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Any ideas what kind of unit can take on Broodlord w/ toxin sacs, tendrils and extented carapace and his stealer retinue w/ scything talons in close combat? So far the best option has been assault termies with stormshields and Thunderhammers, but even they seem to fall against those monsters.
Comments?

hit them with a dakka predator when it comes out of reserves. that'll thin their numbers. then hit them with plasma / melta fire.

Yes, they fall with shooting. That much is clear. But in closecombat only? No shooting attacks allowed this time.
i want to know how to make unit that can take broodie and pals head to head in a brawl and win

Redonkulous numbers of G-men? with a 5+ (?) save, the stealers have to go down eventually.

Orks would be better for the points though.

EDIT: guardsmen get a commissar and GK GM.

I meant for the IG to shoot of course

The Broodlord is my Tyranid opponent's favorite threat. There is nothing short of a super-heavy that will stand up to it in close combat. You need to stay away and blow it to bits when it shows up. It doesn't have Fleet, so keep yourself 12" away from the table edge. If you absolutely must engage it, bring a Dreadnought or MC of T6 or higher. My Summoned Greater Daemon and Defiler have had some success, but generally they only strip the retinue down to a few members (dieing in the process).

EDIT: @Sniper, they are generally upgraded to 4+ save. The problem with sending mass units at them is that the whole squad can usually put out ~45 wounds on T4, about a third of which ignore armor. You simply don't have the numbers to drown them in close combat.

assault termies with lightning claws?

hmm... not much comes to mind. Slaanesh Terms are useless as stealers go waaaaay before them anyway... i dont think there are any non-special character HQs that can take down a broodlord without a retinue and some serious support.

You shouldn't be in close combat with them, you should be shooting the hell out of them with heavy bolters and autocannons.

oh, I got it.

A venerable dreadnought will stand up to it in hand to hand... and thats about it.

normal marines won't stand much of a chance... a thunderhammer/stormshield captain in terminator armor leading a squad of 3x hammer 2x claw terminators could probably deal with it as well, but thats like hitting a nail with an atomic bomb.

Honestly, it's far easier to get a Dakka Predator and shoot them. They only have a 4+ save!

There is almost no way any Terminators are going to deal with it. That Terminator squad could almost be killed by the Broodlord alone with average rolling. I also wouldn't take a Venerable Dread to them if I had a choice. An Iron Clad would be better, but they get slowed (slightly) down by walkers.

Nothing will stand up to it in close combat. Accept it and buy some more bullets.

Even better then bullets...promethium.

Ironclads have got these guys coming and going, beat them in shooting, with heavy flamer, and then stomp the remainder in CC.

Jack

Shoot them dead. Don't bother getting within 12 inches, unless it's with a BW with 15 burnas in it. Once they blow up the BW, 15 more templates should finish them off since they're nice and clumped for cc.

Shooting, shooting, shooting. Make them pay for losing fleet.

Or, for kicks, get a Defiler and blast the crap out of it with the battlecannon, autocannon, and heavy flamer, then charge.

So conclusion is that theres no tougher melee unit than broodie and pals?
Ohwell, thanks anyways. Let just shoot them from distance.

Thunder555 wrote:So conclusion is that theres no tougher melee unit than broodie and pals?
Ohwell, thanks anyways. Let just shoot them from distance.

I dunno, Nob Bikers and Assault Terminators with TH/SS could give them a run for their money.

Doom them and hit them with a squad of Banshees. 15x PW wounds means that the Genestealers are wiped out before they can strike back, leaving the Broodlord to kill 3 banshees in return. Synapse means he stays in combat and kills 3 more banshees next turn before taking 1 more wound and finishing off the banshees. However this leaves him on his own down a wound and the eldar player up 96 points on the exchange.

If the Banshees get to fire their pistols on the way in there is a chance they could finish the broodlord off, especially if you add an exarch with executioner to pick on the broodlord.

Banshees are probably the best bet, but like anything else you still lose the squad.

I am firmly convinced that they are the best close combat unit in the game until someone shows me the math to prove otherwise. Hitting at I6 and 7, re-rolling hits on 3's with that many rending and armor ignoring attacks. It is just unreasonable.

1) 8 bloodcrushers with all the upgrades for wound allocation. thats 360pts..... If I'm allowed to add points to this, stick fateweaver within 6 inches...

mathwise: genestealers swing, hitting on 3s wounding on 5s... 4 attacks each*8 genestealers is 32 attacks, hitting on rerollable 3s gives you 26-27 hits, wounding 9 times. 5 of which could be rends... brood lord does 3 wounds also.... so yea.. you kill 2 crushers and wound the some others? they swing back and kill all your genestealers and your brood lord dies to combat res...

2) death company in cover... adding points to this, put dante/corbs with them (same as above combat res for the win!)

3) 10 meganobs with cybork bodies in sets of 3 wargear (3 sets of wound allocation groups) with mad dok grotsnik attatched?

4) eversor assasin with a second unit to counter assault after he pops?

5) 10 regular termis with pedro to give them each an extra attack?

the broodlord is fun... but i'm not sure it's competitive since he loses fleet... this makes it easier for your opponents to manuever/assault you.... if the crushers/any unit here assaults your dead. Especially the nobs since they kill all the genestealers before even making it to combat with their combi skorchas...

To add to frgs's list:

- Seer Council, (either on bikes or on foot with Eldrad)
- TH/SS termies with Pedro, Shrike or Vulcan
- Dark Eldar Wyches
- Ironclad
- Soulgrinder

The 12" movement really hurts the brood lord and his retinue.

You're kidding, right? Broodlord isn't very good.

Shoot him.

12 inches? Hahahahah

You're completely invincible to him if you're in a vehicle.

Shoot him.

Supposing he breaks your vehicle, he is now left out in the open during your turn.

He has no invulnerable save. In fact, NO Tyranids do.

Genestealers have fewer attacks than Ork boyz, the same toughness, and either better or worse armor. Just target them and force the BL to take No Retreat! saves. (like that howling banshee suggestion? he would have evaporated on combat resolution)

ONLY 4 ATTACKS. Assault terms on the charge come out even for fewer points-- with better armor, to boot.

Shoot him.

Severe weakness to heavy bolters.

Anything with an invulnerable save. ANYTHING.

ANY POWER WEAPON on an assault-focused unit.

Assault cannons, plasma, melta, demolishers-- what, are you going to be firing all those anti-tank rounds at the Tyranids' TANKS?

SHOOT HIM.

The broodlord is slow, overcosted, lightly armored, not very tough, has an expensive retinue, and has no guns. He's completely helpless-- read that again, COMPLETELY HELPLESS to anything 13 inches or more away. COMPLETELY HELPLESS to anything inside metal boxes. COMPLETELY HELPLESS to anything that ignores a 4+ armor save (or in your situation, a 3+ armor save).

If you're absolutely intent on meeting him in assault, all you have to do is kill the genestealers. It's that simple. Just kill the genestealers like they were regular genestealers (throw boyz, daemonettes, berserkers, assault terms, or ANY OTHER not incredibly overcosted melee unit at them and watch those 21-point 5+ saves crumple).

Otherwise, aim a gun at him, any gun. Heck, lasguns would do the job, even if they don't have that fancy "deletes genestealers" function that bolters and every single other AP5 weapon in the game has, your opponent still has 2:3 odds of losing a genestealer for each die you make him roll. But seriously, aim a gun at the squad. Aim multiple guns at the squad. Aim pulse rifles, bolters, fleshborers, shuriken catapults, splinter rifles, ANY DAMN GUN will do the trick. You're kidding, right?

Even better: make him assault you into cover. Genestealers and broodlords HATE assaulting into cover. Initiative 1 sucks. In fact, Initiative 6 and I7 aren't very good anymore, either, now that kill zones aren't in the game since 4th edition and they go away the moment the opponent forces you to make a move into difficult terrain to get into base to base. Yes, when you assault, every model HAS to attempt to get into base to base. If this means one of his stealers has to assault into cover, they ALL have to roll for it and they ALL have to go at I1 (unless they brought flesh hooks, which is a rarity with feeder tendrils the way they are).

No, seriously. Just aim a gun at him and pull the trigger. Watch the magic at work. Crap! He's getting close! I'd better hop in my transport that I already took because who in their right mind wouldn't have transports unless they were playing Tyranids or had the ability to deep strike at will and drive away!

SHOOT HIM.

I don't know a single good player that doesn't take Carapace upgrade on his Genestealers. Regardless, yes, shoot him.

The Angry Commissar wrote:assault termies with lightning claws?

Yikes, def not, stealers strike first, force all of them to 5+ invul, that many stealers and a broodlord on top could takeon 12 termies easy...


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Oh and warpfield gives zoans and tyrants a 6 invul...



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Oh and you realize even a 30 ork boy squad would get hurt pretty bad by this unit? scy tal genes have 3 attacks, broodlord 4, even if you charged him with orks they would have 4 armor ignoring, and 24 additional attacks, a 6th of which will also ignore armor, and they attack first, and if its me, i put implant on the broodlord, and tendrilson the stealers, so rerolled wounds. 30 boys stands no chance...

Broodlords with retinue are a great cc squad: vehicles, walkers, terminators...not much stands in their way (especially with feeder tendrils on the broodlord and acid maw, scything talons and extended carapace on the regular stealers). Don't let them get where they excel. As everyone else here has suggested just shoot the crap out of them.

DarkHound wrote:I don't know a single good player that doesn't take Carapace upgrade on his Genestealers. Regardless, yes, shoot him.

See, I would note this in my advice, but his opponent is already taking scything talons. Who in their right mind would pay 25 points for a genestealer?

gameandwatch wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and warpfield gives zoans and tyrants a 6 invul...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and you realize even a 30 ork boy squad would get hurt pretty bad by this unit? scy tal genes have 3 attacks, broodlord 4, even if you charged him with orks they would have 4 armor ignoring, and 24 additional attacks, a 6th of which will also ignore armor, and they attack first, and if its me, i put implant on the broodlord, and tendrilson the stealers, so rerolled wounds. 30 boys stands no chance...

Yeah, exactly. That's what I said. Tyranids don't get invulnerable saves.

You're leaving out the factors of (A) Orks shooting on the charge, (B) broodlord can't take implant and tendrils at the same time, and (C) each boy costs 1/3rd to 1/4th as much as the genestealers, and are probably in huge supply.

Let's do the math, though.

Broodlord (96 pts)
Tendrils, X cara, flesh hooks, toxin sacs (as described in OP)
Retinue 11 x (21 pts) = 231 pts
Flesh hooks, scything talons (flesh hooks added because you'd be DUMB not to)

Right now, we're at 327 points, which is equivalent to 54 slugga boyz, or we could do a few mobs with trukks and PK nobz. A FEW. For simplicity's sake I'll just run the math at 54 boyz.
Broodlord goes first!
4 attacks (hits on 3+ w/rerolls), 4 hits (wounds on 2+), 4 probably dead boyz.
Genestealers go next!
33 attacks (hits on 3+ w/rerolls), 29 1/3 hits (wounds on 4+, 1/3 wounds are rends), 14 2/3 wounds of which 4 8/9 are power weapons, 2 4/9 boyz save. 12 2/9 boyz die.

Right now, 16 Orks are dead. If that was a trukk squad, congratulations.

38 Orks on the charge (because they have Fleet AND transport options, they'll probably get the charge-- that, and they're not worried about terrain charges) == 152 attacks. Oh hell.
Half hit (4+), half wound (4+). 38 saves. The only thing that would prevent you from losing combat horribly in this case would be if the Ork player didn't assign any attacks to the BL (not likely) and you didn't get completely wiped out. Simply put: you didn't have ENOUGH models to actually die so you capped out and "won" combat.

Of course, you won't fight 54 Orks on the charge, but my point is that an "equivalent" force would run them through. If that was 30 boyz? He'd still do 14 wounds to you (after taking 16 casualties) not counting the powerklaws or possible shooting. If they were shoota boyz instead of sluggas, firing on the charge? Better break out that army case and start picking your lizards off the board, son. Your squad would be nearly wiped out before the combat even started.

10 Khorne terminators with lightning claws....behind cover.

I see you forgot to include flesh hooks on your broodlord and stealers. Gee, looks like we all go first with our 4 lightning claw attacks. Bye-bye....

It's a point sink, but it has the same purpose as a flyrant (with talons). People have to shoot at it with practically everything for a turn to actually get rid of it. The only difference is that while a flyrant is fast and deadly, the broodlord is slow and more deadly.

Basically it's used to allow everything else to advance with little opposition in the enemy shooting phase...that's at least how I play mine (unless I'm facing khorne daemons, then it's just pure win).


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Spellbound wrote:10 Khorne terminators with lightning claws....behind cover.

I see you forgot to include flesh hooks on your broodlord and stealers. Gee, looks like we all go first with our 4 lightning claw attacks. Bye-bye....

And what 'nid player in their right mind would attack a unit in cover that has no guns?

Well why would I be charged by a unit like that, rather than shooting it?

OP asked what could take it in CC. That could.

Ok, you win. But shooting it would seem to be the most sensible answer.

for the record:

Broodlord - Toxin Sacs, Feeder Tendrils, Extended Carapace 93
11 Genestealers - scything talons 220

So 313 for the unit. I only mention this because for argument's sake, because otherwise my response could be "a 2000 point army".

I also vote 8 bloodcrushers. Let's mathhammer a fight where the stealers get the charge (very likely, could catch the daemons on the deep strike rather easily)

The stealers do 4 wounds after invuln saves, Broodlord does 1.48 (we'll round up to 2 to be nice).

The 5 left attack back, kill 5 stealers. Crushers make their 1 No Retreat! save.

Tyranid turn, 5 stealers attack; We'll be generous again and assume the Bloodcrushers fail BOTH 5+ saves, Leaving us with 4. Broodlord does 1 more wound, leaving us at 3.5 bloodcrushers. They attack again, killing 4 stealers. Another stealer pops to No Retreat.

Daemon turn; 1 steal attacks and almost guarantee whiffs, Broodlord does another wound, putting us down to 3. 1 attacks the stealer, killing it (1 wound on average). 2 attack the Broodlord, let's be generous a third time to the Tyranids and round down 1 wound. Broodlord makes his 3+ No Retreat!.

Tyranid turn; Broodlord does yet another wound, leaving 2.5 crushers, easily dealing the last 2 wounds to the Broodlord.

So, despite making many concessions of rounding in favour of the Tyranids, crushers should win by about a 93 points (320 points for 8 crushers, with 100 points' worth left at the end). Genestealers are scoring but Bloodcrushers giggle like schoolgirls when shot at. Pretty even fight, but bloodcrushers pretty soundly get the job done by 5 wounds.

This is obviously just an intellectual experiment and of middling worth on the battlefield (one turn of good dice sways this fight WAY in one direction or the other), but it's interesting to consider. I'd like to see at LEAST Toxin Sacs on the genestealers (easily worth the 33 points if you ask me), implant attacks would make a mockery of this fight as well. Same with a big mob of nobz, who'd likely have some respectable success.

Also, I hadn't considered this until now, you can't get Scuttlers for the Broodlord can you? His unit can only charge 6", and aren't even fleet! Even outflanking, it's pretty easy to keep anything worthwhile 12" from the edge..... I knew there was a reason I almost never have to fight Broodlord/stealer combos! (kaBOOM; also, cheap transports moving >6"