Pre Release copy of 5th edition Rulebook hit our local store today

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**Savnock**

Janthkin wrote:I didn't see anything in either the vehicle or the skimmer rules suggesting that skimmers *always* need a 6.

Really? Uh oh.

If anyone has a chance to find that rule or the absence thereof, I and my LVGT list would very much appreciate it.

**Stelek**

Augustus wrote:So, to sum up:

Tanks can't move and fire all their guns
Generally Tanks will need to be immobile to fire all their guns
Tanks will generally be immobile in cover to take advantage of the save
Cover saves for tanks do not afect hand to hand
Skimmers are not always glanced when moving anymore
All vehicles are hit on rear armor in assault
Most vehicles are A10 on the rear
Most Vehcles can only move 12 (and not shoot at all if so)
Infantry and MCs all run now, even jump guys and jet packs.

Why would anyone play tanks at all? Even regular assault troops can destroy tanks now, where they were invulnerable before (S4+D6<11 or 12), and tanks that choose to move fast enough to escape asasult like this wont shoot anymore.

Forget tyranids even, any S4 assault units could just cross the board and destroy a tank, I daresay even regular marines could probably cross the ground and destroy a Leman Russ in HtH, especially with running, probably in 3 turns.? And units with Krak Grenades? S6+D6, in whole squads, yikes.

Have I made an error here? What is a situation where a leman russ or like battlketank would excel? Is there one?

All good points.

They excel against shooting armies that cannot knock them out.

Besides that? Good question.

**neofright**

I am playing tanks now cause they are good. They shoot more often (no penetrating chart means that you can still shoot with weapon destroyed or immobilized) so you actually fire a lot more often.

Pillboxes aren't as good as moving for better lanes of fire and many tanks really one have 1 "main" weapon (hence the name) so aren't sacrificing too terribly much. Oh and hey, now there is a reason to mix weapon types on a tank - maybe give that predator destructor heavy bolter sponsons to give it various roles on the battlefield.

Oh and don;'t forget that anti tank weapons are getting more rare and more expensive.

If someone is using their assault unit on your tank, they aren't using it on what it was designed for, which is assaulting units and causing mass wounds.

Play a few games, tanks are awesome but not overpowered.

**Augustus**

ok, Im looking forward to trying it out.

good point on the immobile/wd, I hadnt realized there aren't combo results.

Im just expecting to see Nidzilla triumph over it in a big way. I also think the Eldar tanks are totally overturned in value.

Also, for example, I think tanks are going to be really worthless vs the Daemon Army...

**yakface**

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Quick question......

Do scouts get to make their scout move before game starts? More specific.....Do Ravenwing bikers get their scout moves pregame?

Answer decides if I build RW/DW army

Yep, Scout moves are the same as before.

Savnock wrote:
Janthkin wrote:I didn't see anything in either the vehicle or the skimmer rules suggesting that skimmers *always* need a 6.

Really? Uh oh.

If anyone has a chance to find that rule or the absence thereof, I and my LVGT list would very much appreciate it.

It is true. No mention of skimmers being any harder to hit in CC than any other vehicle.

**neofright**

Augustus wrote:ok, Im looking forward to trying it out.

good point on the immobile/wd, I hadnt realized there aren't combo results.

Im just expecting to see Nidzilla triumph over it in a big way. I also think the Eldar tanks are totally overturned in value.

Also, for example, I think tanks are going to be really worthless vs the Daemon Army...

I can tell you that tanks do a whole lot better against them than all infantry. My Black Templorks (Templar horde with grimaldus) got tabled by the stupid daemons. Flamers playing fast and loose and not worrying too much because of the new mishap table instead of just being destroyed is a scary scary thing.

Me: No saves at all? Ouch.

Me next turn: Jump troops? Really? Ouch.

**AdeptSister**

Thanks for all the info. I just had some questions:

1. What happens if you get 0 or a negative number on the Vehicle Damage Chart. For example, I Glance a tank with an AP - weapon and roll a 2 on the d6? (2(on the d6) -2 (Glance) -1 (AP -) = -1)?

2. Do Barrage Weapons hit the "Top Armor?" For example, if an Indirectl Bassie Earthshaker shot lands directly on a tank, what AV Side do you roll against?

Thanks agains for your help.

**neofright**

1. the chart says something like 1 or less and 6 or higher.

2. Someone else will have to answer this

edited out blatant misinfomation that somehow was posted under my name... I suspect Sergio...

**yakface**

AdeptSister wrote:Thanks for all the info. I just had some questions:

1. What happens if you get 0 or a negative number on the Vehicle Damage Chart. For example, I Glance a tank with an AP - weapon and roll a 2 on the d6? (2(on the d6) -2 (Glance) -1 (AP -) = -1)?

2. Do Barrage Weapons hit the "Top Armor?" For example, if an Indirectl Bassie Earthshaker shot lands directly on a tank, what AV Side do you roll against?

Thanks agains for your help.

1) The chart says "1 or less" and "6 or more".

2) Barrage weapons whose center hole hits over a vehicle resolve hit against the side armor value which represents hitting the lighter top armor of the vehicle according to the rules.

Also a change for regular (direct fire) blast weapons vs. vehicles, if the center hole scatters off the vehicle then you resolve the hit from the direction of the center hole compared to the vehicle (albeit at half strength). So if a Demolisher shot scatters back off a vehicle and the center hole is behind the vehicle the shot will then be hitting the back armor of the vehicle at half strength.

**Orlanth**

It is time to chime in and raise a point on an issue that has been suprisingly OVERLOOKED.

On Eldar Skimmers 4th vs 5th Ed comparison:

One of the advantages of Eldar skimmers in fifth edition is that now they can have a formal save, that save can be Fortuned.

All the above calculations should take into account that an Eldar player might decide to protect his tank by making the 4+ save rerollable.

**GoatboyBBMA**

But you don't get a cover save in HtH combat, so if you get there and can smack them, then any normal dude can at least do something to them, knock a weapon off or immobilize them etc. So fast troops will be good, to catch up and hopefully deal with the falcon in HtH. Or at least my nob biker squad with auto glancing power klaws.

**Ozymandias**

But fortune can still be blocked or the farseer can be killed. In 4th, nothing could get through the auto-glance of SMF.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

**Alpharius**

Orlanth wrote:It is time to chime in and raise a point on an issue that has been suprisingly OVERLOOKED.

On Eldar Skimmers 4th vs 5th Ed comparison:

One of the advantages of Eldar skimmers in fifth edition is that now they can have a formal save, that save can be Fortuned.

All the above calculations should take into account that an Eldar player might decide to protect his tank by making the 4+ save rerollable.

I'm pretty sure I've seen that written about, possibly in other threads.

So, people are aware of it, not sure if anyone has Mathhammered it yet though...

**Corpsman_of_Krieg**

Did anyone notice the little section called Retinue in the Independent Character section of the rules?

In short, Independent Characters that have Retinues (Inquisitorial Retinues, Command Squads, etc) count as upgrade characters and cannot be picked out in shooting or assault. Should the Retinue be killed, the Independent Character will revert to IC Status.

Sounds like Power Fists are in for Commanders. Hello, Thunder Hammer Chaplains.

CK

**Crimson Devil**

Played a game today with the new rules. I liked the changes and have to say I'm much more optimistic about V5 than I have been in the past.

One question came up; Does the Reinforced ram option allow an Ork trukk to ram another vehicle? Since the RR allows a trukk to tank shock and Ramming is defined as a specialized form of tank shock>

**ghostmaker**

Can you run after deep strike ? ? is it confrimed not ? (I now stupid question)

**deitpike**

porkuslime wrote:I have a question for someone who has read or seen the book. I also have not seen this addressed yet..

Are there "Get You By" shortened army lists included? Or does it 100% require you to also purchase codexes?

-Porkuslime

there aren't points values, but there are stat lines for pretty much all (if not all) units and weapons at the end of the book.

**yakface**

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Did anyone notice the little section called Retinue in the Independent Character section of the rules?

In short, Independent Characters that have Retinues (Inquisitorial Retinues, Command Squads, etc) count as upgrade characters and cannot be picked out in shooting or assault. Should the Retinue be killed, the Independent Character will revert to IC Status.

Sounds like Power Fists are in for Commanders. Hello, Thunder Hammer Chaplains.

CK

I did not notice that, you are right. However, the SM codex is the first one out of the gate so that won't be a possibility for long. Dark Eldar Archons, Inquisitor Lords, IG Officers and Tau Commanders are all going to be much better protected now. Although with the super-destructiveness of close combat in v5 I don't know how helpful that will really be.

ghostmaker wrote:Can you run after deep strike ? ? is it confrimed not ? (I now stupid question)

Yes you can run after deep striking.

**Stelek**

Crimson Devil wrote:Played a game today with the new rules. I liked the changes and have to say I'm much more optimistic about V5 than I have been in the past.

One question came up; Does the Reinforced ram option allow an Ork trukk to ram another vehicle? Since the RR allows a trukk to tank shock and Ramming is defined as a specialized form of tank shock>

It does but not as a tank and not at +2 front armor, so with only moving 18" you'll only get S6 hits off. Against Rhinos that's a S8 hit you're going to take in return.

**ghostmaker**

K so you can run thats funny how every one got pissed at people who argued that.

**Greebynog**

Just a thought, ork trukk boyz = dead tanks. Even without the ubiquitous PK nob, according to my mathshammer, a unit of twelve with sluugas against a stationary tank with rear armour of ten, they'll average 8 glancing hits on the charge. Ouchy.

**H.B.M.C.**

Kinda makes Chainfists pointless doesn't it? Or anything that's S8+w/2D6 penetration.

BYE

**Phryxis**

Kinda makes Chainfists pointless doesn't it? Or anything that's S8+w/2D6 penetration.

Land Raiders? Leman Russes (I forget what their rear armor is, 12?)

Dreads?

Certainly less useful, but still useful.

**lords2001**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Kinda makes Chainfists pointless doesn't it? Or anything that's S8+w/2D6 penetration.

BYE

Except against units that have all round armor, or at least higher armor - think of Land Raider varients, Monoliths, even Demolishers with AV12 rear armor.

Plus think of all the super heavies.......

**Stelek**

No unit in 40k has AV12 rear armor.

Nobody cares about super heavies either mate.

**Savnock**

Augustus wrote:Forget tyranids even, any S4 assault units could just cross the board and destroy a tank, I daresay even regular marines could probably cross the ground and destroy a Leman Russ in HtH, especially with running, probably in 3 turns.? And units with Krak Grenades? S6+D6, in whole squads, yikes.

Have I made an error here? What is a situation where a leman russ or like battlketank would excel? Is there one?

Maybe the situation where they are supported by infantry when fighting at close quarters, like in real life?

I agree that tanks may have been overnerfed in CC by this rule (especially skimmers), but real-life tanks are very vulnerable to close-up attacks with sticky bombs, etc. (the equivalent of Krak grenades)- or at least the WII ones were, which is what IG tanks represent. They need infantry support, or they will die like the Israeli tanks did in the Sinai Peninsula during the Six Days War. Unfortunately this bit of realism is _also_ not supported well in 40K, as the screening infantry will hardly delay assault marines. I guess real-world armor tactics don't hold up very well against flying supermen from space

Hitting side armor in CC unless you are attacking the rear would have been much more realistic, or maybe a 4+ to hit rear armor with each CC attack vs. vehicles. Auto hitting front armor is a bit much.

Another solution is to add another point of armor to the rear of the more advanced tanks (like Marine tanks). This at least takes care of Marines killing them with pistols.

**Sarigar**

Regarding ICs and Retinues. Does it mean that if you put a Farseer, or Eldrad for that matter, with a retinue of Warlocks, he can not be singled out in assault?

**H.B.M.C.**

lords2001 wrote:Except against units that have all round armor, or at least higher armor - think of Land Raider varients, Monoliths, even Demolishers with AV12 rear armor.

You've just named all three of them, plus the Soul Grinder.

So, yeah, Chainfists and anything S8 or more with 2D6 penetration is pretty much redundant.

lords2001 wrote:Plus think of all the super heavies.......

Plus think of the huge role these units play in every day games... wait... they don't.

BYE

**MinMax**

Stelek wrote:No unit in 40k has AV12 rear armor.

Nobody cares about super heavies either mate.

Wait, what about the Drop Pod?

Also - in general, is that all vehicles? Are walkers now totally screwed in close combat?

**CaptKaruthors**

Yes you can run after deep striking.

Actually you can't. In the description for deepstriking it states that a model may not move at all unless it has a special rule stating otherwise.

Capt K