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It really wouldn't help the monstrous creatures much, if ever. Maybe combing EW and FNP for multi-wound models? I'd like for synapse to count for something, considering that it currently is a drawback with no advantage to balance. Presumably it is supposed to balance the overwhelming hordes of Tyranids by making them breakable if you killed the Synapse creatures. Now Tyranids get outnumbered themselves pretty easily with the added drawback of needing babysitters.

I think that giving them FNP and EW would be overkill but would help alot but we would still by the havey bolters and what not so
i say they make the bio-eceltral(sos about spelling i mean the thing the trygon has now) which gives the creatue a 5+ invu save
i mean it wouldn't make the nids broken

Thats awesome!

FNP would do nothing to address the true problem with T4 Synapse Creatures. As has been stated: Battle Cannon insta-kills them all.
I'd like to see Synapse be more of a thought process, giving different bugs different things. i.e. Hormagaunts gaining the 12" charge while in Synapse, but not having it normally.
The control aspect needs to, and most likely will, stay. It'd be nice if the Fearless aspect turned to the ability to choose to pass or fail any morale check, but I think that would be too far in the other direction.

FNP would do nothing to address the true problem with T4 Synapse Creatures. As has been stated: Battle Cannon insta-kills them all.

What?

Page 28 of the Tyranid codex:

Tyranids within Synapse range as described above (including the Synapse Creature itsself) are immune to the effects of Instant Death caused by weapons with a Strength double the creature's Toughness

Unless I've been playing it wrong, the warrior would only take 1 wound.

So i hear GW has pushed Nidz back till Jan 16th to stay away from the horrible christmas postage backlog. it's only a rumour at the moment that i've seen on the tyranid hive.

Regardless, I still sit here, all the time saying inside my head 'January awaits, restrain yourself'.

I think making synaspse give 5+ inv save is pretty good a lot better than FNP because I would never get to use it gaunts... bolters with ap 5 ,MC lascannons, and warriors battle cannon, so FNP would be a joke.

FlammingGaunt wrote:I think making synaspse give 5+ inv save is pretty good a lot better than FNP because I would never get to use it gaunts... bolters with ap 5 ,MC lascannons, and warriors battle cannon, so FNP would be a joke.

You do realize that a ranged weapon has to be AP 2, AP 1 or cause ID to ignore FNP?

just cause their armor save is negated by the weapons ap doesnt mean you dont get a fnp roll unless its ap1-2, its, pg. 76 "any other wound against which no armor save can ever be taken" < referring to power fists and dccws, perils, rending etc .

FlammingGaunt wrote:I think making synaspse give 5+ inv save is pretty good a lot better than FNP because I would never get to use it gaunts... bolters with ap 5 ,MC lascannons, and warriors battle cannon, so FNP would be a joke.

Wow, I sure would love to fight an entire army of 2-6 point models with 5+ invulnerable saves. That's ridiculous, and if they implement it I'll be mighty pissed.

Ripister wrote:So i hear GW has pushed Nidz back till Jan 16th to stay away from the horrible christmas postage backlog. it's only a rumour at the moment that i've seen on the tyranid hive.

Hmm. Not sure about that one.

Black Boxes have been pushed back, but heard nothing about the overall release.

I'm sure we could hammer out a reasonably balanced and fair way to keep low T synapse viable. GW on the other hand...

The cannon fodder needs to be cannon fodder, and the tough killy beasties that necessitate waves of cannon fodder for protection need to be tough, killy beasties. An invulnerable save would be nonsensical and against the theme of the army if it applied to every model, rather thn just the larger ones. Army wide Invulnerable saves aren't really the realm of Tyranids anyway, unless those saves were tied to being a synapse creature, and the strength of the save depended on the strength of that creatures synapse, and you wanted to use an army that consisted primarily of Synapse Creatures.

I was more referring to the idea that in the new book they might replace the no instant death with FNP. That was how I was envisioning it, and that would be a serious downgrade for all the T4, multi-wound bugs.

It looks like everyone understood that. The problem is that giving all the little stuff FNP is absurdly broken. 5 point (or 4 point, if rumors are to be believed) models should not have a 4+ save that's tough to ignore.

I think the whole "no instant death in synapse range" was a mistake. It didn't make the unit it was supposed to benifit (Warriors) any better.

Two things need to happen with the Tyranids:

Remove "No Instant Death" from the codex, is it horribly broken for a Force Weapon to be able to kill a Carnifex? Or any of the various other models out there that can cause instant death? Right now those abilities are wasted because most creatures with high toughness and multiple wounds laugh at them. A toughness 6 creature can still be absolutely effective without the "No Instant Kill Rule" because the list of things that can do that are so low, they won't have to worry about it that often.

Make Warriors Toughness 5 and 4+ armor save, base, period. They will be effective if they have some good shooting options, leaping that confers fleet, and cheap gaunts that give cover saves.

i gotta paint my WHOLE nid army before january...... otherwise no new models.....

but back on topic, any rumours on special cahrs? i really wanted old one eye :(

Are you really crying that an army with no tanks, very few armor saves that beat a bolter and no invole saves has an ability that lets it survive past turn three? If Tyranids don't keep the no-instant-death rule then fexes and Tyrants better become walkers with 13 armor and fleet to make up for everything else dieing turn one.

Kwosge wrote:Are you really crying that an army with no tanks, very few armor saves that beat a bolter and no invole saves has an ability that lets it survive past turn three? If Tyranids don't keep the no-instant-death rule then fexes and Tyrants better become walkers with 13 armor and fleet to make up for everything else dieing turn one.

Gw already got everybody to buy six new plastic Carnifexes each last time around. Nidzilla was the carrot. Now they are gonna punish you for taking the bait...

Wrong.

Alessio Cavatore wrote:"The new book will let players field even more Carnifexes than before"

Kwosge wrote:Are you really crying that an army with no tanks, very few armor saves that beat a bolter and no invole saves has an ability that lets it survive past turn three? If Tyranids don't keep the no-instant-death rule then fexes and Tyrants better become walkers with 13 armor and fleet to make up for everything else dieing turn one.

What really threatens toughness 6+ creatures in the game right now? Last time I checked, there where no str. 12 guns.

The thing that has always kept Monstrous Creatures alive in the Tyranid books has been high toughness, plenty of wounds, and cover saves. Things that are still available to them today. The "no instant death" rule only really helps one creature, Warriors. Everything else in the codex is either one wound or has a 6+ toughness, making th rule irrelevant for those models.

I can make the same argument towards the Deamons Codex as well.

The "no instant death" rule only really helps one creature, Warriors.

Forgot zoanthropes, ravenors, biovors and lictors.

Still, I think EW will be removed and hope points and/or stats are redone to compensate.

And Broodlords.
Big bugs are still vulnerable to the same weapons they have always been, namely, plasma/melta/lascannons/etc, etc etc. The weapons people are taking multiples of these days to take care of tanks. They aren't particularly tough when your opponent is guaranteed to have ranged counters to them. But no one would ever take warriors if they weren't immune to instant death at T4. If they weren't, then any battlecannon shot could vaporize an entire unit or warriors on the spot, and we don't get cybork bodies or iron halos or what have you to stop it. With Warriors so easy to kill without it there would be no reason to use them for synapse.

If you want a fluff reason to keep it, how can a force weapon destroy the mind of an opponent that has no individual mind at all? Not that I'm particularly enthused about everyone and their mothers brothers sisters second cousin married-to-a-goats twice removed step-granduncle getting Eternal Warrior, but Tyranids definitely don't need to get any more fragile than they already are.

Zoanthropes are slow and have an invulnerable save, and are more of a support unit that doesn't take that much fire.

Ravenors are quick enough to out pace things within synapse.

Biovors are rarely fielded, but if they where they can hide easily.

Lictors by their very nature are hardly ever in synapse range.

Broodlords cost the same as a Space Marine Captain, he is fine (though he should have fleet).

Big bugs are still vulnerable to the same weapons they have always been, namely, plasma/melta/lascannons/etc, etc etc. The weapons people are taking multiples of these days to take care of tanks. They aren't particularly tough when your opponent is guaranteed to have ranged counters to them.

Anything with a higher toughness of 6 and at least 3 to 4 wounds are more survivable then tanks in some ways. It may be easier to wound such models, but they are still 100% effective until they die. They don't get stunned or shaken. Tyranids will still be able to field just as many high toughness bugs as other armies can field tanks, so it's a wash.

I played a Space Marine list with 9 Twin-linked Multimeltas and 2 Twin-linked Lascannons against a Tyranid list with 3 Carnifexes and Walking Hive Tyrant with full guard, it too all of my shooting and I was still unable to kill the third Carnifex. They where all fully upgraded and gave each other cover saves, and their shooting was able to stun my tanks. Nidzilla is still a competitive list for a reason, I don't know where this idea of MC = Fragile came from.

ut no one would ever take warriors if they weren't immune to instant death at T4. If they weren't, then any battlecannon shot could vaporize an entire unit or warriors on the spot, and we don't get cybork bodies or iron halos or what have you to stop it. With Warriors so easy to kill without it there would be no reason to use them for synapse.

That is why I argue for toughness 5 warriors. And that is combined with 4+ cover save they would be getting with their rumored 3 point gaunts. They Gaunt/ Warrior combo is supposed to support each other like that.

I also assume that everything in the codex is going to get a point reduction to match the other 5th edition books.

If you want a fluff reason to keep it, how can a force weapon destroy the mind of an opponent that has no individual mind at all? Not that I'm particularly enthused about everyone and their mothers brothers sisters second cousin married-to-a-goats twice removed step-granduncle getting Eternal Warrior, but Tyranids definitely don't need to get any more fragile than they already are.

I think a Librarian with 3-4 attacks on the charge that needs a 6 to wound, and contend with Shadow of the Warp sometimes to pass a test, should be rewarded for the risk to do so.

EW is getting passed around too often these days and it limits the effectiveness of things designed to cause instant death. Tyranids don't need it. They need units that are good and they need those units to be cheap enough to be fielded in massed numbers.

What if a walking hive tyrant, a flying hive tyrant, 3 units of 6 warriors, 200 gaunts, and 6 carnifexes fit into 2000 points. That's where I see the Tyranids going.

CT GAMER wrote:

Kwosge wrote:Are you really crying that an army with no tanks, very few armor saves that beat a bolter and no invole saves has an ability that lets it survive past turn three? If Tyranids don't keep the no-instant-death rule then fexes and Tyrants better become walkers with 13 armor and fleet to make up for everything else dieing turn one.

Gw already got everybody to buy six new plastic Carnifexes each last time around. Nidzilla was the carrot. Now they are gonna punish you for taking the bait...

ROFL if anything this was a head start if rumours are true i'm buying 3 more fex's over the 6 i already have soon.

Btw force weapons shouldn't work on nidz because "shadow on the warp" effect the tyranids use in fluff makes all enemy powers screwy. Like how astropathes don't work then tyranids get close they block the power

Ok I totally agree with the fluff that force weapons shouldn't work on nids, it makes sense. Unlike how they don't work on daemons. I know giving gaunts a 5+ inv save wouldn't work but I was just listing some idea I had.

MC is the only compettative list because everything else dies to fast or is over prived. The only other list that is viable is a quire list but then you're using 3 T4 models that rely on cover saves because people know to pop em.

A 6+ invole save is a joke. If you are really saying that a 6+ invole save is something to count on then give SMs 6+ armor saves. Tyranids only get invole saves on 2 models. They are only taken to have the 2+ armor save and wings or because there is no option to not take them.
Stop crying because you are a bad player. Just roll with max number of Termies with THs and SS in LRs with the Salamander HQ for rerolls and paste the Nid army. There in two seconds I just wrote you a instant win nid list.

So, stealer shock is no longer effective?
im pretty sure it is, and still works wonders against most armies

I actually find nidzilla lists easier to kill than swarmnids.
All you need to do is lead them about for a few turns working wounds from them.

A genestealer list is a joke. It's a one trick pony unit. It eithor wins combat and then dies in the shooting phase thanks to no consolidation or dies in CC thanks to fearless rules. They cost more than a SM, have a lower armor save, no gun, bad rending and can't even use their I6 unless you take away their FTs. FT are their best upgrade.
I field 2 sets of 17 point stealers, one 7man FT and one 7 man FH, in my quior army and they don't last in CC unless they win CC and they have to do it alown because i cant risk Fearless wounds. Hormagaunts are better than genestealers. A tooled out 15 pt brood hits and wounds on 3s and has I5 with FHs and it's cheaper than genestealers and has 12" charge. That means one less turn hoofing it. The only reason to take genestealers over hormagaunts is because you don't need synapse or because of FTs.