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tetrisphreak wrote:Nothing at all points to this but i wish special characters were prohibited from joining an ally detachment.

Is a Great Unclean One a unique or special character?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TBD wrote:

Joey wrote:PCSs with 4 flamers and a power fist just became pretty damn potent.

Vulkan He'stan and his friends probably like this rule too.

I think his chapter tactics apply to potential "brothers in arms" allies as well?

(and Grey Hunters & Blood Angels assault squads, for example, can take 2 flamers per 10 guys)

Blood angels and Space wolves do not have the 'combat tactics' special rule, so they couldn't benefit from Vulkan anyway.

Does a Dreadnought or a Land Speeder with a flamer not currently benefit from Vulkan's rules too?

I thought that they do, but I could be wrong.

TBD wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Blood angels and Space wolves do not have the 'combat tactics' special rule, so they couldn't benefit from Vulkan anyway.

Does a Dreadnought or a Land Speeder with a flamer not currently benefit from Vulkan's rules too?

I thought that they do, but I could be wrong.

They do, you don't need combat tactics.

Is it 100%-totally-and-utterly-no-takebacks-confirmed that No Retreat wounds are g-o-n-e-gone from the rules?

I know it would most likely be a terrible idea, but I do enjoy the thought of SW players taking 8 HQs in a 2000+ point game.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Is it 100%-totally-and-utterly-no-takebacks-confirmed that No Retreat wounds are g-o-n-e-gone from the rules?

It's 100%-totally-and-utterly-no-takebacks-confirmed that one guy from Reddit couldn't find them in the book.

lord_blackfang wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Is it 100%-totally-and-utterly-no-takebacks-confirmed that No Retreat wounds are g-o-n-e-gone from the rules?

It's 100%-totally-and-utterly-no-takebacks-confirmed that one guy from Reddit couldn't find them in the book.

It's 100%-totally-and-utterly-no-takebacks-confirmed that no sarcasm or smart arse comments were included in this and the quoted post.

duplicate

I want to know more info about this PE rule. It is either going to make or break my Templars. Or make them shooty...

infinite_array wrote:I know it would most likely be a terrible idea, but I do enjoy the thought of SW players taking 8 HQs in a 2000+ point game.

In the old rules it would have been unstoppable to have 8 wolf lords of Thunder Wolves All kitted Out

EmperorsChampion wrote:I want to know more info about this PE rule. It is either going to make or break my Templars. Or make them shooty...

Instead of rerolling to hit (in 5th) you re-roll ones on to hit and to wound (in 6th).

Assuming the to hit/wound charts haven't changed (only saying that because I haven't seen them) it'll be a nerf on to-hit (on average vs MEQ) and a buff on to wound (on average vs MEQ).

rigeld2 wrote:

EmperorsChampion wrote:I want to know more info about this PE rule. It is either going to make or break my Templars. Or make them shooty...

Instead of rerolling to hit (in 5th) you re-roll ones on to hit and to wound (in 6th).

Assuming the to hit/wound charts haven't changed (only saying that because I haven't seen them) it'll be a nerf on to-hit (on average vs MEQ) and a buff on to wound (on average vs MEQ).

Ew...that rule does not sound fun at all. Oh well, looks like im packing Chaplains again.

tedurur wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Nothing at all points to this but i wish special characters were prohibited from joining an ally detachment.

Is a Great Unclean One a unique or special character?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TBD wrote:

Joey wrote:PCSs with 4 flamers and a power fist just became pretty damn potent.

Vulkan He'stan and his friends probably like this rule too.

I think his chapter tactics apply to potential "brothers in arms" allies as well?

(and Grey Hunters & Blood Angels assault squads, for example, can take 2 flamers per 10 guys)

Blood angels and Space wolves do not have the 'combat tactics' special rule, so they couldn't benefit from Vulkan anyway.

You dont need combat tactics to benefit from Vulkans abilities. So Assuming effects carry over between brotheers in arms taking Vulkan would indeed twin link meltas and flamers.

Yes, yes you do. Re-read his rule. You must exchange Combat Tactics for the twin-looked goodness, only Codex: Space Marine models have Combat Tactics.

Feels pretty lopsided so far towards Marine flavors vs my Eldar flavors. I think everything with Fleet got the short end of the stick with the new charge range, whereas everything that didn't have it has been effectively buffed. At best Fleet units break even if we are charging into difficult terrain, and if not it's less reliable than before. Everybody else basically gained an extra d6 analogous to the run move before a 6" charge. I don't think the ability to reroll makes up for that especially if it's an all dice or none situation.

The comparison made about Wyches having a lower cost than marines as far as Overwatch deaths is nonsense. I don't charge squads at other equally costed squads. I charge with what fits in a transport, which is 10 Wyches, or 9 and a Haem. Unless you are suggesting I march the ladies across the table without a transport before I charge? As someone mentioned, the 4+ dodge is only against CC attacks, and even 5+ armor doesn't fair well against Bolter Overwatch. 9 Bolters Rapid Fire kill 2 with FnP 3 without, and a Missile Launcher is Instant Death (S 8 to T 3) one sixth of the time which skirts FnP anyway. 2.166 dead Wyches is just shy of 25% of the 9 man squad with FnP and 3.166 is over 30% of the 10 man squad. I'm sorry but that is not negligible, that is a morale test if you killed that many on your turn. I can't see how it becomes negligible considering you get it for free, on my turn, when I am trying to charge you. This doesn't just hold true just for Wyches, any 5+ armor unit fares just as poorly, and more so without access to FnP.

The FnP changes also look to benefit marines more than Eldar. From my experience, FnP gave units with poor armor saves at least a chance to save against Bolters and the like that ignored their armor. It was the saving grace for T3 things like Termagants and Wyches. I understand it is a 5+ instead of a 4+ now, but the methods of circumventing have disappeared. Problem is, Eldar still die to plasma because it's Instant Death, Marines no longer have that problem. In addition we don't have wide access to Power Fists and Hammers and the like. In most cases the best we can get is a plain old Power Weapon. Case and point are my Incubi and Banshees. Also we don't have a proliferation of 3+ or 2+ armor save that you need to get past before the FnP comes into question.

So now it takes a S8 anti-vehicle shot to Ignore FnP on a normal Marine. I think the Scorpion Claw is the only fist I can think of available to either army. Did anyone catch whether or not Rending weapons count as a Power Weapon as they do in 5th? That would be icing on the cake. On the flipside though, it's not like there are any high volume of fire S6 and S7 weaponry that would Instant Death and ignore FnP on Eldar that armies tend to take in droves on their vehicles like Scatter Lasers, Multi Lasers, Psycannons, Assault Cannons, Autocannons, etc.

So if you are T4 with 3+ armor things look pretty slick but not so much for T3 with 5+. I don't want to sound like the boy who cried wolf, and I know I at least don't have the full rulebook in front of me for the big picture, but I can't say things look too exciting with what I've learned so far. And as an added note am I the only one disappointed that Rapid Fire weapons seem to get better every edition and Assault weapons are almost shooting yourself in the foot at this point? I remember being excited back in third that a unit had Assault weapons instead of rapid fire. Now it almost seems like a disappointment.

Edit: And does the new Jink save make Flickerfields completely redundant and useless assuming I can move more than 0'?

Griever wrote:
Yes, yes you do. Re-read his rule. You must exchange Combat Tactics for the twin-looked goodness, only Codex: Space Marine models have Combat Tactics.

I looked at this yesterday. It says all your units lose Combat Tactics, but all flamers, etc become twin-linked.

This is different wording from Shrike and others, who says that units with Combat Tactics trade it for another rule (like fleet).

Griever wrote:

tedurur wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Nothing at all points to this but i wish special characters were prohibited from joining an ally detachment.

Is a Great Unclean One a unique or special character?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TBD wrote:

Joey wrote:PCSs with 4 flamers and a power fist just became pretty damn potent.

Vulkan He'stan and his friends probably like this rule too.

I think his chapter tactics apply to potential "brothers in arms" allies as well?

(and Grey Hunters & Blood Angels assault squads, for example, can take 2 flamers per 10 guys)

Blood angels and Space wolves do not have the 'combat tactics' special rule, so they couldn't benefit from Vulkan anyway.

You dont need combat tactics to benefit from Vulkans abilities. So Assuming effects carry over between brotheers in arms taking Vulkan would indeed twin link meltas and flamers.

Yes, yes you do. Re-read his rule. You must exchange Combat Tactics for the twin-looked goodness, only Codex: Space Marine models have Combat Tactics.

No, No, No, That's not how it works

Read the entry again, All your marines exchange combat tactics making all of the weapons listed Twin Linked/Master Crafted meaning things without Combat Tactics such as vehicles are affected.

If you wanted it that way, providing they all count as 'One Army' as the Vulkan text says in 'Your Army' then indeed your allies would benefit from said ability.

I feel like GW boys just kept getting crushed by assault armies and then hobbled them with the new rules (Still waiting for actual rules to make the judgment call tho).

Where as the rest of the world is getting shot off the board with assault being more of an afterthought.

If FNP unlike currently won't work on Instant Death, along with nerfed cover saves, it sounds like GW have sold their last Tyranid Warriors and Raveners. That's basically a huge nerf to FNP overall, regardless if it gets a slight boost when used on MC's.

A shame, I really thought 6th ed would unlock the 75% of my codex that I can't deploy outside beer&pretzel games. Instead the viable pool of units got even smaller. Look how the mighty Genestealers have fallen.

As a Chaos player who used plague marines a lot i'd prefer it on a 4+ to a 5+ as I never seem to get shot by those low AP weapons and i'd still get my 4+ FnP against Flamestorm cannons and other AP3 weaponry.

This FnP is not going to help gaunts very much as they will die to a volume of attacks not power weapons anyway.

I have to agree, Angel_of_Rust. Though I don't think Assault weapons are getting weaker as much as assaulting in general is getting less desirable unless you are a unit of terminators or MeQs with FNP and a Power Fist.

Griever wrote:Yes, yes you do. Re-read his rule. You must exchange Combat Tactics for the twin-looked goodness, only Codex: Space Marine models have Combat Tactics.

Back at you.
All units lose Combat Tactics.
All TH are mastercrafted, etc.

It's not a trade out - hence the reason vehicles benefit as well.

EmperorsChampion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

EmperorsChampion wrote:I want to know more info about this PE rule. It is either going to make or break my Templars. Or make them shooty...

Instead of rerolling to hit (in 5th) you re-roll ones on to hit and to wound (in 6th).

Assuming the to hit/wound charts haven't changed (only saying that because I haven't seen them) it'll be a nerf on to-hit (on average vs MEQ) and a buff on to wound (on average vs MEQ).

Ew...that rule does not sound fun at all. Oh well, looks like im packing Chaplains again.

Remember, it applies to shooting as well. It's an overall buff counting the shooting buff.

N.I.B. wrote:If FNP unlike currently won't work on Instant Death, along with nerfed cover saves, it sounds like GW have sold their last Tyranid Warriors and Raveners. That's basically a huge nerf to FNP overall, regardless if it gets a slight boost when used on MC's.

A shame, I really thought 6th ed would unlock the 75% of my codex that I can't deploy outside beer&pretzel games. Instead the viable pool of units got even smaller. Look how the mighty Genestealers have fallen.

Yup, this is the exact same I am seeing for 6th for Tyranids. ID makes one third of the book useless, reserves kills another one third.

rigeld2 wrote:

Griever wrote:Yes, yes you do. Re-read his rule. You must exchange Combat Tactics for the twin-looked goodness, only Codex: Space Marine models have Combat Tactics.

Back at you.
All units lose Combat Tactics.
All TH are mastercrafted, etc.

It's not a trade out - hence the reason vehicles benefit as well.

EmperorsChampion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

EmperorsChampion wrote:I want to know more info about this PE rule. It is either going to make or break my Templars. Or make them shooty...

Instead of rerolling to hit (in 5th) you re-roll ones on to hit and to wound (in 6th).

Assuming the to hit/wound charts haven't changed (only saying that because I haven't seen them) it'll be a nerf on to-hit (on average vs MEQ) and a buff on to wound (on average vs MEQ).

Ew...that rule does not sound fun at all. Oh well, looks like im packing Chaplains again.

Remember, it applies to shooting as well. It's an overall buff counting the shooting buff.

Well, I could see a reason to take bolter crusader squads now and more tactical terminators. Least it is not a complete nerf and just a slight change.

N.I.B. wrote:If FNP unlike currently won't work on Instant Death, along with nerfed cover saves, it sounds like GW have sold their last Tyranid Warriors and Raveners. That's basically a huge nerf to FNP overall, regardless if it gets a slight boost when used on MC's.

A shame, I really thought 6th ed would unlock the 75% of my codex that I can't deploy outside beer&pretzel games. Instead the viable pool of units got even smaller. Look how the mighty Genestealers have fallen.

If the bonesword rules don't get FAQ'd away, you better start sticking wings + swords on all your Warriors... as it stands Shrikes get a free I10 attack that ignores armour on the charge.

I also read something about Beasts ignoring terrain, which could effectively mean Raveners count has having assault grenades.

Just pointing out that the AMA dude on Reddit said that anything that acts like a power weapon but with special rules of its own still counts as AP3. So Boneswords are most likely AP3, not 2. Also, the Hammer of Wrath hits don't benefit from your weapons, they hit at base S like Impact Hits in fantasy; so you won't be ignoring armor saves with shrikes.

edited for quote:

[–]Rixitotal[S] 6 points 19 hours ago
no, if it has its own special rules but counts as a power weapon its the same but AP3. again, FAQ should sort it.

streamdragon wrote:Just pointing out that the AMA dude on Reddit said that anything that acts like a power weapon but with special rules of its own still counts as AP3. So Boneswords are most likely AP3, not 2. Also, the Hammer of Wrath hits don't benefit from your weapons, they hit at base S like Impact Hits in fantasy; so you won't be ignoring armor saves with shrikes.

edited for quote:

[–]Rixitotal[S] 6 points 19 hours ago
no, if it has its own special rules but counts as a power weapon its the same but AP3. again, FAQ should sort it.

Boneswords don't "count as" power weapons, they make your attacks ignore armor saves.
Minor but distinct difference.

But yeah, the FAQ/Errata will have to sort it out.

streamdragon wrote:Just pointing out that the AMA dude on Reddit said that anything that acts like a power weapon but with special rules of its own still counts as AP3. So Boneswords are most likely AP3, not 2. Also, the Hammer of Wrath hits don't benefit from your weapons, they hit at base S like Impact Hits in fantasy; so you won't be ignoring armor saves with shrikes.

edited for quote:

[–]Rixitotal[S] 6 points 19 hours ago
no, if it has its own special rules but counts as a power weapon its the same but AP3. again, FAQ should sort it.

I think Bone Swords aren't power weapons, but specifically ignore armour saves.

Ok going by the Battle report in White Dwarf - they didn't use special characters in their ally detachments. There is hope that Draigo wont' show up to every ultramarine battle. Hopefully someone on reddit will ask the man with the book if special/unique characters are prohibited from being in an allied detachment.

streamdragon wrote:Just pointing out that the AMA dude on Reddit said that anything that acts like a power weapon but with special rules of its own still counts as AP3. So Boneswords are most likely AP3, not 2. Also, the Hammer of Wrath hits don't benefit from your weapons, they hit at base S like Impact Hits in fantasy; so you won't be ignoring armor saves with shrikes.

edited for quote:

[–]Rixitotal[S] 6 points 19 hours ago
no, if it has its own special rules but counts as a power weapon its the same but AP3. again, FAQ should sort it.

xttz wrote:The rules for Boneswords in their codex (which take precedence) state: No armour saves may be taken against wounds inflicted in close combat by a Tyranid with a Bonesword...

To me this means two things:
1) They're not power weapons, they just ignore armour saves. Meaning they're effectively AP2 but without the damage bonus to vehicles.
2) As the rule applies to all Tyranid close combat attacks (RAW), it means that Shrikes with boneswords will also ignore armour for their I10 'Hammer of Wrath' attacks. I'll just let that one sink in for a minute.

"counts as power weapon" is not the same as "no armour saves may be taken"
It probably needs a FAQ, but until I see one I'm going to be cautiously optimistic about this!

Ovion wrote:I think Bone Swords aren't power weapons, but specifically ignore armour saves.

ib4 FAQs say Warscythes are AP2 but Bone Swords are AP3

tetrisphreak wrote:Ok going by the Battle report in White Dwarf - they didn't use special characters in their ally detachments. There is hope that Draigo wont' show up to every ultramarine battle. Hopefully someone on reddit will ask the man with the book if special/unique characters are prohibited from being in an allied detachment.

I thought Draigo allied the Guard?