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JohnHwangDD wrote:

Lemming eater wrote:Please Please let it be the A team

Yeah, because we need BA Baracus!


"I pity da fool!"

Did somebody call? This is the Art for our Adepticon 2010 team (thank you to the talented Danny Samuels).

jgemrich wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Lemming eater wrote:Please Please let it be the A team

Yeah, because we need BA Baracus!


"I pity da fool!"

Did somebody call? This is the Art for our Adepticon 2010 team (thank you to the talented Danny Samuels).

New 'cron special character.

HQ
Barakus - 230 points
WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W3 I4 A4 3+/3++ saves
Special rules: Necron, Independent Character, Pity Da Fool
Wargear: Phylactery, Aura of Intimidation, Gaze of Flame, two PFs.

Pita Da Fool: All units attempting to shoot at or assault Barakus or any unit containing him must pass an Ld test with a -1 modifier.

Aura of Intimidation: As Nightmare Shroud, except Barakus can force one unit who makes his Ld test reroll it.

I really hope they change the basic warrior stats, which are currently almost exactly MEq - boring boring.

I'd like to see them T5 with a 4+ save, myself.

NecronLord3 wrote:I'd like to see them T5 with a 4+ save, myself.

You know, on the spine of the current 'dex, it says "Their number is legion, their name is death."

And yet we only end up fielding about 40-50 models at 2000 points... something is wrong with that. As I understand it, however, GW doesn't like changing statlines much.

Honestly, I'd be okay with T4 or even T3 4+ if they were cheaper, especially factoring in the drawbacks of melee and phaseout, but factoring in FNP and whatever cool thing gauss weapons will end up doing. Then make the elite units much more sturdy, like Immortals could keep their current statline.

I think a T3/4, 4+ warrior with rending gauss flayer, FNP and S+P is reasonably costed at 12-3 points: a little more than a fire warrior but still at a discount thanks to phaseout. Make them WS2 as well.

After Orks, etc., I think it's pretty much a given that basic Necron Warriors will get cheaper in any redo. I don't know that they'll be 12-13 pts, but 15 pts is well within reason. Consider something like this:

WS2 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I3 A2 Sv4++ Ld10 FNP S&P Phaseout

Phaseout - If a Necron unit would fall back, instead place the remaining models in Reserves; Phased units must Deep Strike when they become available. Necrons in Reserves at the end of the game count as being destroyed for VP & KP purposes.

T4 Sv4++ & FNP gives good survivability while breaking from the MEQ Sv3+ - making the basic save Inv makes them hard to kill by PFs and PWs and other tricky stuff; tacking on FNP basically doubles their invulnerable saves against basic attacks

With S&P and a Rending Gauss gun, they have good firepower, and become fairly mobile

I3 A2 WS2 S4 is not quite as good as CSM, but lets them brute force a decent number of attacks against most opponents.

Ld10 is pretty reliable, without taking extra hits from being Fearless.

Phaseout replacing Fallback means Necrons are still susceptible to being swept by very fast stuff (e.g. Eldar, Stealers), but gain mobility vis DS as a side effect. Tactically, this could be interesting.

JohnHwangDD wrote:After Orks, etc., I think it's pretty much a given that basic Necron Warriors will get cheaper in any redo. I don't know that they'll be 12-13 pts, but 15 pts is well within reason. Consider something like this:

WS2 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I3 A2 Sv4++ Ld10 FNP S&P Phaseout

Phaseout - If a Necron unit would fall back, instead place the remaining models in Reserves; Phased units must Deep Strike when they become available. Necrons in Reserves at the end of the game count as being destroyed for VP & KP purposes.

T4 Sv4++ & FNP gives good survivability while breaking from the MEQ Sv3+ - making the basic save Inv makes them hard to kill by PFs and PWs and other tricky stuff; tacking on FNP basically doubles their invulnerable saves against basic attacks

With S&P and a Rending Gauss gun, they have good firepower, and become fairly mobile

I3 A2 WS2 S4 is not quite as good as CSM, but lets them brute force a decent number of attacks against most opponents.

Ld10 is pretty reliable, without taking extra hits from being Fearless.

Phaseout replacing Fallback means Necrons are still susceptible to being swept by very fast stuff (e.g. Eldar, Stealers), but gain mobility vis DS as a side effect. Tactically, this could be interesting.

I think that if they aren't 15 points at their current statline, something terrible happened in development. Something should not be worse than a Tacmarine but cost more than one.

At 15 points, as is, they're bolter marines with two huge drawbacks (Phase and CC), one minor benefit in the form of gauss weaponry and a major one in the form of WBB.
Replacing WBB with FNP is a no brainer and puts them more or less on the same level. We lose the ability to survive plasma, but make it a little less likely to be killed by non-PW/rending units in CC. I don't think FNP is tactically any better or worse overall than WBB.

So from here, if we keep a MEQ statline, I'd say WBB/FNP roughly cancels out Phaseout on the balance scale. In other words, if we were to remove both that drawback and that benefit of being a 'cron, we'd have a MEQ that sucks in CC but gets the occasional glance in CC. To me, this should mean that either his shooting needs to be buffed (gauss weapons rend should do) or he should be cheaper than a tacmarine. Provided you agree with the premise that WBB and FNP cancel each other out - and that is certainly is debatable, I would think Phaseout would need to be modified a bit before they would truly cancel each other out - I think these are reasonable assumptions.

Now if the overall statline got changed to either FW-level stuff (Maybe +1 BS/+1T, -1S on their weapon, back to 24 inch range), I'd expect them to cost about as much as a FW, or a little more. Unfortunately I think this would make the rending become unbalanced as you'd always be fielding a larger volume of shots.

I think, logically, a Warrior with its current statline, but reduced to WS2 and a 4+ armor save, with FNP, S+P, and a rending gauss flayer should be about 13-14 points if we're keeping Phaseout.

God people stop making them weaker, really they are boring enough already, lowering the toughness of an ancient metal being that can repair itself from grievous damage is something that already is not reflected within the game. Already in game play they play like a very slowed marine army that has a slow as hell feel no pain.
I sold my Necrons which is a decision just based on how they play, I love the fluff, I enjoy the threat of unstoppable doom, and whats not to like about fielding Automatons that contain the souls of an ancient race that even tried to and eventually succeeded against the oldest race referred to.

If anything I wouldn't mind starting them up again if they became something with a bit more interest other then having the only option on all their units except one to either be what they have or give them disruption fields, which what are they going to do in melee anyways?

thank god. sick of half my army being metal. such a drag putting them together

@Ostrakon: Necrons aren't worth as much as before because the goalposts for 15 pts moved when Orks got redone, and all the SM Transports got dirt cheap.

Now, back when Necrons were written for a shooting game, vs Objectives, FNP was a clear benefit, and Phaseout balanced off the list synergy buffs (e.g. ResOrb).

I believe that FNP is a simple, and good replacement for WBB. And a minor boon overall. I could easily see Necrons getting a mildly tweaked FNP - for example ResOrb changes FNP to a 3+.

I believe that the current Phaseout simply doesn't work, it's too math numbers. Something at the unit level, like what I proposed is easier to deal with, and builds off of existing game mechanics in a clear way.

Not having Heavy / Special weapon options, Rending Bolters largely solves the problem in a rather simple way. I think Rending is a good swap for Gauss.

I don't think a T3 Sv4+ statline really works, based on how big the models are. I'd rather they be T4 Sv4++, as it's harder to wound, and harder to kill. Plus, with FNP, T3 vs T4 is a real penalty, as now Autocannons and Inferno cannos negate Sv4+ *and* FNP. That's not right. T4 Sv4++ doesn't have that problem.

I wasn't reading you closely enough, sorry. I thought you meant a 4+ armor save, not an invuln one.

Yeah, that makes much more sense. Not only for the fluff (an invuln save makes more sense as their more or less made of metal than they are actually armored), but crunchwise it would let them do things you would expect a Necron to do: potentially survive a hit from a missle or plasma, and more or less shrug off most small arms fire anyway.

But unfortunately, melee units wouldn't be able to tear through them anymore and force a sweep. I mean, PWs, historically, have pwned the living crap out of Warriors - not so much wraiths and Flayed Ones. It seems reasonable that Warriors should have WS2.

Now if we factor in S+P and a rending flayer, that's a model I wouldn't necessarily mind paying 15-16points for .

Ostrakon wrote:New 'cron special character.

HQ
Barakus - 230 points
WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W3 I4 A4 3+/3++ saves
Special rules: Necron, Independent Character, Pity Da Fool
Wargear: Phylactery, Aura of Intimidation, Gaze of Flame, two PFs.

Pita Da Fool: All units attempting to shoot at or assault Barakus or any unit containing him must pass an Ld test with a -1 modifier.

Aura of Intimidation: As Nightmare Shroud, except Barakus can force one unit who makes his Ld test reroll it.

Don't forget:
Special Rule: May not enter Monoliths, shock or teleport!

I quite like the idea of the necromancer.. but the name definately needs a changing IMO.

incidently, a bit of fan based concept art appeared a year or so ago that would make such an awesome addition to the 'cron arsenal. maybe a bit smaller though.

I wonder how necrons would work with an AV instead of a toughness? Something like: AV9, no facings, any glancing causes a wound. Add FNP and/or other saves to bring survivability to the intended level. an AV of 10 would probably be over the top.

Kryppers wrote:I quite like the idea of the necromancer.. but the name definately needs a changing IMO.

incidently, a bit of fan based concept art appeared a year or so ago that would make such an awesome addition to the 'cron arsenal. maybe a bit smaller though.


http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n59/Darth_Skorr/Warhammer%2040K/TombStalker.jpg

Awesome concept, about the size of a Valkyrie would be good. That'd make it feasible but still big enough to loom over regular troops.

Or maybe Stompa sized, a few years from now if the Cron's redo makes them popular enough to warrant it.
Be nice if every army got at least one unique model for apocalypse eventually.

Interesting news. Revlid and Spectral Dragon on Warseer hinted that most of the miniature line is staying as is, so not every metal kit is going to get a redo. Apparently we're looking at 3-4 new plastic kits but only 3-4 new metal kits. And with talk of a new HQ, a metal slot might be gone right off the bat. Eliminating the metals that are rumored to be getting new plastics (Immortals and Spyders), that leaves:

Lords
Destroyer Lord (hybrid)
C'tan
Flayed Ones
Pariahs
Wraiths
Heavy Destroyers (hybrid)

Personally, I think it'd be criminal if Pariahs don't get a major redo. They're terribly underdeveloped in fluff, rules and minis.

You'd think the hybrid kits would get replaced, but now I wonder. It seems like the new plastic slots might already be filled if we're looking at plastic Immortals, Spyders, the big walker and a new vehicle. Maybe the Heavy Ds and new vehicle are recuts of Destroyers and the Monolith that won't count against the total of "new" stuff? Still, those would be new molds requiring a bunch of machine time, so I kinda think GW would see those as "new."

I don't really see the need for new Flayed Ones. While the concept may be a bit dumb, there's not much that can be done with the models imo.

Just for the record, here are some Necron rumours as I remember them:

1.) There will be special character(s) with personality, a slight move away from the soulless Necrons.
2.) HQ will get several levels of command, as featured in the background text of Apocalypse ("gold", "platinum" etc).
3.) Being Gods, C'tan will move to background only. Models may still be usable as avatars (as featured in Dawn of War Dark Crusade), transforming the Necron Lord.
4.) It is a common assumption now, that WBB will be replaced by FNP.
5.) New units (bummer ).
6.) One person even suggested a resculpt of the Monolith, but that is very uncertain ATM.

Kroothawk, per Spectral Dragon and Revlid, WBB is staying and changing, but it's not becoming FNP (although it's hinted there may be limited access to FNP through wargear or an upgrade or something). I think that underlines that we've been wishlisting and wondering so long re: Necrons that certain things that are just assumed may not turn out as expected.

@Anung -- I tend to agree that Flayed Ones should be near the bottom of the list for revision. They aren't great, but others definitely need it more.

Sounds like they're not getting a full redo/restyle ala Orks/DE but just a big expansion to their fiction and range. Cool I can dig that, I guess that emans it'll be safe to stock up on warriors now.

Ostrakon wrote:I wasn't reading you closely enough, sorry. I thought you meant a 4+ armor save, not an invuln one.

Yeah, that makes much more sense. Not only for the fluff (an invuln save makes more sense as their more or less made of metal than they are actually armored), but crunchwise it would let them do things you would expect a Necron to do: potentially survive a hit from a missle or plasma, and more or less shrug off most small arms fire anyway.

But unfortunately, melee units wouldn't be able to tear through them anymore and force a sweep. I mean, PWs, historically, have pwned the living crap out of Warriors - not so much wraiths and Flayed Ones. It seems reasonable that Warriors should have WS2.

Now if we factor in S+P and a rending flayer, that's a model I wouldn't necessarily mind paying 15-16points for .

No biggie - I had a lot of stuff in my concept statline, easy to miss.

That T4 4++ FNP lets them shrug a lot of fire. Models will still be on the attack after a hit by a Demolisher plate, or massed Plasma fire, tho the ability to negate FNP thins them faster. So it's intuitive to use the big guns to knock them down. And following the above template for T5 Immortals has similar advantages to them now gaining FNP against MLs, Battlecannon, and Lascannon - Elite level of survivability increase like a SM Termie vs SM Tac.

HtH units wouldn't tear through, and that's perfectly OK - they're hitting piles of metal, after all. But again, PWs and PFs negate FNP, so it's only one 4++ save instead of 4++ & FNP. WS2 means they still get a decent number of hits, except against high-skill stuff (Eldar & Stealers). The main point is they don't auto-fold in HtH, but that they take some work to clear, regardless of the opponent. But they don't hit so hard, either.

I was designing for 15 or 16 pts, and think it's in the ballpark. Not exactly a MEQ, but a very fair match for one. Overall clearly tougher than a Marine, but not quite as lethal due to the lack of weapons upgrades. Instead they have good chances to survive enemy special / heavy weapons fire and keep coming. Mobility isn't so good, but they're not so hampered by their speed, and survive well enough to get where they need to. The only thing missing is that I'd assume all Necrons have some sort of access to Deep Strike Teleport.

gorgon wrote:Interesting news. Revlid and Spectral Dragon on Warseer hinted that most of the miniature line is staying as is, so not every metal kit is going to get a redo. Apparently we're looking at 3-4 new plastic kits but only 3-4 new metal kits. And with talk of a new HQ, a metal slot might be gone right off the bat. Eliminating the metals that are rumored to be getting new plastics (Immortals and Spyders), that leaves:

Lords
Destroyer Lord (hybrid)
C'tan
Flayed Ones
Pariahs
Wraiths
Heavy Destroyers (hybrid)

Personally, I think it'd be criminal if Pariahs don't get a major redo. They're terribly underdeveloped in fluff, rules and minis.

You'd think the hybrid kits would get replaced, but now I wonder. It seems like the new plastic slots might already be filled if we're looking at plastic Immortals, Spyders, the big walker and a new vehicle. Maybe the Heavy Ds and new vehicle are recuts of Destroyers and the Monolith that won't count against the total of "new" stuff? Still, those would be new molds requiring a bunch of machine time, so I kinda think GW would see those as "new."

As far as I'm concerned, anything that has a max squad size of 10 needs to be redone in plastic. Pariahs are definitely in need of a makeover, and while the flayed ones models are fine, it needs to be plastic. But that's a lesser need. Frankly I'm surprised TSs are getting a kit over Flayed Ones or PAriahs, so maybe they're significantly overhauling the model.

Wraiths can stay metal as far as I'm concerned, unless they get significantly revamped (like 5-wraith squads). And here's hoping those guys start coming with PWs like the fluff suggests.

I'm guessing we'll get another C'Tan, as it seems GW likes having a big new metal special character for releases (Canis, Sanguinor). If not the Outsider or Void Dragon, maybe someone previously unmentioned. New metal lords seem likely.

I wonder if they'll ever do a plastic Destroyer kit that lets you make any of a Lord, Heavy, or regular destroyers. It seems necessary to me, especially if they want to get rid of existing hybrids.

I doubt the monolith model is going anywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:Just for the record, here are some Necron rumours as I remember them:

1.) There will be special character(s) with personality, a slight move away from the soulless Necrons.
2.) HQ will get several levels of command, as featured in the background text of Apocalypse ("gold", "platinum" etc).
3.) Being Gods, C'tan will move to background only. Models may still be usable as avatars (as featured in Dawn of War Dark Crusade), transforming the Necron Lord.
4.) It is a common assumption now, that WBB will be replaced by FNP.
5.) New units (bummer ).
6.) One person even suggested a resculpt of the Monolith, but that is very uncertain ATM.

Gah, why can't C'Tan stay? People complain about them all the time, but they're not really 'gods' so much as they are 'essence of god stuffed into a metal container'. They're pretty much in line with Greater Daemons.

Ostrakon wrote:As far as I'm concerned, anything that has a max squad size of 10 needs to be redone in plastic. Pariahs are definitely in need of a makeover, and while the flayed ones models are fine, it needs to be plastic. But that's a lesser need. Frankly I'm surprised TSs are getting a kit over Flayed Ones or PAriahs, so maybe they're significantly overhauling the model.

It sounds like the Spyder is going to get different rules and build options and (per Spectral Dragon) a larger model that just fits on a 60mm base. This pretty much checks off my personal Spyder wishlist. The same poster said that Flayed Ones will likely keep the existing metals.

Regarding C'tan, I think my issue with them is as much conceptual as anything. I get that they were going for an undead vibe in which the C'tan/Vampire has personality while the shambling legions of Warriors/skeletons don't. But I think there has to be a fix by which you can field a more characterful army without having to field an expensive star god in every battle. Whether that's the avatar approach or a different approach to lords, I dunno. But I do think it's a weakness of the army as presently structured.

Personally, I really balk at the idea that "Necrons are supposed to be boring." You can have a certain amount of uniformity and structure in the army without making them so dull. I don't think that means personality along the lines of "Hi, my name is Bob the Flayed One, and I'll be carving you up tonight" so much as greater unit variety, more options centered on certain units and better integrating the more colorful parts of their backstory (Lovecraftian horror, for instance) into the miniatures and ruleset.

Im going to call bullgak on this, why would the necron lord be replaced with a "necromancer"?

Ostrakon wrote:Gah, why can't C'Tan stay? People complain about them all the time, but they're not really 'gods' so much as they are 'essence of god stuffed into a metal container'.

The problem with C'Tan is they're a rules nightmare. On top of being a conceptual problem. They're so far off the norm, it's just a mess to play against them. If they were just a regular Greater Daemon, there wouldn't be any problem at all.
____

gorgon wrote:It sounds like the Spyder is going to get different rules and build options and (per Spectral Dragon) a larger model that just fits on a 60mm base.

I read it this way, too. And look forward to a more imposing new, Defiler-sized design that isn't quite so goofy & bug-like.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Gah, why can't C'Tan stay? People complain about them all the time, but they're not really 'gods' so much as they are 'essence of god stuffed into a metal container'.

The problem with C'Tan is they're a rules nightmare. On top of being a conceptual problem. They're so far off the norm, it's just a mess to play against them. If they were just a regular Greater Daemon, there wouldn't be any problem at all.
____

gorgon wrote:It sounds like the Spyder is going to get different rules and build options and (per Spectral Dragon) a larger model that just fits on a 60mm base.

I read it this way, too. And look forward to a more imposing new, Defiler-sized design that isn't quite so goofy & bug-like.

At the very least dread sized. I see the images of them and think 'oh cool this thing is really going to cause some pain and crush gak underfoot' I buy the model and my rhinos are bigger and the thing is classed as a MONSTROUS creature. Looks more like still a hatchling....

Wow, love the "tomb stalker" fan-art above...

I'd love to see necrons in early 2011! As cool as blood angels are, I'm sick of marines...

corpsesarefun wrote:Im going to call bullgak on this, why would the necron lord be replaced with a "necromancer"?

The Necromancer is a Heavy choice, not an HQ.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:Gah, why can't C'Tan stay? People complain about them all the time, but they're not really 'gods' so much as they are 'essence of god stuffed into a metal container'.

The problem with C'Tan is they're a rules nightmare. On top of being a conceptual problem. They're so far off the norm, it's just a mess to play against them. If they were just a regular Greater Daemon, there wouldn't be any problem at all.
____

gorgon wrote:It sounds like the Spyder is going to get different rules and build options and (per Spectral Dragon) a larger model that just fits on a 60mm base.

I read it this way, too. And look forward to a more imposing new, Defiler-sized design that isn't quite so goofy & bug-like.

Wait, how are C'Tan a problem ruleswise? Yeah, they have a couple of weird, corner-case special rules (like how they interact with Wraithcannons) but that's about all I can think of that are actual problems.

Also, regarding the Spyder: if they're going to revamp it that much, do you think they can somehow turn it into a troop transport? I could definitely see Warriors popping out of a giant tomb spyder.

Tomb Spyders as transports?
Kinda silly.

Tomb Spyders as a "gateway" for Necron Warriors to teleport in, ala the Monolith?
Could be cool.