal CCW or a CCW and Pistol would never get the bonus attack as neither are specifically designated as 1 handed CCW.

Rules for Normal Close combat weapons is some what open .... It reads that every thing can be used this way ... How else could they list riffle butts? if its not listed as being 1 hand you can't use it to gain an extra CC attack but other wise every thing counts. (hell they even list frags as being a CC weapon)

Tri wrote:Rules for Normal Close combat weapons is some what open .... It reads that every thing can be used this way ... How else could they list riffle butts? if its not listed as being 1 hand you can't use it to gain an extra CC attack but other wise every thing counts. (hell they even list frags as being a CC weapon)

Because Frags ARE a CCW. You use them against vehicles. They are CCW with no rules for use against infantry (bar the Cover benefits)

Gwar! wrote:The thing is, a CCW does not have to say it is 1 handed, it just has to be a non two handed CCW. otherwise models with 2 Normal CCW or a CCW and Pistol would never get the bonus attack as neither are specifically designated as 1 handed CCW.

errr your right technical you can't get an extra attack for a pistol in all the new codexs without an armoury ... chalk this up as another GW proofreading error

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The thing is, a CCW does not have to say it is 1 handed, it just has to be a non two handed CCW. otherwise models with 2 Normal CCW or a CCW and Pistol would never get the bonus attack as neither are specifically designated as 1 handed CCW.

errr your right technical you can't get an extra attack for a pistol in all the new codexs without an armoury ... chalk this up as another GW proofreading error

No, my point is you DO, because to get the bonus attack the weapons do NOT need to be explicitly 1 handed, they just have to not be 2 handed.

Unless of course you don't and GW are flaming idiots. #2 is more likely sadly :(

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The thing is, a CCW does not have to say it is 1 handed, it just has to be a non two handed CCW. otherwise models with 2 Normal CCW or a CCW and Pistol would never get the bonus attack as neither are specifically designated as 1 handed CCW.

errr your right technical you can't get an extra attack for a pistol in all the new codexs without an armoury ... chalk this up as another GW proofreading error

No, my point is you DO, because to get the bonus attack the weapons do NOT need to be explicitly 1 handed, they just have to not be 2 handed.

Unless of course you don't and GW are flaming idiots. #2 is more likely sadly :(

Gwar wheres your normal RAW or death ... If its not quoted as being 1 handed you can't use it to get an extra attack .... Admit it this is the one time your going to play RAI because RAW is so wrong its laugh able

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The thing is, a CCW does not have to say it is 1 handed, it just has to be a non two handed CCW. otherwise models with 2 Normal CCW or a CCW and Pistol would never get the bonus attack as neither are specifically designated as 1 handed CCW.

errr your right technical you can't get an extra attack for a pistol in all the new codexs without an armoury ... chalk this up as another GW proofreading error

No, my point is you DO, because to get the bonus attack the weapons do NOT need to be explicitly 1 handed, they just have to not be 2 handed.

Unless of course you don't and GW are flaming idiots. #2 is more likely sadly :(

Gwar wheres your normal RAW or death ... If its not quoted as being 1 handed you can't use it to get an extra attack .... Admit it this is the one time your going to play RAI because RAW is so wrong its laugh able

The thing is, in this case the RaW is contradicting itself, so it's impossible to know how it is meant to be played, unless you look at phrases such as that on page 37 which says pistols do give a Bonus attack.

-Le Sigh-

Why can't GW hire me, I'd have errata written in 3 weeks.

You know, now that you bring that up, my buddy and I were planning to buy out GW and stick you, H.M.B.C. and Yakface in charge or something.

Lord no pick any one ... but the in fighting between them all, they'd never agree on any thing

Tri wrote:
Gwar wheres your normal RAW or death ... If its not quoted as being 1 handed you can't use it to get an extra attack .... Admit it this is the one time your going to play RAI because RAW is so wrong its laugh able

Do I really have to say this again? The BRB doesn't say a model with 2 one-handed weapons gets a second attack. That's the title of the section, but what the rule says is "A model with 2 normal ccw's gets a bonus attack." Please, please don't bring up the "if it doesn't say 1handed, it's 2handed" argument, it makes me lose hope...

Deffgob wrote:The BRB doesn't say a model with 2 one-handed weapons gets a second attack.

Actually, it does. Page 37, under 'Number of Attacks'

Deffgob wrote:

Tri wrote:
Gwar wheres your normal RAW or death ... If its not quoted as being 1 handed you can't use it to get an extra attack .... Admit it this is the one time your going to play RAI because RAW is so wrong its laugh able

Do I really have to say this again? The BRB doesn't say a model with 2 one-handed weapons gets a second attack. That's the title of the section, but what the rule says is "A model with 2 normal ccw's gets a bonus attack." Please, please don't bring up the "if it doesn't say 1handed, it's 2handed" argument, it makes me lose hope...

you've missed a bit. It actually reads "Some models are equiped with 2 single handed weapons they can use in cc, with the rules below for the different combinations."

And to add to insaniak's post, page 37 makes no reference to a specific type of weapon (close combat, ranged, etc.).

Tri wrote:you've missed a bit. It actually reads "Some models are equiped with 2 single handed weapons they can use in cc, with the rules below for the different combinations."

Of course, that argument boils down to where you put the emphasis... you could as easily say:
"Some models are equiped with 2 single handed weapons they can use in cc, with the rules below for the different combinations."

... which would mean that being single-handed isn't actually enough on its own... it also has to be a weapon that can be used in close combat.


Edit: spelling. Curse you, cold weather!

a riffle butt is listed as being use able in CC so a combat shield more the qualifies ...

you know what i give up it may be RAW but this is getting far too silly. GW can't right rules to save their lives ... its just like deployment if you don't throw in some rational though it just becomes madness.

One point in favor of DH Storm Shields counting as single-handed weapons for close combat is that they are not Wargear; Storm Shields are listed on the One-handed weapons list in the DH Armoury.

SJ

jeffersonian000 wrote:One point in favor of DH Storm Shields counting as single-handed weapons for close combat is that they are not Wargear; Storm Shields are listed on the One-handed weapons list in the DH Armoury.

SJ

Yes, one I explained right away. It is there because of the old wargear limits. It is a Single Handed weapon, but it is not a Single Handed Close Combat Weapon, so cannot be used in Close Combat as a Close Combat Weapon.

Gwar! wrote:It is a Single Handed weapon, but it is not a Single Handed Close Combat Weapon, so cannot be used in Close Combat as a Close Combat Weapon.

...but can be used in close combat as per the page 37 rule which only stipulates the weapon be single handed in order to grant a +1.

At best, it's a grey area. Personally, I'm leaning more towards single-handed weapons only granting an attack if they're specifically listed as counting as a close combat weapon or pistol, as that saves arguments over all sorts of other wargear that isn't clearly defined.

But that's just my personal opinion on the best way to play the game. There is an argument (courtesy of page 37) for all single-handed weapons granting the +1.

It is also an "argument" for Pistols not to grant a bonus attack.

Not one that's actually backed up by the rules, though.

Seriously, Gwar, let it go. Sometimes, the rules allow multiple interpretations, and this is one of them.

From page 29 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

PISTOL WEAPONS
Pistol weapons are light enough to be carried and fired one-handed...

Ghaz wrote:From page 29 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

PISTOL WEAPONS
Pistol weapons are light enough to be carried and fired one-handed...

Fired one handed, not used in CC one handed.

Also Fluff is not rules.

And Ghaz, you were the one who actually believes pistols do not give the bonus attack, not me, as proven in that burna thread way back when.

Still making up excuses I see. You have your answer that pistols are one-handed yet you refuse the answer because it doesn't fit your point of view. So tell us where do the rules differentiate between how many hands it takes to use a weapon in close combat versus shooting? You have the RAW that pistols are one-handed.

EDIT: The rest of the rules passage confirms you're wrong:

On the plus side, they are handy enough to allow a trooper to fight in close combat with a combination of a pistol and sword, axe or other close combat weapon.

Kind of hard to do if it was only a one-handed weapon when shooting.

Show me where it says I cannot use two Combi Flamers as CCW in Close Combat. If you can use Storm Shields (which are not CCW) then I can use two combi Flamers.

And with rules please, not fluff like you seem to keep posting.