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Aren't Lascannons supposed to, in fluff, be an anti-tank weapon?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Grog wrote:And Necrons need a real way to kill vehicles.

Imagine a SM or IG army forced to kill vehicles with lascannons. That's pretty much what Necrons have to do now.

One may reasonably assume that the Necron Destroyers will be updated to have an anti-tank option, along with the Monoliths' "big gun".

SM and IG forced to use anti-tank Lascannons to kill vehicles? How horrible!

SM and IG also have access to S10 artillery, meltas and multi-meltas, TL ACs for popping transports, etc...

That said, Necrons do have a very potent transport-popping capability in the form of destroyers. 15 BS4 S6 shots against side armor is generally pretty damn good. And the PW is AP1 under the whole, and since you need it to be under the hole to qualify as a real S9 hit, it's sadly our best option for taking out high armor from a distance when we can't force a side armor shot. C'Tan are all right against LRs in the unlikely situation that my opponent didn't move it at cruising speed to dump off it stabby cargo. And even then, I'd rather have the C'Tan get the KP off the termies.

I fully expect H. Destroyers to be moved into the same category as Destroyers, with the Heavy Gauss Cannon being a wargear upgrade to the gauss cannon for like 15 or 20 points as an S9 or 10 AP1 36 inch range profile. Presumably that H. Support slot will be filled by new TS varieties and the Necromancer walker. I also anticipate a point reduction all around on destroyers, because GW likes selling more models, so I'm gonna go ahead and guess 40/model.

Actually I'd love to see Destroyers be open-topped fast skimmers with AV10 all around like landspeeders instead of jetbikes, especially if they stay at 50 points. I hate seeing 50 point models that I can only take in groups of 5 die to freaking bolter fire.

Ostrakon wrote:I fully expect H. Destroyers to be moved into the same category as Destroyers, with the Heavy Gauss Cannon being a wargear upgrade to the gauss cannon for like 15 or 20 points as an S9 or 10 AP1 36 inch range profile. Presumably that H. Support slot will be filled by new TS varieties and the Necromancer walker. I also anticipate a point reduction all around on destroyers, because GW likes selling more models, so I'm gonna go ahead and guess 40/model.

Would they remain heavy support then or fast attack? Seems a bit off kilter to have a fast attack with a heavy weapon.

Kevin949 wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:I fully expect H. Destroyers to be moved into the same category as Destroyers, with the Heavy Gauss Cannon being a wargear upgrade to the gauss cannon for like 15 or 20 points as an S9 or 10 AP1 36 inch range profile. Presumably that H. Support slot will be filled by new TS varieties and the Necromancer walker. I also anticipate a point reduction all around on destroyers, because GW likes selling more models, so I'm gonna go ahead and guess 40/model.

Would they remain heavy support then or fast attack? Seems a bit off kilter to have a fast attack with a heavy weapon.

Not at all, could be like, 1 H.Destroyer upgrade per 3 destroyers in the group or something akin to that.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Grog wrote:And Necrons need a real way to kill vehicles.

Imagine a SM or IG army forced to kill vehicles with lascannons. That's pretty much what Necrons have to do now.

One may reasonably assume that the Necron Destroyers will be updated to have an anti-tank option, along with the Monoliths' "big gun".

SM and IG forced to use anti-tank Lascannons to kill vehicles? How horrible!

Because the allmighty vehicle killing Lascannon is just everywhere while melta weapons languish in obscurity.

Mixed weapons are rarely good ideas without also being able to split fire. That would be very similar to taking a Devastator squad with 3 HBs and one LC. How often do you see that?

Destroyers are good against AV 10, but struggle against 11 or higher. 1.66 glance hits and 1.66 pen hits from a full 250 points of Destroyers with no AP 1 bonus means you kill almost a full Rhino per round. You may as well not bother shooting AV 12 at all. The Whip is the best anti-tank weapon Necrons have by a substantial margin, but you still have to hit squarely with it.

The current Necron army depends so heavily on Destroyers to kill things. I'd be leery of a change that made me take Destroyers and Heavy Ds in the same slot. Same with Landspeeder-style Destroyers. Less vulnerable to bolters, much more vulnerable to HBs, ACs, Multilasers, and anything else that can muster S6 or higher but not AP 3. Plus the side effects of being a squadron, and incorporating some kind of WBB for a vehicle.

Kevin949 wrote: Seems a bit off kilter to have a fast attack with a heavy weapon.

You mean like an Eldar Vyper with a Brightlance & Shuricannon, or a SM Landspeeder with Multi-Melta & Assault Cannon, or an IG Sentinel with Lascannon? Or an IG Vendetta carrying 3 twin-linked Lascannon?

____

The Grog wrote:Because the allmighty vehicle killing Lascannon is just everywhere while melta weapons languish in obscurity.

Over the entirety of 3rd Edition, I think I can count the number of times I saw opponents field Meltas on one hand, whereas the number of Lascannon on the board rarely dropped below a half-dozen in those armies able to take them. Necrons being forced to fight differently from other armies is NOT a bad thing. It's what makes them Necrons.

BTW, how many Meltas can Nids take?

The Grog wrote:Mixed weapons are rarely good ideas without also being able to split fire. That would be very similar to taking a Devastator squad with 3 HBs and one LC. How often do you see that?

In a 10-man Devastator Squad able to Combat Squad, that loadout wouid be nearly optimal against horde.

The Grog wrote:The current Necron army depends so heavily on Destroyers to kill things. I'd be leery of a change that made me take Destroyers and Heavy Ds in the same slot.

There's nothing wrong with that, given that Necrons are likely to see very substantial changes in the structure, capability and function of practically everything in their list.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kevin949 wrote: Seems a bit off kilter to have a fast attack with a heavy weapon.

You mean like an Eldar Vyper with a Brightlance & Shuricannon, or a SM Landspeeder with Multi-Melta & Assault Cannon, or an IG Sentinel with Lascannon? Or an IG Vendetta carrying 3 twin-linked Lascannon?

Aren't those all vehicles though? Also, you don't have to be a smartass about it, I'm sorry I don't know every nuance of every army ever played. Maybe I've only ever played necrons? Maybe I'm still new to the game.

Kevin949 wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:I fully expect H. Destroyers to be moved into the same category as Destroyers, with the Heavy Gauss Cannon being a wargear upgrade to the gauss cannon for like 15 or 20 points as an S9 or 10 AP1 36 inch range profile. Presumably that H. Support slot will be filled by new TS varieties and the Necromancer walker. I also anticipate a point reduction all around on destroyers, because GW likes selling more models, so I'm gonna go ahead and guess 40/model.

Would they remain heavy support then or fast attack? Seems a bit off kilter to have a fast attack with a heavy weapon.

Fast attack. Can't LAndspeeders take multi-meltas and missle launchers?

Destroyers are good against AV 10, but struggle against 11 or higher. 1.66 glance hits and 1.66 pen hits from a full 250 points of Destroyers with no AP 1 bonus means you kill almost a full Rhino per round. You may as well not bother shooting AV 12 at all. The Whip is the best anti-tank weapon Necrons have by a substantial margin, but you still have to hit squarely with it.

The current Necron army depends so heavily on Destroyers to kill things. I'd be leery of a change that made me take Destroyers and Heavy Ds in the same slot. Same with Landspeeder-style Destroyers. Less vulnerable to bolters, much more vulnerable to HBs, ACs, Multilasers, and anything else that can muster S6 or higher but not AP 3. Plus the side effects of being a squadron, and incorporating some kind of WBB for a vehicle.

I seriously disagree that they struggle against AV11. Even if you don't kill that rhino and gotten its delicious KP, it's not going anywhere next turn, which means that your scarabs/ scythe lord is going to finish it off. And against anything with a Rhino I probably wasn't going to be making a ton of points back firing at infantry anyway. Hell, it's not even a waste to be shooting at AV12 or higher, since even the scant possibility scoring an immobilize or a weapon destroyed on a Demolisher squadron is often worth more than taking out another batch of stormtroopers.

It does suck that we're reduced to unconventional methods to take out vehicles (or anything for that matter, our lack of AP3 stuff is saddening), but we can blame that on 3E rules and 3E designers' lack of understanding statistics. When a 20-strong warrior squadron supposedly armed with a weapon designed to be equally effective against vehicles as it is against infantry has only about a 50% chance of killing a razorback in rapid-fire range, then there is a glaring problem with that army's anti-tank capability. Auto-glance was just a terrible idea from the start, everything should just have been rending. (I imagine it will be).

Also, making Destroyers AV10 opentopped skimmers doesn't make them significantly more vulnerable to heavier weapons.

HB hit now has a 1/6 chance of taking a destroyer now. If it was an AV10 opentopped vehicle in a squadron, it'd have the same chance.
Missle launcher hit has a 5/6 chance of taking one out, as a vehicle it'd only be about a 40% chance of taking one out.
Melta hit has a 5/6 chance now, would
Assault cannon now has a 1/3 chance per shot, whereas as an AV10 vehicle it drops to about 27%
(note: I didn't factor in to-hit, as all of these weapons come in BS3 and BS4 varieties)

Not to mention they become almost immune to small arms fire. At 50 points a piece, I feel they are far, far too vulnerable.

Kevin949 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kevin949 wrote: Seems a bit off kilter to have a fast attack with a heavy weapon.

You mean like an Eldar Vyper with a Brightlance & Shuricannon, or a SM Landspeeder with Multi-Melta & Assault Cannon, or an IG Sentinel with Lascannon? Or an IG Vendetta carrying 3 twin-linked Lascannon?

Aren't those all vehicles though?

Also, you don't have to be a smartass about it, I'm sorry I don't know every nuance of every army ever played.

Maybe I've only ever played necrons? Maybe I'm still new to the game.

Yes, they're Vehicles.

I'm not being a smartass any more than you're oversensitive. I'm schooling you, so you should be thankful. Given that SM, Eldar and IG are all pretty common (SM by a landslide), I think it's a very reasonable expectation for passing familiarity with those common units in common armies.

Maybe you should have paid more attention to your opponent's armies. In any case, you learned something, and now you're a little less n00b than before, so it's all good.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Yes, they're Vehicles.

I'm not being a smartass any more than you're oversensitive. I'm schooling you, so you should be thankful. Given that SM, Eldar and IG are all pretty common (SM by a landslide), I think it's a very reasonable expectation for passing familiarity with those common units in common armies.

Maybe you should have paid more attention to your opponent's armies. In any case, you learned something, and now you're a little less n00b than before, so it's all good.

What the fack are you talking about, oversensitive? I asked a simple question and got a jackass response from you instead of actual conversation. And yes, I know about black templar because my friend plays them. I don't play against random nerds at the store as I have (now) invested in my own table (thus making me a bigger nerd in the process). I didn't learn anything from you, personally, other than you're a giant jackass with an e-mouth.

Now to everyone else with an actual response for this question, is there a fast attack unit (non-vehicle) that can take a heavy weapon? Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of "fast" attack? Dunno, guess I'm of the opinion that destroyers and H.destroyers should stay separate units.

Kevin949
calm down.......theres no need to get all upset over a silly game and the rules that apply

fast attack usally consist of a vehicle.....

but alsas this is about necrons....so


i hope maybe something new comes out for them a smaller transport at say rhino equivlent

lets get this thread back on track before it gets fased out


POOF

Dude, you're the one who asked a poorly-qualified question that is easily answered by anybody with an even passing familiarity with the game.

Then, you blew up like a teenage girl being told that vampires don't glitter in the sun.

Now, you're busy calling names.

Perhaps you might want to reconsider why you need your own table at home, along with taking a good look in the mirror before you start calling names again.

Well markerlights count as heavy weapons, in a very RAW sense, other than that SM attack bikes are all armed with heavy weapons, DE an Eldar also have heavy weapon options for theyre jetbikes, so its only fair that crons get one too.

Kevin949 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Yes, they're Vehicles.

I'm not being a smartass any more than you're oversensitive. I'm schooling you, so you should be thankful. Given that SM, Eldar and IG are all pretty common (SM by a landslide), I think it's a very reasonable expectation for passing familiarity with those common units in common armies.

Maybe you should have paid more attention to your opponent's armies. In any case, you learned something, and now you're a little less n00b than before, so it's all good.

What the fack are you talking about, oversensitive? I asked a simple question and got a jackass response from you instead of actual conversation. And yes, I know about black templar because my friend plays them. I don't play against random nerds at the store as I have (now) invested in my own table (thus making me a bigger nerd in the process). I didn't learn anything from you, personally, other than you're a giant jackass with an e-mouth.

Now to everyone else with an actual response for this question, is there a fast attack unit (non-vehicle) that can take a heavy weapon? Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of "fast" attack? Dunno, guess I'm of the opinion that destroyers and H.destroyers should stay separate units.

SM attack bikes.

Oh, and Necron Destroyers. go figure

Are there any real rumors left to discuss here?

Any news?

If so, please convince a Mod to re-open this now locked thread.