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O.K. maybe not useless but innefective, I remember everyone saying ooh, MEQ killers, ooh, but just recently, flicking through the 'dex, I bothered to read them and...They're Str. 3, they'd be good against aspect warriors, 4ups to wound, no save, but MEQ's? 3's to hit arent bad, but then 5's to wound, surely they arent worth it for the number of eldar and I supose tau (although, battlesuit pilots are still T4) around? Has anyone had any different experience, because I'd rather have a scoring hardened vet unit tbh.

Cheers
-Kyley

Stormtroopers have always been pretty iffy. Now it's just more obvious that you have to have a good idea of what exactly you want out of them. One thing you might notice is that they are one of the few units that retain the ability to deep strike, and they even have an ability to reroll the scatter. 105 points buys a min sized unit with two meltas, get one good shot at a tank's back and you're doing okay. Shooting at MEQs a unit that size could expect to inflict a couple wounds. That's a bit of a waste against a tac squad but with deep strike you can pick out more valuable targets. You probably won't directly make their points back this way, but taking out a heavy weapon or a crisis suit and forcing the enemy to react to you could have effects extending beyond the damage the squad inflicts. But yeah, not the sort of thing you can expect to pay off all the time.

ooh, thats a good point, I hadn't thought of DS tank hunters, thats good, I still love the models, and actually, with 6 shots 3's to hit 5's to wound, and 2 meltas, you should still be able to take down a chrisis suit, 1/3 thats 25% casualtys

They're overpriced, but otherwise they're very good against MEQs. I load mine out with two plasma guns and deep strike them near my outflanking Russ squadron.

CREEEEEEED!

I use some slightly modified Vostroyans for my storm troopers. As far as I know they don't make a meltagun for them so I have a pair of plasmaguns for them. Even with the plasma they are a unit that can still hunt tanks pretty well. This also gives them a few more shots for anti infantry duty.
The bigger issue is that with special weapon upgrades they run around 20 points a model. That said I need to try a squad of them with the pinning ability the first time they shoot their hot shot lasguns. Being able to deepstike and potentially pin seems a little risky but it could be fun. Perhaps with some battle psykers...
Cheers
~Volkan

I love my Kasrkin Stormtroopers...however, I am loath to use them on the front lines. More often than not, they are staying back with my Company Command Squad and act as a rapid reaction bodyguard squad. Giving them anti infantry weapons ( GL and Flamer) they can usually respond to a deep striking force with terrible consequences for the incoming enemy. Their BS 4 and pistol and ccw options usually down a few before they get to charge. And then thier carapace armor usually saves a few of them. I am painting up a plasma gunner and a meltagunner to try in different scenarios, but haven't fielded them yet. I can't tell you how well they do in my army, but I expect the plasmagunner will blow himself up the first time out. Just a matter of course for my newly painted plasmagunners. The meltagunner will probably miss his first shot because he got painted.

I have been trying them loaded into one of my valkyries and having them fly to a hot spot and then taking on the trouble. But, my poor valk gets alot of attention from the enemy and usually is shot down before getting the Kasrkin to where they need to be. This leaves my boys out in the open most of the time with no where to run except into the teeth of the enemy guns.

Overall, I wouldn't say that Stormtroopers are useless. They definatley have thier uses...I just haven't found one that works overly well yet.

I love my stormtroopers... in larger games. In smaller games where the points are more contested over... I don't really use them. I typically use them as what seems to be their designed purpose: anti-MEQ that can deepstrike.

I defy you to find a cheaper way to drop a BS4 unit with 2 meltaguns and a bunch of AP3 weapons behind enemy lines, especially with the astropath helping them come in earlier. The enemy can say goodbye to his artillery, godhammer land raiders, devs, etc. I've lost to stormtroopers. No, not IG. Stormtroopers. Maybe they're not worth building an army around, but they're a great, flexible, powerful suicide unit.

Hard to justify paying 105 for 5 stormtroopers and 2 meltaguns when you can get 10 veterans (scoring!) and 3 meltaguns for 5 points less

Veterans have a worse armor save, can't deep strike, have worse basic weapons, can't have the special operations like pinning weapons or a RR to deep strike, and are worse in CC.

So yes, you do have twice as many weapons with an additional melta, but it is stuck in your deployment zone for the first couple turns with no protection except cover, with short-ranged weapons. So unless someone drop pods a dread or parks his land raider in front of them (without discharging it's cargo) they are completely and utterly useless.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:Hard to justify paying 105 for 5 stormtroopers and 2 meltaguns when you can get 10 veterans (scoring!) and 3 meltaguns for 5 points less

The melta vets then sit in their depoyment zone and do nothing. Unless you give them a 55pt chimera transport, but then they are 50% more expensive then the stormtroopers now. The Stormtroopers have the ability to deep strike right into the enemies weak spot. The Melta-vets need to be brought to the fight and their vehicle can be destroyed. Both units have abilities, which are different from each other, that are useful in a game.

Can anyone comment on the synergy of their first-shot-pinning ability with PBS?

I can, from the recieving end. Locked down a 10-man assault squad that I had DSed onto an objective, and then cleared them out with a couple earthshakers, they weren't utterly destroyed, but they were utterly useless, which was good enough to win him the tie.

Str 3 with AP 3.

and cover saves?

Doesnt seem too useful to me...

That's not their main strength though.

That's why the deepstriking comes in handy... it makes it easier to get an angle on high-armor infantry. Still beats regular lasguns... and no marine armor saves is a blessing. Don't knock 'em till you tried them!

I use my own storm troops, but I use them a little differently.

Mine don't have any special weapons, but the sergent does have a power sword. They ds in, and have the ability to reroll the scatter die if necessary, and then proceed to scare the crap out of something from behind, and tie up heavy angry things that are hanging back. Originally they were designed to tie up broadsides and shoot up firewarriors. It proved to be just as useful against ork artillery, devastators, havocs, and anything that is really dangerous if allowed to shoot.

On the note of price, special weps aren't necessary, mine cost 90, and for that 90 I get the same thing every time. They come in, kill their target, and die the next turn. Clockwork that is worth itself.

you mean 95 pts (5 troopers + power weapon), and I'm not sure how 4 S3 power weapon and 12 S3 regular attacks are worth much..... against, say, 15 lootas you'd kill 2, they'd kill 4, and you'd almost guaranteed break (Ld 5 if the sarge fails his 4+) and be dead, while they shoot in their turn as normal. Hell, a pair of broadsides with a shield drone or two would make quick work of 5 stormtroopers.

In fact, none of this seems relevant as anyone paying attention would just shoot 5 'troopers off the table after you rapid-fire hotshot lasgun something. Not a tough task, takes ~20 bolter shots, or a heavy flamer, or a couple heavy bolters to do the job.

I'd take 10 ratlings over 5 stormtroopers any day of the week, and I'm not overly fond of ratlings Also, for the record, 9 sanctioned psykers is only 110.

LunaHound wrote:Str 3 with AP 3.

and cover saves?

Doesnt seem too useful to me...

at the basic level, this is a big one. AP3 doesn't get you far unless you can catch a marine player with his pants down, and his men out of cover (which, since he knows you have incoming deep striking AP3, he would be a schmuck to do).

DarkHound wrote:Can anyone comment on the synergy of their first-shot-pinning ability with PBS?

I can dig this line of thought, and I liked the concept until I thought about it for a while; you're committing a minimum 250 pts (you bought those psykers a chimera, right.....?). Sadly, this entire maneuvre hinges on so many things going right; landing in range without the rerolled scatter, passing the psyker's test, then actually killing a guy (a reliable result though, avg 1.11 kills from 10 shots on T4 in cover). I'd rather just shell said target with Griffins: the griffins are far more useful outside of this combo, do a lot more actual killing (on top of the ord. barrage pin test), and can sit blissfully out of LOS in safety.

Sanguine Sympathy wrote:Veterans have a worse armor save..... worse basic weapons

Hotshot lasguns are only better against 2 targets; 3+ or 2+ infantry, and only majorly better if either is caught out of cover. As for the armour, I'll take 10 wounds who need cover for a 4+ over 5 that don't any day.

I've got 2 units of 10 kasrkin in a shoebox right now; I want stormtroopers to be as good as anybody.

They can also take bolters, and there are a lot of 3+ and 4+ save infantry out there. They also get the benefit of their save in close combat, which vets in cover do not, and against flamers, which vets in cover do not.

Sanguine Sympathy wrote:They can also take bolters, and there are a lot of 3+ and 4+ save infantry out there. They also get the benefit of their save in close combat, which vets in cover do not, and against flamers, which vets in cover do not.

I take bolters when I'm up against Orks, IG, or 'Nids, as the extra strength is handy against the 5+/6+ units. This is also when I take a GL/Flamer, for ripping up infantry. Hotshot lasguns and plasma guns are reserved for MEQs.

Storm Troopers are useful when aiding Grey Knights beacuse they cover the Grey Knights While the Grey Knights get up close. (lol I said Grey Knights a lot).

Storm troopers serve as suicide drop meltas to kill vehicles. They arrive on a 3+ on turn 2 with Astropath and have a decent chance of landing where you want them with the reroll to scatter and 2 meltas has a decent chance of destroying a tank.

They still can fail either by not landing where you want them or the meltas missing or failing to get a kill. It was much easier to justify them in 4th with Victory points where they cost less and if you killed a 150+ point tank you where ahead.

In 5th edition you trade a kill point for a kill point in 1/3 of the missions and storm troopers are more expensive this edition.

If you want to kill Marines there are much better ways of doing so like Plasma Executioners or Banewolfs.

Could they be more useful if used as a supporting unit for line troops? I was thinking I could use them with the move through cover and scout operations to assist Al Rahems units. Mostly as MEQ support with maybe some plasma or cheap nade launchers (I know the 'nades aren't exactly marine killers but they are good weapons and cheap none the less).

(on that note: would it be better t have a bunch of chimeras pop up with old AL or have his fellas show up in a blob on foot?)

Too expensive. Veterans can support gunlines easier and for cheaper, with access to more special weapons.

What makes the suicide drops with meltas effective is that it is more of a preventative measure... for a tank such as a leman russ it is a good tradeoff to exchange a killpoint for a killpoint when you consider that the russ might have gone on to kill a bunch of your heavy infantry or your transports. It may seem like you are not any further ahead by this trade, but your cheap 105 point suicide drop squad getting killed hurts a lot less to your overall army than his 230 point leman russ executioner does to him... get my drift?

If you're talking about Inducted WH / DH Storms, they're fine as 5-man dual-Plasma units.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Too expensive. Veterans can support gunlines easier and for cheaper, with access to more special weapons.

well I was thinking as specifically MEQ support which the Stormies seem to be better at. In addition to the ability to show up with Captain Al Rahem kitted out with move through cover and carapace. Vets may get the armor with grenadiers but they do not get the scout or move through cover abilities or the nicer guns against MEQs. Do you think the extra special weapon (plasma likely) on the vets with a heavy weapon (not too likely to be used if I am using them as a support option. I do not plan to have Al's men remain very still) is more useful against MEQ than the fancy lasguns? I suppose I can see that, and they would be cheaper.

130 points, 10 vets, 3 melta guns, 4 plus save.

Can frfsrf, can capture objectives, can tank hunt.

Can't deepstrike.

55 point for a chimera.

Seems like more than a fair trade to me.

30 points more, demo charge, and 10 melta bombs.

As far as I know, you can only take one doctrine. Either 4+ save or the demo-charge for those vets.

A friend of mine used 10 stormtroopers against my Marines with some success. Our tables had very little cover terrain back then, only directional cover. That way, the stormtroopers killed a whole combat squad on their deep-strike turn. Not pretty.

However, as stated, they need a special purpose like deep-striking suicide tank-hunting.

Witzkatz wrote:As far as I know, you can only take one doctrine.

Reads, "you can take any doctrine" ... its missing the key word 'one'. So if you're mad you could take all of them.

Stormtroopers are just good to draw forces away, hunt vehicles and do damage to DP and MC. Quick throw away soldiers which saves your Vet in Valks for the more diffcult nuts to crack. The AT value of a Stormtrooper/Vet/Valk list will make any Mech player stop and think.