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CaptKaruthors wrote:

Yes you can run after deep striking.

Actually you can't. In the description for deepstriking it states that a model may not move at all unless it has a special rule stating otherwise.

Capt K

You sure ? I was sure it said anyone who could run can, but you could only assault if you had a special rule that permitted it, like the rumoured vanguard marine veterans in the forthcoming codex are supposed to have.

Would also like to point out, since chain fists will only be useful against Land Raiders and bunkers now...and maybe drop-pods if you really need that extra d6 with a S8.

Also, with the new vehicle squadron rules, it appears that extra armor will be redundant as well....guess there's no need to take spirit stones on war-walkers and Vypers now eh?

I am not sure the normal infantry vs tanks thing is as bad as many may think. Lets consider this scenario, an individual vs a tank with armor 10 on back. We will assume the model is str 4 and has 3 attacks (1, +1 for chrg, +1 xtr weap). We will assume a unit of ten. The unit gets 30 attacks that hit the rear armor. So, of the 30 attacks, on average 5 of them will Glance. Since they are glances, none of them will destroy outright. The average will be less than 2 hits that will do lasting damage (lasting damage being an immobilized or weapon destroyed). This is all assuming the vehicle did not move. If you throw in the 4+ required to hit a vehicle that moved up to 6", that number tumbles downward, to less than 1 hit on average that will do damage.

Now, I doubt units like that will assault with out a PF or some other similar weapon. Those weapons will do a substantially higher amount to the vehicle, but the thought that full units attacking without the aid of some increased strength are going to rule tanks is highly unlikely.

Is there a higher chance normal infantry can damage or destroy a vehicle, yes. Is this going to be a list altering affect on the game, I doubt it.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Did anyone notice the little section called Retinue in the Independent Character section of the rules?

In short, Independent Characters that have Retinues (Inquisitorial Retinues, Command Squads, etc) count as upgrade characters and cannot be picked out in shooting or assault. Should the Retinue be killed, the Independent Character will revert to IC Status.

Sounds like Power Fists are in for Commanders. Hello, Thunder Hammer Chaplains.

CK

I don't think the book actually says "cannot be picked out in shooting or assault." I believe they mention counts as "upgrade character" so that the Independent Character cannot leave the "retinue" to join another squad. The page after talks about how Independant Characters are always counted as a seperate unit in the assault, so I'm pretty sure you can still single them out in hand to hand combat. I'll double the check the book later to be sure about the wording.

Zoned

The main change is now krak grenades willl be worthwhile
and if space marines get them as standard in the new codex a lot less people will drive anywhere near them.
now you dont need a lascannon to kill 99% of vechiles in the game

Ok I looked at the book yesterday and was overall impressed with 5th edition rules, but I got into a debate with a freind and I wanted to check on it.

Is there anything different about the run move for walkers and MC? Or is it exactly the same as infantry?

extrenm(54) wrote:Is there anything different about the run move for walkers and MC? Or is it exactly the same as infantry?

The same.

I'm looking forward to these new rules. My Dark Angels are looking pretty good, especially my Ravenwing force!

If I remember, turboboosting is now a cover save, correct?

Thanks!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

yes turboboosting is a cover save

Stelek wrote:Yak, I can't even read it. It's so long it's a justification-for-suckiness speech.

Mobile tanks = fun.

Bunkers = gak.

Another way of looking at it is

Vehicles as delicate 'asplode-fests = lame.

I agree that bunkers are kind of crappy, but I wouldn't be surprised if the new rules feel more right to me once I get a chance to play the game. We shall see. I like vehicles, and I think that they are too fragile in 4th. Lowering the defensive weapon strength to 4 is a dumb idea. I don't get the motivation for that at all.

I spent an hour and a half reading through the book at my FLGS on Tuesday.

I must say, I was very impressed. Most of the problems I used to have with the game have been resolved.

I'm looking forward to trying a game with the new rules. Hopefully next week!

I'm going to break out my IG and go tank heavy just to see if the tanks feel weaker. I have mixed feelings about the idea that tanks are that screwed because they are now:

A - More survivable at range (penetration table more tank friendly)
B - Have better visability (area terrain is bye bye, it will be hard to hide from the mighty battle cannon, although you will get 4+ cover saves)
C - Rotating doesn't count as moving (can still fire everything when I spin)
D - I don't need to move as much because of B
E - While the vehicle is weaker in assaults if troops get to it, it is now easier to speedbump enemy assault units with your own units, thus giving vehicle assault protection and time to shoot the assault troops.

I'm also excited to try out the plasma cannons on my demolisher. I think the Warmachine esque template weapon rules will now make these weapons rock, esp in the hands of low BS guardsmen.

Im excited too, and I have 3 Demolishers with the las plas combo, but uh..

Aren't plasma cannons at BS 3 LESS effective with the new template rules because they hit 1/3 of the time not half? Right? (and the misses go 4 inches or so?) Meh.

ThirdUltra wrote:
Would also like to point out, since chain fists will only be useful against Land Raiders and bunkers now...and maybe drop-pods if you really need that extra d6 with a S8.

Also, with the new vehicle squadron rules, it appears that extra armor will be redundant as well....guess there's no need to take spirit stones on war-walkers and Vypers now eh?

Helps against Dreads as well (Which only will be played by loyalist but with the rumours of the Ironclad, etc could be useful).

Augustus wrote:Im excited too, and I have 3 Demolishers with the las plas combo, but uh..

Aren't plasma cannons at BS 3 LESS effective with the new template rules because they hit 1/3 of the time not half? Right? (and the misses go 4 inches or so?) Meh.

Well, this would be true if your trying to kill a solo model with a plasma cannon. But I'd argue if you want to kill a solo, fire the hull mounted Lascannon.

Having played quite a bit of WM latley (which has always had the mechanic that all AOE temple scatter if you miss) you'd be suprised how often you can hit SOMETHING with a good scatter.

So fire your plasma cannons into groups of the enemy. Under v4 you'd only get something half the time. Under v5 if the mob is big enough you'll get all kinds of kills unless you roll REALLY bad on the scatter.

It might help to think about how one uses cannons in WHFB, you guess range KNOWING that you'll be rolling an artillary die that will add some random value to your guess. So you pick a spot that most rolls will help you nail something.

The same is now true with template weapons in 40k. You just PLAN for them to scatter, and you can fire in places where the odds are you'll get something.

So Russ, will you do a review of the new 5th ed rules on your podcast?

Get Yakface or another GW fanatic and go through the rules in depth, that might be a really good segment.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Cool Russ, I can see that, especially vs. hordes, like Orks and Bugs. Plus with the template rules hitting touches auto, maybe there is something to that!?

Hmmmm

Augustus wrote:Cool Russ, I can see that, especially vs. hordes, like Orks and Bugs. Plus with the template rules hitting touches auto, maybe there is something to that!?

Hmmmm

Here's another tactical conundrum I was thinking about as I pondered this. Now that LOS is 'true' you can easily see between models (even if they are base to base) to fire at models behind. So, it will be easy to place the plasma template deep in an enemy formation i.e. targeting the second or 3rd unit deep, so the scatter will hit something. But...

There is a problem.

If you fire at the middle units, they will get a 4+ cover save since you're firing through the front squad.

So, do you fire at the front squad and have a higher chance of missing? Or do you fire at a deeper squad but give him a cover save?

The ease at which you can now get a 4+ cover save is interesting. It is hard for me to grok exactly how this will effect the game until I play it. But the more I think about it the more I become less concerned with the loss of area terrain.

The D6G Podcast: We will definitly be talking about 40K5e in the very near future. The details are still fluid. :S

RussWakelin wrote:

Augustus wrote:Cool Russ, I can see that, especially vs. hordes, like Orks and Bugs. Plus with the template rules hitting touches auto, maybe there is something to that!?

Hmmmm

...
...
...

The ease at which you can now get a 4+ cover save is interesting. It is hard for me to grok exactly how this will effect the game until I play it. But the more I think about it the more I become less concerned with the loss of area terrain.

...

The subtle effect is to slightly devalue any troops who have a 4+ or better armour save. They will be paying for a benefit that is is much more available free to cheaper troops.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The subtle effect is to slightly devalue any troops who have a 4+ or better armour save. They will be paying for a benefit that is is much more available free to cheaper troops.

Everyone leaves off the obvious conclusion to this observation:

BUY MORE HELLHOUNDS.

If you shoot a flamer through a unit and hit another behind it too do they get a 4+ save? (Or not because it's cover, and no cover vs flamers...?)

Kilkrazy wrote:The subtle effect is to slightly devalue any troops who have a 4+ or better armour save. They will be paying for a benefit that is is much more available free to cheaper troops.

Aaaaand Orks win out _again_.

The loss of area terrain also adds another random factor to the game, rather than the certainty area terrain gave before. More risk is always fun, but I like a few certainties to anchor all that risk on.

Oh well. The transition will certainly be interesting, and it looks like if there are any rough spots, they can be house-ruled pretty easily (like S5 defensive weapons).

Especially because Orks can be screened by Grotz. Wuh-oh...

yeah...
If your going to use house rules to get around all the stuff you don't like... why buy the book?

Panic.

Augustus wrote:If you shoot a flamer through a unit and hit another behind it too do they get a 4+ save? (Or not because it's cover, and no cover vs flamers...?)

The "through intervening models" save is specifically a cover save. Template weapons specifically negate cover saves.

Well, being about to start tau, I need to ask because I haven't seen it stated, do skimmers now block line of sight, or are they still exempt from that?

True line of sight, always.

Ozymandias wrote:I'm looking forward to these new rules. My Dark Angels are looking pretty good, especially my Ravenwing force!

If I remember, turboboosting is now a cover save, correct?

But remember, 'only armour saves' can be taken against Psycannon hits, so you're still in the same boat.

BYE

xenite wrote:Vehicles as delicate 'asplode-fests = lame.

Somehow implying that this is the only alternative to Main Battle Bunkers.

Hey, here's an idea, allow the enemy to bypass Hull Down based upon their dice rolls (ie. I hit with a 6, your cover is ignored) rather than making it a cover save. Then allow vehicles to move and fire their guns, rather than the other way around. Not all their guns of course, but more than 1.

BYE

RussWakelin wrote:I spent an hour and a half reading through the book at my FLGS on Tuesday.

And I have a couple of questions.

RussWakelin wrote:B - Have better visability (area terrain is bye bye, it will be hard to hide from the mighty battle cannon, although you will get 4+ cover saves)
D - I don't need to move as much because of B

But is this a good thing? Tanks can now see through forests and other things, so now they don't have to move? How does that improve the game, in your opinion?

RussWakelin wrote:C - Rotating doesn't count as moving (can still fire everything when I spin)

Fire everything, or fire Ordnance or everything else. Big difference.

RussWakelin wrote:I'm also excited to try out the plasma cannons on my demolisher. I think the Warmachine esque template weapon rules will now make these weapons rock, esp in the hands of low BS guardsmen.

How does this work? Is it:

1. 2D6-BS
2. 1D6-BS
- or -
3. 2D6(picking highest)-BS

BYE

Just a few quick things; I'm read almost 100% of this and I still have a thought or two unanswered.

It says in the WH and IG codex section under armory (as well as in other books) that "You may not take duplicate items for the same model...". How are we going to take two power fists? (not that I want two of the lousy things, give me a Big Choppa or a force weapon any day).

As well, I feel I should point out the 'Blessed Ammunition' that WH can ignore cover saves; anyone hear anything about that ability changing? It seems a bit much now with all these cover saves flying around.