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Um, guys? If a guardsmen is 4 pts, how cheap is a conscript? If weight of fire wins 40k a model with rapid fire for under 4 points seems pretty nasty. I'm going to go buy another 5 boxes of guardsmen at my flgs tomorrow... and some morale officers!

Narlix wrote:
Fast skimmer or not, it would still be over priced at 90 points, The storm Troopers even with plasma agianst an meq your talking 4 to 5 wounds

Are we still talking about the usefulness of the Valkyrie or are we discussing stormtroopers now? What do I care about points killed?!? Points are meaningless. What matters is which elements I can neutralize. With those shots - you're looking at 4 to 5 wounds without plasma, without the Valkyrie, which you shouldn't if you figure in its points cost -, and that mobility, MEQ's aren't safe anywhere on the board. You can potentially get them when they're not in cover, you can evade them if you must, you can contest objectives or get in some side/rear shots much more easily. 4-5 wounds can result in the special or heavy weapon or powerfist dying. Just chose your targets carefully.

10 Marines rapid firing bolters result in exactly the same number of stormtrooper casualties. This is an unprecedented level of effectiveness for us. A 90 point Valkyrie will be golden, and a 130 point Valkyrie will have ample firepower to support the troopers I bet.

For the same points you are spending on a valk and full stormie squad you can get two squads of regular IG guys with heavy bolter, plasma gun and 2 chimeras with heavy stubbers.

If you say so. Buy what you like. I'm sure static gunline has something going for it as well.

This is why i think the Valk is going to have to be in the 50 to 60 point range to be useable.

Why not for free? To be frank, your notion is nonsense. A fast skimmer that is better armed and armoured than a Chimera cannot cost the same. You want to have your cake and eat it.

I'm afraid I never do cross-codex comparisons. They're inevitably not telling the whole story.

Kungfuhustler wrote:My only complaint with these tanks is fairly invalid but I'll lodge it anyways: I ordered 2 executioner turrets from forgeworld a couple weeks back because in IA3 they are a 54" 7/2 large blast! AP2 w/ 54" Range!!! it's nice that I'll have the new turret when the new book comes out but It is getting nerfed at the same time.

It is not. H.M.B.C. has the right of it, it never used a large blast but a small one. The new Executioner will have three times the firepower from its main weapon.

Angron wrote:Hmmm... then what is "Penal Guard"?

Hmmm.. Looking at the page reference, it's prolly the legionaires sergeant..... who knows, the "Penal Guard" could be the Arbite assigned to watching the legionaires

Indeed, it is the overseer, the guy guarding the penal legionaries.

Kungfuhustler wrote:Um, guys? If a guardsmen is 4 pts, how cheap is a conscript? If weight of fire wins 40k a model with rapid fire for under 4 points seems pretty nasty. I'm going to go buy another 5 boxes of guardsmen at my flgs tomorrow... and some morale officers!

Well, if Conscripts come in nice big 20-man chunks, they might go for 45-55 points + weapons? Still don't seem very useful. Unless, of course, we get the Commissar with those heavy bolters The summary sheet isn't quite enough to dispel that particular rumor.

On the Garde Penal (A2) vs the Legionnaire Penal I think (A1) I think the A1 guy might be the sgt. Garde is the word for the standard guardsman, and I think a Legionnaire is a higher rank in French.

So the normal guys are wacked out on combat drugs the sergant has 1 attack.

Or I'm just wrong.

You are wrong. Those are simply penal troopers. 'Legionnaire' is not a rank.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:On the Garde Penal (A2) vs the Legionnaire Penal I think (A1) I think the A1 guy might be the sgt. Garde is the word for the standard guardsman, and I think a Legionnaire is a higher rank in French.

So the normal guys are wacked out on combat drugs the sergant has 1 attack.

Or I'm just wrong.

Legionnaire is the entry-level rank in the French Foreign Legion, AFAIK, whereas the rest of the French army has ranks like Soldat, Caporal and so on.

Looking at the stat lines, it makes sense that Légionnaire Pénal are the grunts, the convicts sent to earn the Emperors forgiveness by dying in his name, whilst the Garde Pénal is the man leading them into battle.

Or I'm wrong myself.

Or we're all wrong. Hell, this whole leaked page is so near identical to the Spanish rumor it could be a red herring. I hope it isn't, I really do hope the poster of the original Spanish rumor saw this page and that's why they're identical. I like this leak, and hope it's legit, but I'm keeping my doubts until I have my own copy of the codex, in English, in my grubby mitts. I'm just cynical like that.

This leak makes total sense, it's from a GW site for luvapete. Unless GW is making deliberate misinformation in French why else would it exist?

I like the theory that these leaks are coming from the translators. I can imagine that GW-UK holds things tightly but the foreign offices make mistakes.

Yeah, and a hoax of this complexity would take so much effort that it's more unlikely than this being a genuine slip-up.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:This leak makes total sense, it's from a GW site for luvapete. Unless GW is making deliberate misinformation in French why else would it exist?

I like the theory that these leaks are coming from the translators. I can imagine that GW-UK holds things tightly but the foreign offices make mistakes.

I know it makes sense, and I know the only explanation other than it being legit is deliberate misinformation. I know GW is probably not involved in that sort of thing, leaving it to those with something more important to hide than a few stat lines. Part of me, however, likes a good conspiracy, no matter how outlandish and how little I believe it myself. It wouldn't take too much for individual within GW to copy the rumor in a summary page template, add some stats and leak it.

It is, however, unlikely, but I take all leaks with a grain of salt, because things can still change. Although admittedly at a touch over ten weeks from the launch, I'd expect the rules to be set in stone, and the finished codex to be at least going through the latter stages of proofing and translation, if not already printed and sitting in a warehouse.

It's outlandish and incredibly unlikely that this is a ruse, I accept that, and I also say it's all but certain that this page will be in the French Codex, and every other version will see it translated into the respective languages, but I get bored and sometimes my pessimistic mind goes into overdrive and sometimes a stupid idea is born.

(Edited for spelling)

Polonius wrote:I'm going to somewhat agree with HBMC. The problem with the uncertainty is that players are left with the problem of wondering if they should convert stuff that's not available, or just wait 9 months to get a proper model.

It was like the Waveserpent. Everybody that waited felt stupid when it took five years.

One the other side, those that converted Battlewagons when the Ork book came out now have a model on the shelf.

For minor variants it's not that big of a deal, but simply having GW state:
"this is in the pipeline", "This is being considered," and "this is a long term project" would help gamers out a bit.

One the whole though, I like more units, more options, and more fun.

Just convert it anyway. Whats the problem-you still have the minis when the GW version comes out. If GW's is better and you want to spend the cash go for it. If not you have a unique conversion to call your own. Plus often with conversions they can be done in such a manner that you a model wil have multipler uses.

Convert different turrent for your chimera. Voila you now have all the choices you want. Got a burr up your butt to have twin linked heavy bolters today-you're ready to party. Autocannons in a funk, ring them up to.

Relying on GW is like relying on the government. Never a good thing.

On converting, you're better off than Chaos players were with the defiler when the rules were out but no model. they had to build with very little idea what it would look like or how big it should be. I saw everything from zoids to dreads with battlecannons.

Mine was a russ on legs and wasn't too far off but is still a bit small.

A russ with a new gun is still a russ.

And I agree, a simple 'The Leman Russ Deep Hurter is due in early 2010' would make people a lot happier.

So it seems that most of you IG players are happy with what you see? All that armor sure looks nasty.

It looks great! Let me jump on the bandwagon of people asking for an INKLING of when the kits will be due. I am not converting and not buying FW stuff. So unless GW makes the kit, I guess I'll just be boned. Hopefully they have some idea of when those kits will be out.

olympia wrote:So it seems that most of you IG players are happy with what you see? All that armor sure looks nasty.

From the point of view of somebody only vaguely interested in gaming with the new models, they look great.

sA

I wonder if the penal legionnaires will have the explosive neck collars like in the old days? I assume Human Bombs aren't back, though.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Yeah, and a hoax of this complexity would take so much effort that it's more unlikely than this being a genuine slip-up.

That's what they said about Roswell!!

olympia wrote:So it seems that most of you IG players are happy with what you see? All that armor sure looks nasty.

I'm happiest because of the new plastic Command Squad box, plus the fact that Ogryns got some love, as well as the humble Medusa. The new tanks are a bonus. A pretty neat bonus.

[quote=Lord Solar Plexus

If you say so. Buy what you like. I'm sure static gunline has something going for it as well.


Why not for free? To be frank, your notion is nonsense. A fast skimmer that is better armed and armoured than a Chimera cannot cost the same. You want to have your cake and eat it.

.

Calling 2 Guard squads with Chimeras a static gun line, is like calling 2 units of firewarriors with devilfish a static gun line. A static gun Line would be 4 Squads of IG grunts The chimeras means they can move and most likely will move.

Yes the valk is a fast skimmer, that means it can move 12 inchs unload, and shoot 1 primary weapon and all def weapons, or it can move 24 inchs and do nothing. It comes armed with 1 multi laser and two heavy bolters , all 3 are primary weapons. It could move 6 inchs at shoot all 3 but then it won't get the 4+ cover save, the main reason fast skimmers are nice. So the net effect is that the Valk is not better armed than a chimera, at best it is equal, but since I can give the chimera a heavy stubber the chimera is better armed for in game effect. The effective weapon load out on the valk is really just the multi-laser ( unless it has special rules or the hell strikes ect, but those would really p-off some eldar players i think)

The valk has 12 12 10 armor , the chimera has 12 10 10 , front armor is the same , side armor on the valk is better, but since its a much larger model and a skimmer its much easier to get line of sight on . While the chimera does have worse side armor , most shots will be agianst its front armor , the chimera is much easier to get hull down and hide, its also a tank ( so it can ram haha, tank shock haha, well ok nothing to great there) , but it comes with a smoke and a spot light( you know not great but every once in a while). The main weapon on the chimera is also turret mounted whitch means it can always leave its 12 armor to the most threat. The valk on the other hand is all hull mounted so it has to turn. I look at both and they look very even in net effect.

Like I said in my earlier post put the rocket pods on it, and for 90 or so points I think it would makes a good fast attack option with 2 5 inch str4 blasts and 3 multi laser shots.

I noticed that the weapon teams are 2 wound models now and not two guys. I really hope they are giving them Eternal warrior, because if they don't that actually makes them alot weaker. Also could mean the lose of a las-gun shot per a squad, nothing big on its own but it could add up over an entire guard army.

I like the changes but I doubt I will get into too many of the new tanks and just expand on what I have. I will probably save the basilisks for Apocalypse, it looks like they made the earthshaker be always indirect fire with a minimum of 36" so it will just be better on those big tables. I usually play 2000 or 2500 pt lists, could care less about tournaments. Right now for heavies I run 1 standard russ, 1 demolisher and 1 basilisk, but i'm gonna switch that to a squadron of 3 russes and 2 demolishers. I also run 2 hellhounds now, and just ordered a 3rd so I will have all 3 fast slots filled as 1 squadron. The rest will all be men, I have 2 units of stormtroopers but I will only buy valkyries for them if they won't take up a FA slot since I'd rather have my trusty hellhounds.

Narlix wrote:
Yes the valk is a fast skimmer, that means it can move 12 inchs unload, and shoot 1 primary weapon and all def weapons, or it can move 24 inchs and do nothing. It comes armed with 1 multi laser and two heavy bolters , all 3 are primary weapons. It could move 6 inchs at shoot all 3 but then it won't get the 4+ cover save, the main reason fast skimmers are nice. So the net effect is that the Valk is not better armed than a chimera, at best it is equal, but since I can give the chimera a heavy stubber the chimera is better armed for in game effect. The effective weapon load out on the valk is really just the multi-laser ( unless it has special rules or the hell strikes ect, but those would really p-off some eldar players i think)

The valk has 12 12 10 armor , the chimera has 12 10 10 , front armor is the same , side armor on the valk is better, but since its a much larger model and a skimmer its much easier to get line of sight on . While the chimera does have worse side armor , most shots will be agianst its front armor , the chimera is much easier to get hull down and hide, its also a tank ( so it can ram haha, tank shock haha, well ok nothing to great there) , but it comes with a smoke and a spot light( you know not great but every once in a while). The main weapon on the chimera is also turret mounted whitch means it can always leave its 12 armor to the most threat. The valk on the other hand is all hull mounted so it has to turn. I look at both and they look very even in net effect.

Like I said in my earlier post put the rocket pods on it, and for 90 or so points I think it would makes a good fast attack option with 2 5 inch str4 blasts and 3 multi laser shots.

except for the fact that the rumor is that valkyries can drop out guardsmen even when moving 24" at the cost of a difficult terrain test for the deployed. i disagree completely with your reasoning. if i use your logic, the leman russ isn't really better armed than a closed top sentinel with a lascannon. both are armed with a lascannon; if the leman russ moves, it can't fire the additional weapons since it can only fire one primary. the sentinel can also move it's full distance and fire ALL it's weapons while the LBT moving 6" loses 3/4 of it's firepower. also, the LBTisn't more armored since it is a bigger model with the same rear armor so it'll be harder to keep the enemy from hitting it there. obviously, the LBT IS better than a sentinel in both regards and so is the valkyrie compared to a chimera.

both the valkyrie and chimera's role is to get their onboard infantry delivered where you want them. in this game you pay for the ability to choose. with the valkryie, you can choose to get a 4+ cover save in return for not shooting; the chimera can't. you can choose to get them to 24" away in one turn; the chimera can't. you can choose to cover the now departed infantry with a multilaser/lascannon, two heavy bolters, and wing weapons even when moving 6"; the chimera can't (limited to two main weapons and only when not moving). you can ignore standard infantry on all sides except the rear due to armor 12; the chimera can't (only the front). you can choose to deploy almost entirely underneath the vehicle (due to the large side doors) bringing you closer to the enemy if you want; the chimera can't (only through the poopchute on the back). a fair comparison would be to look at the tau transport as it's a skimmer with roughly the same transport capacity. now increase the points due to the better valk weaponry and speed (and possibly the disembarkation rule if it's true) and you've got a fair price. the $$$ cost is a different story, lol.

WOOOT!

That special Ogryn Nork Degog is back with 4 wounds! and 4 attacks!

Necros wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Yeah, and a hoax of this complexity would take so much effort that it's more unlikely than this being a genuine slip-up.

That's what they said about Roswell!!

Tell me about it! I was getting a late night snack at my fridge and Elvis told me all about it. He's actually a pretty nice guy, but I think he took the rest of my ice cream.

Necros wrote:I like the changes but I doubt I will get into too many of the new tanks and just expand on what I have. I will probably save the basilisks for Apocalypse, it looks like they made the earthshaker be always indirect fire with a minimum of 36" so it will just be better on those big tables. ...

They most likely removed the direct fire mode because it is superfluous in 5th edition. Page 58, Ordnance Barrage weapons. You can always choose to fire an ordnance barrage weapon directly and ignore the minimum range.


I personally don't like the apparent new implementation of heavy weapons team, but I can see why they did it. It simplifies how the team is handled, even if it does produce some illogical results.

I kind of always ran my HW teams as a single 2 wound model that got to shoot a lasgun and a heavy. I put a 2nd model on the big round base and when the HW team takes a wound I remove the lasgun guy.

So, with the new rules when you roll for armor saves if there's a team in a unit you roll for 9 saves now instead of 10?

And will you get to fire the hW AND the lasgun or no?

Necros wrote:I kind of always ran my HW teams as a single 2 wound model that got to shoot a lasgun and a heavy. I put a 2nd model on the big round base and when the HW team takes a wound I remove the lasgun guy.

Did you remove the whole team when it took a single S6+ wound? If not, you weren't running it as a 2 wound model; you were doing what you were supposed to.

Scottywan82 wrote:And will you get to fire the hW AND the lasgun or no?

Aw crap. I didn't even think about this, or the overkill thing.

This is going to be a serious nerf to heavy weapons teams.

What will we do without that extra str 3 shot?

Ok that sounds totally facetious, but I'm being serious...

warboss wrote:

except for the fact that the rumor is that valkyries can drop out guardsmen even when moving 24" at the cost of a difficult terrain test for the deployed. i disagree completely with your reasoning. if i use your logic, the leman russ isn't really better armed than a closed top sentinel with a lascannon. both are armed with a lascannon; if the leman russ moves, it can't fire the additional weapons since it can only fire one primary. the sentinel can also move it's full distance and fire ALL it's weapons while the LBT moving 6" loses 3/4 of it's firepower. also, the LBTisn't more armored since it is a bigger model with the same rear armor so it'll be harder to keep the enemy from hitting it there. obviously, the LBT IS better than a sentinel in both regards and so is the valkyrie compared to a chimera. .

Oh come on, Thats not even close to what said. While the Las-Cannon on a leman russ is a Primary weapon you are intentionally ignoring the fact the Leman Russ has a Battle Cannon. Currently a correctly equip Russ is only losing a las-cannon shot, a shot it won't make anyway,even standing still, since its armed with an Ordanace weapon , the reason you buy a MBTLR. and why would you use a 80 some point sentinel anyway?. The two things you are comparing do two very diffrent things, The valk and chimera are both transport options, they do the same role.

Basicly fast skimmers transports have previously only shown up in two other armies , raiders in the dark eldar, and wave serpents and falcons in the eldar army. Like I said in a Prior post, the falcon is better than the valk, but people are basicly saying they should cost the same. The cost of the transport really need to match what it will do on average and what infantry it can carry. for 120 ish points its has a twin linked scatter laser (basicly bs 4) twin-linked catapults, and can have a 36 inch of movement. and is more surviable than the valk with the same armor. The wave serpent can carry assault troops, or really shooty short range murder teams ( fire dragons) that kill MEQ or Tanks with ease. The Valk is going to Carry decent short range shooty troops, Its not hauling a team armed with melta guns, its not hauling power weapon armed banshee's,. I mean there is nothing in the IG army you can put in it that would make it cost close to the points of a wave serpent. i won't mention the raider its points cost is 10 years old and from 2 editions ago.

warboss wrote:
both the valkyrie and chimera's role is to get their onboard infantry delivered where you want them. in this game you pay for the ability to choose. with the valkryie, you can choose to get a 4+ cover save in return for not shooting; the chimera can't. you can choose to get them to 24" away in one turn; the chimera can't. you can choose to cover the now departed infantry with a multilaser/lascannon, two heavy bolters, and wing weapons even when moving 6"; the chimera can't (limited to two main weapons and only when not moving). you can ignore standard infantry on all sides except the rear due to armor 12; the chimera can't (only the front). you can choose to deploy almost entirely underneath the vehicle (due to the large side doors) bringing you closer to the enemy if you want; the chimera can't (only through the poopchute on the back). a fair comparison would be to look at the tau transport as it's a skimmer with roughly the same transport capacity. now increase the points due to the better valk weaponry and speed (and possibly the disembarkation rule if it's true) and you've got a fair price. the $$$ cost is a different story, lol.

Actually the Chimera has at least one turn it can chose to move 12" not shoot and have a 4+, it has smoke. Not sure you can deploy UNDER a skimmer, witch means all the guys are going to have to get out on one side or the other. The rumored disembarking rules shouldn't cost any points, your basicly trading 3 Storm Troops ( witch could be your plasma/melta guns) for the honor of getting to kill 2 to 3 marines, then loseing the rest of the stormies in his shooting phase. You have to also remember that since it is a fast skimmer Imobalized result kill it also , that means glancing hits can kill it. that makes the 12 armor not nearly as nice.

Frazzled wrote:

Polonius wrote:I'm going to somewhat agree with HBMC. The problem with the uncertainty is that players are left with the problem of wondering if they should convert stuff that's not available, or just wait 9 months to get a proper model.

It was like the Waveserpent. Everybody that waited felt stupid when it took five years.

One the other side, those that converted Battlewagons when the Ork book came out now have a model on the shelf.

For minor variants it's not that big of a deal, but simply having GW state:
"this is in the pipeline", "This is being considered," and "this is a long term project" would help gamers out a bit.

One the whole though, I like more units, more options, and more fun.

Just convert it anyway. Whats the problem-you still have the minis when the GW version comes out. If GW's is better and you want to spend the cash go for it. If not you have a unique conversion to call your own. Plus often with conversions they can be done in such a manner that you a model wil have multipler uses.

Convert different turrent for your chimera. Voila you now have all the choices you want. Got a burr up your butt to have twin linked heavy bolters today-you're ready to party. Autocannons in a funk, ring them up to.

Relying on GW is like relying on the government. Never a good thing.

I really love when People respond to posts like mine (which was a more nuanced and measured version of what HBMC posted) in ways that in no way challenge or dispute my statements, but that essentially say "man up" or "stop whining." I know you're not really calling me out, but it's still frustrating to me sometimes.

Look, I can add gubbins to a Russ Barrel and call it my Soddom Pattern Leman Russ Donkey Punch with the best of them. It's not hard, it's not the end of the world, and I'm sitting alone in the dark listening to Fall Out Boy weeping about not having every varient available. Of course if there is a top notch unit in the codex, it'll get converted up. Look at Battlewagons with Deff Rollers in the new Ork book: there was no lack of them due to not having a model.

Defending GW (or I suppose smacking down the cynics) can be a full time job, but let's not ignore a pretty true statement: the hobby would be better off if GW gave us at least an idea of if and when they're doing some kits.