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Kirasu wrote:Dont forget that "phase out" serves absolutely no purpose other than to screw over the necron player.. Its like if Ogre kingdoms in fantasy automatically lost if they went below 25% models..

Most likely theyre already GOING to lose being a bottom tier army, why the hell do they need another disadvantage?

Actually, in 3E when 'crons came out, 18 points was what R&D considered a discounted price for a Warrior. Similarly with everything else in the codex. Apparently our grossly overcosted MEQs were once considered to be on the cheap side. Also keep in mind that they each had a 1/54 chance per gauss shot to wreck a vehicle under 3E and 4E rules (statistically about 1 dead vehicle for every 70 gauss shots fired, so this meager benefit - that people often did and still complain was broken back then - doesn't really justify an 18 point model by todays standards).

The problem is that everyone who got a 4E and now a 5E codex got drastic points reductions, while crons got stuck in the same boat as DE, WH, and DH: prices per model being far overcosted compared to their updated brethren. And that's not even counting the rules problems.

besides all those facts, you have to say, Wraiths need a larger unit capacity IMO. also, the Phase Out rule should only be fluff. yet again IMO

I would kind of like to see wraiths as super deadly individuals rather than units. Something like S6, T5, I6, A4, W1, 3+/2++ SV, and Phase Weapons. The T5 is giving them an Immortal's body, as they've got the size for it. Only one wound, because they're somewhat "fragile", but it's hard to Hit them because of the Phasing and thus a 2++ SV. Then they'd still have whatever form of We'll Be Back ends up in the new book.

I'm with Stasis, wraiths need a bigger unit size or 1 more wound. next time my buddy and I play and I take them we were going to play test them with 2 wounds, see how it works out. Their stats are pretty fine, though power weapons wouldn't hurt.

gorgon wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Aesthetically, yeah, but not so much fluffwise. It is kind of wierd that they not only pretty much outright stole the terminator metallic skeleton look, the named one of their main special rules after a very famous line from T2, and got away with it.

Agreed that it's not clear-cut. The army is part Terminator, part Lovecraftian horror, part straight horror, part '50s style evil robots (look at the Pariahs), and part space undead. The fluff is mostly horror/Lovecraft-oriented, but then the game play is mostly Terminator/robot-influenced (WBB being a bigger mechanic than any "scary" thing the army does on the tabletop.

Visually speaking, you mostly have sleek high-tech robots with a space undead edge. The sense of an ancient, dead race is pretty much non-existent. Oh, then throw in the Flayed Ones for some Freddy Kruger/straight horror feel and the Tomb Spyders for a Matrix vibe.

Said it before and I'll say it again...it's a conceptual mess. There's *nothing* wrong with borrowing from other sources and recombining those elements into something fresh and new. In this case, it's a bad blend. Personally I think they need to choose either the robot angle or the horror angle and de-emphasize (not eliminate, just pare back) the other one. Then build the fluff and (importantly) game play accordingly.

Completely agree, this ten times over. I'd go far more down the robot and undead root than the horror root. GW has done that too much before, I think there was a time when GW thought it had to do the horror thing because that sells and I'm not sure it does. DE failed because they went that way IMO. Taking the evil/mallice/horror out of both of these forces and replacing it with something unique and thought through are what could make them.

Because there's nothing evil about undead robots...

Exactly. The necrons have been awakened and are deffending thier terratory. IMO that doesn't make them evil, they arn't out to get you they are out to protect themselves. They are souls seeking imortality this needs some protection from the plage that is the living.

And the odd million or so souls now and then to feed to their gods is just like us eating vegetables?

ceorron wrote:Exactly. The necrons have been awakened and are deffending thier terratory. IMO that doesn't make them evil, they arn't out to get you they are out to protect themselves. They are souls seeking imortality this needs some protection from the plage that is the living.

What background fluff have you been reading?

ceorron wrote:Exactly. The necrons have been awakened and are deffending thier terratory. IMO that doesn't make them evil, they arn't out to get you they are out to protect themselves. They are souls seeking imortality this needs some protection from the plage that is the living.

Uh...

They gained that 'territory' by feasting on the death of 99% of sentient life in the galaxy. The only reason why it wasn't 100% was because the C'Tan are basically farming the galaxy for death. Wait 60 million years, let the galaxy repopulate itself, then feed. Repeat until, well, forever.

And their servants are a race of cancer patients they tricked into immortal metal bodies for the sole purpose of controlling them. They're pretty much unquestionably evil.

Anyway, Wraiths have a lot of problems. Right now they're little more than cool-looking jump bikes with invuln saves. They should really only cost like 20 points a piece right now, since they're so freaking fragile. 3+ save or not, 3 T4 wounds against 3+ saves is not a difficult thing to accomplish.

If we're keeping them in the 40 point range, I either want a squad size of 5 with power weapons built in. That or we keep it squad size of 3, make them T5 and 2 wounds each...

I dunno, the way they are described in the fluff suggests either power weapons or rending built in. I think 5 of them with the current statline but with rending for 30 points each wouldn't be terribly overpowering (certainly less so than with 4 S6 PW attacks at I6) and it would give us a great anti-armor unit.

How about instead of keeping Phase out as a penalty and giving the necrons a points break, turn it into an asset and keeping the points as they are?

Something like, whenever a Necron unit is broken (not just in close combat), instead of fleeing it is removed from play and placed into reserves.

This was already mentioned earlier in this thread, and mirrors a Epic game mechanic devised for them. Then again, the marine players might start crying when getting a single model into cc doesn't result in an automatic victory for them.

Breotan wrote:

ceorron wrote:Exactly. The necrons have been awakened and are deffending thier terratory. IMO that doesn't make them evil, they arn't out to get you they are out to protect themselves. They are souls seeking imortality this needs some protection from the plage that is the living.

What background fluff have you been reading?

We are considering what thier background would be better off as rather than what it is currently

Remove Phase Out entirely. You don't get extra VP/KP's for killing eldar by stealing spirit stones, or with Space Marine gene-seed. Let army fluff hindrances be kept in fluff. The story now for it could be that Necrons have awakened in force and now commit themselves to full out battles as the latest story tidbits say as per Damnos, the Necrons fielding a massive force to take the area, not some small raiding army.

Giving Wraiths Hit and Run should be obvious. And either Power Weapons or Rending.

Yeah, have phase out be what happens if they are tabled - no bodies to recover.

Ostrakon wrote:Anyway, Wraiths have a lot of problems. Right now they're little more than cool-looking jump bikes with invuln saves. They should really only cost like 20 points a piece right now, since they're so freaking fragile. 3+ save or not, 3 T4 wounds against 3+ saves is not a difficult thing to accomplish.

If we're keeping them in the 40 point range, I either want a squad size of 5 with power weapons built in. That or we keep it squad size of 3, make them T5 and 2 wounds each...

I dunno, the way they are described in the fluff suggests either power weapons or rending built in. I think 5 of them with the current statline but with rending for 30 points each wouldn't be terribly overpowering (certainly less so than with 4 S6 PW attacks at I6) and it would give us a great anti-armor unit.

Careful, lest you end up with something like Tyranid Shrikes - an interesting stat line that no one takes.

Wraiths should have deployment rules like the Ymgarl; they come phasing up out of the ground and rip some stuff up when they do. Or at least give them Scout, for some out-flanking shenanigans. I'm not certain you want Rending; GW charges a premium for it (see Daemonettes & Genestealers), and seems to like to "balance" it by making models with it easy to kill.

Kurgash wrote:Remove Phase Out entirely. You don't get extra VP/KP's for killing eldar by stealing spirit stones, or with Space Marine gene-seed. Let army fluff hindrances be kept in fluff. The story now for it could be that Necrons have awakened in force and now commit themselves to full out battles as the latest story tidbits say as per Damnos, the Necrons fielding a massive force to take the area, not some small raiding army.

BA Codex (written by the same guy doing the 'cron 'dex) disagrees with you.

BA led by Dante and some Necrons led by a lord known as The Silent King are fighting each other when they are interrupted by a Tyranid splinter fleet.

After working together to beat their common foe (there has to be more of a story behind this, I've only had it paraphrased), they split off, since both the BA and the 'crons are both too "battle-worn" to continue fighting. Imagine that... SM and 'crons both simultaneously deciding to not fight to the death.

And phaseout should stay. Phaseout, in theory, lets us have a bunch of powerful, cheap stuff. It was poorly implemented before, but imagine an army of warriors with T4, 4++, FNP, S+P, and Rending gauss flayers for 15 points a piece. Only phaseout could make that possible.

The guy who wrote the BA dex is doing the cron dex? Is this confirmed?

Ostrakon wrote:

Kurgash wrote:Remove Phase Out entirely. You don't get extra VP/KP's for killing eldar by stealing spirit stones, or with Space Marine gene-seed. Let army fluff hindrances be kept in fluff. The story now for it could be that Necrons have awakened in force and now commit themselves to full out battles as the latest story tidbits say as per Damnos, the Necrons fielding a massive force to take the area, not some small raiding army.

BA Codex (written by the same guy doing the 'cron 'dex) disagrees with you.

BA led by Dante and some Necrons led by a lord known as The Silent King are fighting each other when they are interrupted by a Tyranid splinter fleet.

After working together to beat their common foe (there has to be more of a story behind this, I've only had it paraphrased), they split off, since both the BA and the 'crons are both too "battle-worn" to continue fighting. Imagine that... SM and 'crons both simultaneously deciding to not fight to the death.

And phaseout should stay. Phaseout, in theory, lets us have a bunch of powerful, cheap stuff. It was poorly implemented before, but imagine an army of warriors with T4, 4++, FNP, S+P, and Rending gauss flayers for 15 points a piece. Only phaseout could make that possible.

Well yes if the stats and rules are incredibly out there then yes, keep it as a balancer but otherwise if Necrons get a bland treatment *which i hope to god they don't* then by all means remove their detriment.

Necrons fighting together with anyone sounds very off...

Leaving phase out in and instead boosting stats of necrons to compensate is a horrible idea imo.. If they are that much better than everyone else for their point cost then no one will even get to the phase out percentage..

Necrons will just table people every time..

Phase out can never be properly implemented I think.. If the units are too good for their cost, they'll just win..if they're too weak for their cost then they'll get tabled at 25% instead of 0% for everyone else. Its a bad game mechanic, instead of trying to make it work just make them play like OTHER armies.. Necrons are the only army in any popular GW game that I can think of that gets wiped out at 75% rather than 100%

I like the idea that was mooted above, that Phase Out simply prevents We'll Be Back if the entire army is knocked out.

Phase out is a simple fix. Do it on a squad by squad basis. If they fail a morale check they phase out instead of falling back.

In a wish-list I wrote a while ago I figured it would be neat if We'll Be Back meant that each squad had access to a Portal/Without Number effect, whereby casualties taken by the squad were put in reserve, and the whole squad could be voluntarily removed from the board and put in reserve. Once in reserve units of Necrons could enter from reserves using the Monolith Portal or a Necron Lord's Resurrection Orb as a beacon like a Teleport Homer or Icon.

But I like the idea of a squad phasing out on a failed morale check though. Presumably if they're still above 50% then they could be put in reserves, so they can 'rally', but if below then they're out of the game. It mixes Phase Out and We'll Be Back rather nicely. Plus it nixes that awful mechanic of laying models on their sides (though the smart players use downed Necron markers).

Phase Out doesn't work at the army level, but is easily implementable at the squad level:

Phase Out: If a Necron unit [ would Fall Back / fails a Morale test ] it is instead [ removed from the game / placed into Reserves ].

Any variation of the above is simple and workable from a rules standpoint, building off existing mechanics and game flow. It takes no additional time, and requires no additional math, and is easily understood by player and opponent.

Unlike the current rules mess.

Y'know, I'm going to hazard a guess. A wild out of the blue guess, mind you, but one that has some precedence.

We'll see Necrons around Christmas.

Why do I say this?
Well, I just noticed they finally put up a description for the 40k novel "Dead Men Walking".

When the Necrons rise, a mining planet descends into a cauldron of war and the remorseless foes decimate the human defenders. Salvation comes in an unlikely form – the Death Korps of Kreig, a force as unfeeling as the Necrons themselves. When the two powers go to war, casualties are high and the magnitude of the destruction is unimaginable.

Kanluwen wrote:Y'know, I'm going to hazard a guess. A wild out of the blue guess, mind you, but one that has some precedence.

We'll see Necrons around Christmas.

Why do I say this?
Well, I just noticed they finally put up a description for the 40k novel "Dead Men Walking".

When the Necrons rise, a mining planet descends into a cauldron of war and the remorseless foes decimate the human defenders. Salvation comes in an unlikely form – the Death Korps of Kreig, a force as unfeeling as the Necrons themselves. When the two powers go to war, casualties are high and the magnitude of the destruction is unimaginable.

That is sweet as hell!

Malika2 wrote:Necrons fighting together with anyone sounds very off...

OK then you needs to read up on the 13th black crusade.
While fighting on Cadia IG was supported from time to time my Necrons in story line & game play. The help was not asked for, but when you’re defending your home world from Chaos any help is taken when it is given. But after every fight the Necrons just Phased out, the IG was left holding the battle field unaware why they were helped but grateful to be alive.

PS: Cadia is a tomb world.

Wraiths need a unit size of 6 or so, maybe more. 6 Wraiths are actually dangerous, the problem is that they still don't kill 3+ that well and it takes 2 precious FA slots to do this. Something like Rending or a points cost reduction would make them a 'real' melee unit instead of just something that (tries to) trash backfield units. Hit and Run won't do it, because 3 Wraiths still can't kill anything.

And Necrons need a real way to kill vehicles. Not even Heavy Gauss Cannon do so very well, since they lack that critical AP 1. Imagine a SM or IG army forced to kill vehicles with lascannons. That's pretty much what Necrons have to do now.

Shifting to FNP isn't a problem so long as the writer realizes that it is a fair survivability nerf. There is nothing that I know of that you can FNP but not WBB, while there are a number of weapon that you get the reverse.

The Grog wrote:And Necrons need a real way to kill vehicles.

Imagine a SM or IG army forced to kill vehicles with lascannons. That's pretty much what Necrons have to do now.

One may reasonably assume that the Necron Destroyers will be updated to have an anti-tank option, along with the Monoliths' "big gun".

SM and IG forced to use anti-tank Lascannons to kill vehicles? How horrible!