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Kanluwen wrote:Tomb Spyders as transports?
Kinda silly.

Tomb Spyders as a "gateway" for Necron Warriors to teleport in, ala the Monolith?
Could be cool.

Pretty much the same thing as far as I'm concerned, as it were. Since they're unlikely to be assaulting anyway, "disembarking" via deep striking without fear of scatter by a tomb spyders is pretty much the same thing to me as disembarking from a dedicated transport.

I really would like to see them be a bigger part of the army. Fulfilling multiple roles, either as their own unit or as an upgrade to an existing one. Maybe we'll see one setup much like the one we have now (an auxiliary one, not quite so good in combat but augments self-repair), a fast one (trades MC status for jetbike, higher initiative), and a Obiliterator-esque weapons platform spyder.

a giant Tomb Spyders?? aleady built one for apocalypse. based the body around the Brass Scorpion build.

rattler25 wrote:a giant Tomb Spyders?? aleady built one for apocalypse. based the body around the Brass Scorpion build.

Nice!

If this new Necron codex ends up being true, I'm going to start working on an all-cron Apoc force. Half because I want to have an Apoc force, half because I'll be voting with my wallet when GW releases a non-xeno release. If these rumors end up true I'll probably get at least two of each kit and another battleforce.

Ostrakon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Gah, why can't C'Tan stay? People complain about them all the time, but they're not really 'gods' so much as they are 'essence of god stuffed into a metal container'.

The problem with C'Tan is they're a rules nightmare. On top of being a conceptual problem. They're so far off the norm, it's just a mess to play against them. If they were just a regular Greater Daemon, there wouldn't be any problem at all.

Wait, how are C'Tan a problem ruleswise? Yeah, they have a couple of weird, corner-case special rules (like how they interact with Wraithcannons) but that's about all I can think of that are actual problems.

Like the Monolith, there's the nonsense of negating specific special rules, which is simply odious in the extreme. The point of 40k is that each army has a number of special tricks that they get to use. Denying players their tricks is simply gameplay-destructive.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Gah, why can't C'Tan stay? People complain about them all the time, but they're not really 'gods' so much as they are 'essence of god stuffed into a metal container'.

The problem with C'Tan is they're a rules nightmare. On top of being a conceptual problem. They're so far off the norm, it's just a mess to play against them. If they were just a regular Greater Daemon, there wouldn't be any problem at all.

Wait, how are C'Tan a problem ruleswise? Yeah, they have a couple of weird, corner-case special rules (like how they interact with Wraithcannons) but that's about all I can think of that are actual problems.

Like the Monolith, there's the nonsense of negating specific special rules, which is simply odious in the extreme. The point of 40k is that each army has a number of special tricks that they get to use. Denying players their tricks is simply gameplay-destructive.

Then take that up with the Eldar who basically stole some of their tricks from the Necrons. Wave Serpent no extra pen dice roll, including ordanace is one I can name off the top of my head.

Wave Serpent had that in 3rd before the Monolith existed.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Gah, why can't C'Tan stay? People complain about them all the time, but they're not really 'gods' so much as they are 'essence of god stuffed into a metal container'.

The problem with C'Tan is they're a rules nightmare. On top of being a conceptual problem. They're so far off the norm, it's just a mess to play against them. If they were just a regular Greater Daemon, there wouldn't be any problem at all.

Wait, how are C'Tan a problem ruleswise? Yeah, they have a couple of weird, corner-case special rules (like how they interact with Wraithcannons) but that's about all I can think of that are actual problems.

Like the Monolith, there's the nonsense of negating specific special rules, which is simply odious in the extreme. The point of 40k is that each army has a number of special tricks that they get to use. Denying players their tricks is simply gameplay-destructive.

I don't really see how this is necessarily a bad thing. It keeps people from completely relying on the same old tired tricks. Just like IG artillery that avoids cover: it forces me not to rely on castling my warriors in cover behind a monolith to avoid phaseout.

I mean, what do Necrons have in terms of special rule avoidance that's really that dangerous?

-Ignoring invuln saves with warscythes and C'Tan
In the case of the former, it's not usually terribly useful. Destroyer lords don't have enough attacks to make them really count, and Pariahs get eaten up since they're only I3. Really they're only useful against TH/SS termies and not much else since they're so expensive and vulnerable. In the case of the latter, they're so damn expensive it's not unreasonable to have something special in their CC attacks.

-Ignoring lances and extra pen dice on the monolith
I paid 235 points for an immortal vehicle that can usually be ignored by good players who are trying to phase me out anyway. Don't see much of a problem here. It's not like negating extra pen dice hasn't been reproduced elsewhere. The Avatar is immune to flamers and meltas, more or less falls in the same vein. Not to mention the fact that against most armies my Monolith doesn't really accomplish a whole lot but block line of sight.

-TPing units out of close combat with the Power Matrix
I see how this is ignoring, but how often do my warriors not get swept long enough for me to actually use this?

-forcing fearless units to take Pinning/Morale
I don't really see how this is so bad. Most fearless units have high LD anyway and are rather unlikely to fail. Who does this really hurt that badly anyway, especially since I paid 300 points for the guy?

-Ignoring wraithcannon instadeath on the C'Tan
Okay, this is pretty stupid. I guess the way the rule works still gives the Wraiths SOMETHING against the C'Tan, but it seems giving the damn thing Eternal Warrior would have made more sense.

It is one thing to negate generic rules like extra Melta dice, or armor / cover saves.

It is quite another to deny players their Special Rules. The fundamental point of 40k is that players get to use their armies' special rules. It'd be like giving the Eldar a Psyker power that denies Necrons the ability to WBB within a 24"radius. As it's a one-opponent trick, you can roll it into basic Farseer cost practically for free, and nobody would complain, right?

JohnHwangDD wrote:It is one thing to negate generic rules like extra Melta dice, or armor / cover saves.

It is quite another to deny players their Special Rules. The fundamental point of 40k is that players get to use their armies' special rules. It'd be like giving the Eldar a Psyker power that denies Necrons the ability to WBB within a 24"radius. As it's a one-opponent trick, you can roll it into basic Farseer cost practically for free, and nobody would complain, right?

Okay, but what do Necrons have that really does that? It's just the Wraithcannon thing, and it's not like it negates the wraithcannons entirely (as it would if it had ET), it just makes it an autowound with no save. And against T8 4++ (on a weapon that wounds on a 2+ anyway) it's not anywhere close to negating its effectiveness or denying special rules like your hypothetical example.

It's be more like if Eldar had a special 0-1 character that, for whatever reason, denied all Necrons within 6 inches WBB except on a roll of 5+ instead of 4+, and that character costs 300 points.

And Lances, or are there non-Eldar Lances out there?

Wow, John - I never imagined your marine looked like that under ther armour...

Just doin' my part for the day!

JohnHwangDD wrote:And Lances, or are there non-Eldar Lances out there?

Well, DE if you wanna get technical, and BA have that new lance psyker power.

But denying the lance bonus is just to make the monolith unkillable. If it JUST denied lances, you'd have a point. But it denies every possible way to increase your chances of destroying it, save ordnance. It's not like it has a rule specifically created to screw eldar players and eldar players only.

Wraithcannons on the other hand... I just don't see why they didn't give it ET. Is there anything else in the game that would otherwise be capable of causing it instadeath?

Basically it was supposed to be Eterenal Warrior....

Except that made that rule up later on.

Back then Stuff that could ID him anyway was restricted to Grey Knight Master. Since he was also S6 in CC.

IF C'Tan ever come out in a new codex, theyd be ET simple as that, and even more powerful.

Monolith and Lances, well that is not like their denying the Eldar something special, just look at orks they get even more screwed by its armor and no extra D6 special rule. Its really just a blanket no way of circumventing this AV14 with tech, only brute force works.

Well, DE if you wanna get technical, and BA have that new lance psyker power.

In Warhammer 40K we have this cool alien like race called Tyranids, and they have this cool anti-tank unit called the Zoanthropes. They all come with S10 AP1 lances that require a psychic test to use.

Don't bugs have a lance * checks codex* yep warp lance
18" str 10 ap 1 assault 1, lance
ninja'd by therion

Ostrakon wrote:Also, regarding the Spyder: if they're going to revamp it that much, do you think they can somehow turn it into a troop transport? I could definitely see Warriors popping out of a giant tomb spyder.

Someone's been playing too much DoW...

Here some new rumours from Warseer, normal text by Spectral Dragon, then Revlid's comments added in italics:

With Necrons Being my top army and having heard a few smatterings I figure I should pitch in.

First, Everything I hear tells me there WILL be new units. I keep hearing a new vehicle, HQ and a new troop choice, but who knows?
I expect rather more than that in terms of new units.

The next thing I heard was that they want to change rules without changing the overall feel of the army, which IMO would be hard to do. I was told to not expect FNP unless it comes up as an upgrade of some sort however, which implies WBB is staying but changing at least slightly.
True.

The forces are going to change in the FOC a bit. \
True.

Like the previous releases, there will be 3-4 new plastic kits, but possibly only 3-4 new metal kits. They are keeping *most* of the old line.
True. In some cases, this is good. In others, it is dissappointing. Still, the more clunky elements of the old line are being replaced, at least.

The new vehicle could possibly be a more specialized version of the monolith, such as a weapon platform. I was told to not expect this model in the first wave but who knows?
A specialized version of the Monolith certainly sounds like a good call.

Other things I was told:

Expect necrons to move even further from marine statlines.
True.

Expect warriors to be one of the more all around usefull troops in the game again.
Well, that's always a matter of opinion. But certainly, they look like they'll be more useful than they have been for a while.

Expect a host of different wargear for the new HQ.
True.

I was also told of the January release
Correct, afaik.

I was also told that units would have options more in line with how the current GW dexes are. (hence the tomb spider rumor in the first post?)
If you mean what I think you do, this is true.

I am not sure what to think of the Necromancer, I wouldn't think they would have avoided outright undead names this whole time and suddenly switch gears.

All of the above to be taken with NaCl.
Of course.

And another one by Spectral Dragon:

Tomb Spider: Rules largely different, bigger model from what I hear, and yes. I heard that it is expected to oh just fit comfortably on a 60mm base.

Immortals: Expect these (in plastic that is)

wraiths: no news yet

Flayed ones: some rule changes, no new model.

With the exception of Immortals, which I have heard just about everywhere, take this with a grain of salt.

As for vehicle I have allready mentioned a possible weapons platform vehicle.

That all sounds great.

Moving away from Marine statlines, huh? I wonder which direction they'll be heading? Honestly, by the fluff, I could see it happening either way: either numerous legions of space undead, or a few indomitable juggernauts.

A weapons platform, huh? What does that even mean, really? Mini-monolith?

I'm just so incredibly excited. I don't see how any change could possibly be bad for them at this point.

Ostrakon wrote:That all sounds great.

Moving away from Marine statlines, huh? I wonder which direction they'll be heading? Honestly, by the fluff, I could see it happening either way: either numerous legions of space undead, or a few indomitable juggernauts.

A weapons platform, huh? What does that even mean, really? Mini-monolith?

I'm just so incredibly excited. I don't see how any change could possibly be bad for them at this point.

Half a pyramid with a really big gun on top?

Tomb Spyders being plastic, on 60mm bases and having multiple builds makes me think they could end up in a killa lanz priced box o' three.

Gargskull wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:That all sounds great.

Moving away from Marine statlines, huh? I wonder which direction they'll be heading? Honestly, by the fluff, I could see it happening either way: either numerous legions of space undead, or a few indomitable juggernauts.

A weapons platform, huh? What does that even mean, really? Mini-monolith?

I'm just so incredibly excited. I don't see how any change could possibly be bad for them at this point.

Half a pyramid with a really big gun on top?

Tomb Spyders being plastic, on 60mm bases and having multiple builds makes me think they could end up in a killa lanz priced box o' three.

Or maybe they'll be on flying 60mm bases because they're the new transport skimmers, and be devilfish priced!

In all seriousness, I would like to see 'crons get some kind of transport unless they significantly revamp the staying power of the troops.

I really do want to see what they're doing with Spyders.

I'm so giddy about a new codex, really hoping Phil Kelly writes it...


I like names like the "Pharaoh" and the "Spinx" to go with their Egyptian theme, but Necromancer isn't to bad.

I know I'll certinaly be buying a truckload of new stuff, when it comes out.

Till then, I have Eldar and my new Tyranids.

Crons will always be my first, and favorite, army.

Sasori wrote:I'm so giddy about a new codex, really hoping Phil Kelly writes it...

Oh? I hope Robin Crudace writes it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Sasori wrote:I'm so giddy about a new codex, really hoping Phil Kelly writes it...

Oh? I hope Robin Crudace writes it.

Not on the up of who writes what. What did he write?

I thought it was more or less confirmed Mr. Ward was writing it.

I thought Monoliths were the transports?

Kurgash wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Sasori wrote:I'm so giddy about a new codex, really hoping Phil Kelly writes it...

Oh? I hope Robin Crudace writes it.

Not on the up of who writes what. What did he write?

He did the IG revamp.

Gargskull wrote:I thought Monoliths were the transports?

Not really. They're not flexible enough to really qualify as transports, especially since they're A) so damn expensive and B) so damn slow.

And needing to decide between firing a weapon and disembarking is not fun. (The gauss flux projectors aren't generally useful against armies I play against.)

Robin Cruddace:
Codex IG
Codex Tyranids (5th edition)

Phil Kelly:
Codex WH
Codex DH
Codex IG (3rd edition, 2nd printing)
Codex CSM (3rd edition, 2nd printing)
Codex Eldar (4th edition)
Codex Tyranids (4th edition)
plus some Fantasy stuff.

And I also heard the rumour that Matt Ward (Fantasy Orks, Daemons, Codex SM, Codex Blood Angels) will write the Necron Codex.

A good way to keep the Monolith super durable while getting rid of the slightly clunky Living Metal rule, is to give it a 4+ save vs hits. It's a more balancing rule to make it equally unkillable for everyone.