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Im just starting chaos space marines just wondering if abbadon is worth his points

Please read his statline.

Now read it again.

Of course he's worth his points. I'd consider re-rollable WS7 S8 I6 attacks worth it. Coupled with his 2+/4+ save and immunity to instant death, I'd say he's very much worth it.

He's actually WS8. He's just a beatstick, though. Does nothing to alter the way the army functions. Basically just a greater daemon that can ride in land raiders. Still nasty.

The only problem with Abaddon is that you more or less have to build the army list around him. (well, I guess you could just chuck him in and call it a day)

Because he's in Termie armor and has nothing like fleet or biker/beast move/charge distances he generally needs to be transported. That means Land Raider, and may as well throw some guys in the Land Raider to go along with.

That puts Abby at a minimum cost of around 500 pts with transport, 650-750 depending on who you put into the Raider with him.

I guess I'm the only one willing to say it?

The biggest problem with Abaddon, and the one that has kicked him out of most competative lists so far, is that he eats up a CSM HQ slot, and doesn't have lash of submission.

Abaddon can be worth it. He does need a LR transport to make him effective. No walking and no deep striking. He is murder against Tyranids which rely on the high toughness of MC's. His biggest weakness is getting stuck against Ironclads or Soul Grinders. His points also make it tough to take a 2nd HQ choice and still field enough firepower/troops to win the game. It can be difficult to make a consistent, take-all-comers list with him in there.

I honestly don't think that's so much of a problem because the Abby+Friends army is mobile enough and powerful enough in melee to mitigate the need for a second Lash.

I think the problem is much more that you have to either play total Raider Rush or run the risk of the AbbyRaider being a huge fire magnet.

I play a double lash build competitively and I think I could get away with only one if Abaddon was on the table. It's not my play style, but I could see it being effective enough.

Abbadon IS worth his points AS LONG AS the game is 1000 points or more. I've seen people use abbadon in shorter games, and he's too much of a pointsink.

I'd argue that if the game is less than 2,000 Abaddon is too much of a point sink. If you're running Abby in 1k then you've got 1 HQ, maybe 3 CSM squads or 2 Cult squads, and the Land Raider that he's got to ride in. That's generally not enough to do anything.

Thank you can you lash of submission to push them off objectives the last round

Yes.

sourclams wrote:The only problem with Abaddon is that you more or less have to build the army list around him. (well, I guess you could just chuck him in and call it a day)

Because he's in Termie armor and has nothing like fleet or biker/beast move/charge distances he generally needs to be transported. That means Land Raider, and may as well throw some guys in the Land Raider to go along with.

That puts Abby at a minimum cost of around 500 pts with transport, 650-750 depending on who you put into the Raider with him.

This is true. And this that said, even though Abaddon is worth his points, I often find myself asking, "2 daemon princes, or abaddon?" and I have always gone with 2 daemon princes.

well let me put it this way...
i played apocalyspe with like 10 people
the other team had like 2 stormlords and a baneblade
i sent abaddon at them by himself
10 minutes later...
abaddon still with 2 wounds
3 dead superheavy tanks
do you think hes worth it?

CalasTyphon216 wrote:well let me put it this way...
i played apocalyspe with like 10 people
the other team had like 2 stormlords and a baneblade
i sent abaddon at them by himself
10 minutes later...
abaddon still with 2 wounds
3 dead superheavy tanks
do you think hes worth it?

lol

Is abbadon worth his points? Possibly. Is he worth an HQ slot i.e. Lash? No.

Yea........2 DP over Abby for me.
If you take Abby you are almost forced to take a LR...and LR's are sort of meh.

I don't think I'd ever use him, you can do so much better for your HQ choices. If you don't want to use DPs, why not take Kharn? He's like 100 points cheaper and almost as killy.

Sanctjud wrote:Yea........2 DP over Abby for me.
If you take Abby you are almost forced to take a LR...and LR's are sort of meh.

Land Raiders are like a list check for your opponent. If he can deal with them, you're a big chunk of points in the hole. If he can't deal with him... enjoy your massacre.

It's a little better for loyalist marines, and lists (1750+) with 2 LRs can be very competitive. There are plenty of armies who aren't scared of one 14 all around transport with some angry thunder hammer dudes inside, but everyone has to put some focus into putting down 2 of them.

40kenthusiast wrote:I guess I'm the only one willing to say it?

The biggest problem with Abaddon, and the one that has kicked him out of most competative lists so far, is that he eats up a CSM HQ slot, and doesn't have lash of submission.

While dual lash lists are great for obvious reasons, there are plenty of good builds out there that don't rely on them. So I don't think we can say Abbadon isn't useful because he competes for a spot that a lash prince would get.

In the past I've run a lot of 3 or 4 land raider csm builds with berzerkers or noise marines and abby made for a good hq to put with some termies and stuff into a LR. He absolutely murders everything in CC. He is one of the toughest SOBs in the game. He's costly but can be well worth it.

Now only if we could get an updated mini for him as the current one sucks eggs.

I think Abbadon is worth his points but for 160-165pts
you could afford to stick in kharn or fabius

For 130 points, Daemon Prince with wings.
Best thing since DoomRider+Cocaine.

@grankobot:
Who doesn't prepare for LR's...?

Sanctjud wrote:
@grankobot:
Who doesn't prepare for LR's...?

Any army without something as reliable as a meltagun or railgun.

Tyranids, Daemons, most Orks, etc

Orks have str 10 power claws/Nob Bikers.

Tyranids (getting a new update), but had: str 10 combat fexes/MCs, most will say Zoens are hit or miss, but I've seen them wreck LR's with no sweat.

Daemons have multiple MC's, Soul Grinder tongue (when it hits), there have been tacticas for getting the most out of Screamers.

__________________

Preparing for a LR doesn't have to mean killing it.
Neutralizing it through other means is enough for some, and generally the LR is there to deliver the combat unit inside, that is what you want to prepare for....

I'm sure each of the armies you listed have thier ways to absorb what comes out of it.

Anyone arguing that CSM need a Lash to work needs to actually play the game sometime. T5 4 wound large targets don't last very long, and Sorcerers fight for crap. Some(most)times you need the killyness. I'd say he's great for Apocalypse, otherwise take Nurgle Daemons.

Sanctjud wrote:Orks have str 10 power claws/Nob Bikers.

Tyranids (getting a new update), but had: str 10 combat fexes/MCs, most will say Zoens are hit or miss, but I've seen them wreck LR's with no sweat.

Daemons have multiple MC's, Soul Grinder tongue (when it hits), there have been tacticas for getting the most out of Screamers.

All of the above either relies on BS3 or worse or CC, which means any smart player can force you to hit on 6s. I didn't say that these armies couldn't ever kill land raiders THE END!!11!

I just said they couldn't do it reliably.

For example, a Soul Grinder spitting on a LR has (roughly) an 8% chance to immobilize or destroy it. Not exactly something you'd ideally turn to when you need to wipe that tank off the board, right?

/shrug.
I've seen Zoens and Grinders do very well vs. raiders.
Maybe guys here just have better rolling skillz...

and this:

THEEND!!11!

Joke or not, that just lost you some cool points and credibility.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable:

Sorcerers fight just fine if you give them Warptime to go with the Lash of Submission. Actually Warptime and I6 is a nice combination.

Mind you, I have to agree with the sentiment that a Chaos Space Marine army does not requires any Lashes of Submission, particularly in the modern 5th edition environment.

Lash Sor + WT: expensive.
___________

IMO, lash should be used as a tool in addition to the army. That is when it's most powerful and flexible (and it's not that expensive).

It's those that use lash as the clutch of the list... or rely on it completely to win that are 'doing it wrong.'

Yeah, of course it's expensive: but the problem with the Lash apart from its short range, requirement of line of sight, and ineffectuality against vehicles and mechanized infantry, is that it can't be used while the Sorcerer or Daemon Prince is in close combat. The Sorcerer at least can get a psychic power to use in close combat, whereas a Daemon Prince with the Lash of Submission can either get stuck in combat and waste the Lash of Submission, or remain at range and be a big target.

Sanctjud wrote:Lash Sor + WT: expensive.

In my opinion, 155 points for something that versitile is cheap. The man is a beast in close combat, and has Lash to benefit the army when he isn't.

At least for me, anything over 130 is expensive for Chaos .

That's great, but I think we're talking about whether Abbadon actually is worth his points, rather than whether you think Abbadon is worth his points.