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As to the biomass, do you not understand how much biomass the Tyranids have in reserve? The bulk of what they take from a planet isn't even used by the vanguard fleet. It's back in the depths of space with the bulk of the hive fleet that people do not actually see, sitting in hive ships that dwarf Imperial battleships.

In that case, the biomass is still not availbe to the invasion fleet. A galaxy's worth of biomass fifty years away won't do the fleet itself any good if it can't support itself that long. I would imagine that harvesting biomass would be extremely important to these fleets, specifically because the main fleet is held in reserve where its resources cannot be accessed. So the point still stands.

Shrouger wrote:

As to the biomass, do you not understand how much biomass the Tyranids have in reserve? The bulk of what they take from a planet isn't even used by the vanguard fleet. It's back in the depths of space with the bulk of the hive fleet that people do not actually see, sitting in hive ships that dwarf Imperial battleships.

In that case, the biomass is still not availbe to the invasion fleet. A galaxy's worth of biomass fifty years away won't do the fleet itself any good if it can't support itself that long. I would imagine that harvesting biomass would be extremely important to these fleets, specifically because the main fleet is held in reserve where its resources cannot be accessed. So the point still stands.

It's not that far away thanks to the Narvhal. Tyranids can move from the outer system to the inner system at near light speed.

What is awesome about the 4th edition codex is it gives some insight into the survivability of Tyranids.

I gak you not, it describes Carnifexes surviving the exterminatus of a planet, sitting in the atmopshere-less rock left by the cyclonic torpedoes regenerating wounds. So, Tyranids can survive in space. And a cyclonic torpedo.

There's certainly been no indication that this is the case in the fluff, at least that I've read.

Dawn of War II is considered canon (there was a series written about it for the Black Library, I believe. That may have been the first game), and I do recall specifically that when the last synapse creature within a general area is killed, it radiates a shock wave that knocks back lesser bio-forms, sometimes finishing them off. Even in cases were they do survive, the various Gaunts are immobilized for the few moments it takes for them to land and get up again.

Shrouger wrote:Dawn of War II is considered canon (there was a series written about it for the Black Library, I believe. That may have been the first game), and I do recall specifically that when the last synapse creature within a general area is killed, it radiates a shock wave that knocks back lesser bio-forms, sometimes finishing them off. Even in cases were they do survive, the various Gaunts are immobilized for the few moments it takes for them to land and get up again.

Game mechanics are not considered canon. There's certain things they need to do in the game to balance it.

I gak you not, it describes Carnifexes surviving the exterminatus of a planet, sitting in the atmopshere-less rock left by the cyclonic torpedoes regenerating wounds. So, Tyranids can survive in space. And a cyclonic torpedo.

I don't disbelieve you that the Codex said such things, but that sounds ridiculous... How can a Carnifex endure such an event when the Valhallan 12th (under Colonel Mostrue, I believe) destroyed countless Gaunts and tens of Carnifexes, Zoanthropes etc. with an artillery barrage?

Instinctive behavior, sure, but the thing to remember is that absent the hive mind, Tyranids are just animals, and frankly, it's a very, very rare animal that truly enjoys fighting. Gaunts without synapse control are easy to scare; shoot a few and the rest run. So, no, if the synapse network is broken, the creatures that are no longer under the Hive Mind's command won't simply carry on; they will falter, and then the more powerful creatures will rampage off individually and be brought down one by one while the smaller ones break under the pressure of combat, flee, and are slaughtered during the rout. If any significant area were to be deprived of synapse, it would be a major blow to the Tyranid offensive.

Would that be easy? Nope. But it would certainly be possible; First, train your guns on the Warriors. Since they will of necessity be dispersed, shepherding the smaller creatures along, you'd be able to pick out and kill many of them, which would cause significant disruption in the Tyranid front lines. In order to shore up the assault, the Tyranid either have to bring up more Warriors (necessitating a delay in the fighting, which gives the enemy a chance to improve their fortifications or seize the initiative themselves), or bring forward and spread out their larger, more valuable creatures, which then become vulnerable themselves.

The necessity for synapse control is a psychic limitation of the Hive Mind; I don't expect the Tyranids will be able to evolve away from that particular weakness, or they would have by now. And it certainly is a weakness, one that's vulnerable to ruthless exploitation.

EDIT: As re the enormous quantities of available biomass; That's nice, but there are two problems.

1. As has already been mentioned, it's not here. It's back with the reserve fleets somewhere. How far? Who knows? But it isn't at the front lines, and bringing it forward would take some time.

2. How much of that matter is actually suitable to making critters out of? I mean, the Tyranids might take an enormous amount of phosphorus from a world, but you only need so much phosphorus. They might have a trillion tons of nitrogen, but you cannot make a hard carapace or a razor-sharp claw out of nitrogen.

Shrouger wrote:

I gak you not, it describes Carnifexes surviving the exterminatus of a planet, sitting in the atmopshere-less rock left by the cyclonic torpedoes regenerating wounds. So, Tyranids can survive in space. And a cyclonic torpedo.

I don't disbelieve you that the Codex said such things, but that sounds ridiculous... How can a Carnifex endure such an event when the Valhallan 12th (under Colonel Mostrue, I believe) destroyed countless Gaunts and tens of Carnifexes, Zoanthropes etc. with an artillery barrage?

I'll give you the reference and a quote, because it's pretty badass. Page 27 again.

Following exterminatus by way of Damnatus-pattern, mass yield cyclonic saturation, the surface of the world was reduced to drifting ash, the atmosphere seared entirely away. Yet, pict-logs of the mission show what was first believed to be a natural rock feature rising out of the swirling dust storms. Closer inspection revealed the truth - the structure was in fact a member of the Carnifex genus, which had survived the cataclysmic effects of the cyclonic torpedo, and entered a state of dormancy within which it could mend the greivous wounds done to it. The moment the creature detected their prescence and began to stir, the Killteam called down a melta-torpedo strike from their cruiser in orbit. Though the beast was destroyed, Ariadne IV is declared Perdita, for, if one such bio-form can survive, then how many more may go undetected?

Orks aren't the only race that can infest a planet. Tyranids can apparently do it even after exterminatus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Would that be easy? Nope. But it would certainly be possible; First, train your guns on the Warriors. Since they will of necessity be dispersed, shepherding the smaller creatures along, you'd be able to pick out and kill many of them, which would cause significant disruption in the Tyranid front lines. In order to shore up the assault, the Tyranid either have to bring up more Warriors (necessitating a delay in the fighting, which gives the enemy a chance to improve their fortifications or seize the initiative themselves), or bring forward and spread out their larger, more valuable creatures, which then become vulnerable themselves.

Except main assaults are also supported by Hive Tyrants in great numbers, and also Dominatrices. A Dominatrix is a Reaver titan sized bio-titan, that not only births every genus of Tyranid on the ground, but is also a larger synaptic prescence than a Hive Tyrant. Severing synapse is pretty fething difficult. And equipped with more powerful bio-weapons than a Hierophant. They're just not shown in normal 40k because, like things like Harridans and Hierophants, they're too big.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The Spartans had a 100% fatality rate at the Battle of Thermopylae. They still accomplished what they set out to do; they delayed the Persians long enough for Greece to unite against them. In this case, if every Weirdboy on the ship is murdered by daemons immediately after launching their massive psychic blast, they all die; BUT, they still did what they set out to do.
Furthermore, if every hive ship in the fleet calves; Hurray! The Orks just tricked the fleet into wasting an ENORMOUS amount of biomass doing something that won't have much of an effect. Those extra hive ships aren't free; every ton of matter that goes into spawning a new hive ship is a ton that isn't turning into gaunts, carnifexes and tyrants on the ground.

Shrouger wrote:Not to mention that a Hive Ship tends to have a fairly large crew complement of its own; it may not seem like much, but being short the few million Gaunts worth of biomass onboard could in itself be the difference between taking an Ork stronghold and being repulsed.

So BeRzErKeR just tricked the Hive Mind into doubling the amount of Hive Ships in his sector of space... and he is happy about this?!?!?

And Shrouger thinks having extra enemy space ships above can protect him on the ground.... You are both gravely mistaken.... Muahhaaahaaw *cough* HAHAHAw

Let us walk this through:
1) All the Weirdboyz just died to make a disturbance in the warp
2) Chaos appears and rips apart one Hive Ship
3) Now there are double the amount of Hive Ships (minus the dead one)

Any surplus ships that are not needed to either finish destroying the remaining Ork ships, or further break off into splinter fleets, the Hive Mind has no issue using them as missiles and launching them at the Ork stronghold below. The whole ship would crush the stronghold and crack open to dump those few million Gaunts worth of biomass right on top of you... Boy you sure tricked the Hive Mind didn't you? You sure showed the Hive Mind who is boss
------------

Grrr... I'm at work and I always feel like I am three steps behind on the conversations... I start typing and by the time I spell check and an ready to post there is a page worth of new posts I haven't even read

-Loki- wrote:I was going back and reading the 4th edition fluff, and the final few paragraphs are pretty bleak. It says that there's every indication of the current hive fleets being vanguard fleets for the main push. Now, consider that the Imperium is always said to have the largest organised armed forces, with the most vehicles and the greatest destructive capability. It says that the Imperium would been to increase its Imperial Guard recruitment by 500% if more Tyranids arrive, basically arming every man, woman and chile in segmentums Solar, Pacificus and Ultima, just to slow down the hive mind.

Meh. All codex's make their side out to be pretty hot stuff. Chaos is impossible to stop and has limitless daemons. The imperium loses multiple solar systems from its spreadsheets due to rounding errors and doesn't even feel the loss. One space marine chapter plus a sector fleet and a titan legion shattered a hive fleet on their own. Necrons are self repairing dudes who unmake you with all their guns and haven't even used their real weapons yet. The orks have a black and white guarantee that, united, all other factions combined would be overmatched by them. I mean, even the Tau and the Dark Eldar feel good about themselves finishing up a codex read. That's what they're there for, to make you feel jazzed about your team.

-Loki- wrote:It's not that far away thanks to the Narvhal. Tyranids can move from the outer system to the inner system at near light speed.

Near light speed is slower than everyone else (minus tau). Shadow in the warp mitigates that weakness tremendously but doesn't help your piecemeal fleet reinforce itself.

-Loki- wrote:

Except main assaults are also supported by Hive Tyrants in great numbers, and also Dominatrices. A Dominatrix is a Reaver titan sized bio-titan, that not only births every genus of Tyranid on the ground, but is also a larger synaptic prescence than a Hive Tyrant. Severing synapse is pretty fething difficult. And equipped with more powerful bio-weapons than a Hierophant. They're just not shown in normal 40k because, like things like Harridans and Hierophants, they're too big.

If Dominatrices and Heirophants are on the ground, it's reasonable to assume that Gargants, Supa-Stompas and Battle Fortresses are, too. Bigger bug, bigger target, the principle is the same. Kill the Warriors, the bigger support genuses have to move forwards to take up the slack, and thus expose themselves.

The very fact that Warriors exist supports this argument; if Hive Tyrants and Dominatrices could do it all, the Warriors wouldn't be around. They exist for the specific purpose of giving the swarm front-line command and control. Take that out, and the Hive Mind has a tactical problem to solve. More problems, more chances to fail.

The reason the Ork style of war is so strong is because command and control really isn't a problem for them. The Orks all know what to do. Most of them don't care who the Boss is, just so long as they have a fight to look forward to. If the Boss dies in the middle of a battle, the big Nobs have a scuffle, and they sort it out; the rank and file probably don't even notice until the fight's over, and "Ey look, ol' Grogzad musta bit it, Drugnit'z givin da orders now."

Draw an analogy to the tabletop game. For every other army, the HQ has some function that buffs the army. Space Marine Commanders have Rites of Battle, and Chaplains have Litanies of Hate. Imperial Guard officers give orders. Eldar Farseers use Guide and Fortune, and Autarchs bring in reserves quickly and precisely. Ethereals. . . well, die. But when they die, the other Tau get really pissed. These are all reflections of their roles in the fluff.

Ork Warbosses? They don't do any of that namby-pamby army-buffing crap. They feth gak up. This is also a reflection of their role in the fluff; to lead by example, NOT by giving orders and directing reserves and all that other crap. By the time the battle is joined, an Ork Warlord has done all the thinking he's gonna do for the day. This holds true even for the cunning ones; Ghazghkull was a brilliant strategist, but he laid his plans BEFORE he reached the front line. Once he got stuck in at Hades Hive, his main contribution was breaking heads. Once engaged in battle, the Orks are entirely decentralized, operating at the level of the Mob rather than the army. While this makes them terribly unsubtle, it also means that there are no obvious targets to destroy. Kill the Warboss, and the boyz will still stamp you into the ground. They'll sort out the whole succession thing once there's nothing living in sight that isn't green.

The Tyranids are the exact opposite; their chain of command is highly centralized, and they are completely dependent on it. Break the chain of command, and the Tyranid attack collapses. The synapse link MUST be restored before the assault can recommence, because without it, the Tyranids are nothing but a pack of animals.

I just tallied up the numbers for each of the different types of instinctual behavior vs Synapse:
Synapse:= 9 different creatures in the codex
Lurk:= 8 different creatures in the codex
Feed:= 12 different creatures in the codex

That is not including Genestealers, spore mines, and mycetic spores of course. However, what these numbers do include, and what they are limited too, are only the creatures in the current Tyranid Codex.

Who knows what new creatures the Hive Mind will come up with between now and then. But the point is this: The ones with the instict to feed are the most numerous amongst Tyranids. So it really would be a mob of feeding frenzied "animals" (as you greenskins call them) vs. a mob of battle frenzied Orks. The assault could still go onward towards the food source, towards the nearest non-Tyranid creature, just like the Orks would push onward towards the nearest non-greenskin.

And Shrouger thinks having extra enemy space ships above can protect him on the ground.... You are both gravely mistaken.... Muahhaaahaaw *cough* HAHAHAw

I apologize if I was not clear. The crew/biomass stored on the destroyd ship might lead to a Tyranid defeat at a critical moment. Further, if the 'Nids could make more ships without a severe reduction to their biomass, they would already have done so. This mass-reaction would probably drain a signficant amount of resources with little gain; after a certain point, more Hive Ships are simply useless in a ground assault.

Also, this sort of psychic resonance would do far more than knock out a single hive Ship. It would probably take out or at least severely damage several; while the 'Nids are effecting repairs (which do require a certain amount of biomass that could be critical later), the Orks can hold off against the preliminary waves (the few genestealers the Orks do not detect among them, of course) with little difficulty.

Psyker_9er wrote:I just tallied up the numbers for each of the different types of instinctual behavior vs Synapse:
Synapse:= 9 different creatures in the codex
Lurk:= 8 different creatures in the codex
Feed:= 12 different creatures in the codex

That is not including Genestealers, spore mines, and mycetic spores of course. However, what these numbers do include, and what they are limited too, are only the creatures in the current Tyranid Codex.

Who knows what new creatures the Hive Mind will come up with between now and then. But the point is this: The ones with the instict to feed are the most numerous amongst Tyranids. So it really would be a mob of feeding frenzied "animals" (as you greenskins call them) vs. a mob of battle frenzied Orks. The assault could still go onward towards the food source, towards the nearest non-Tyranid creature, just like the Orks would push onward towards the nearest non-greenskin.

What you're forgetting is that they are, still, animals.

Another tabletop analogy; Tyranids under the control of a synapse creature are Fearless, representing the iron control of the Hive Mind. Tyranids without it are NOT.

Instinctive Behavior only applies to a unit that isn't Falling Back. Gaunts have Ld. 6. See where I'm going?

A gaunt is a cowardly creature. Yes, it wants to feed; it also wants to live. A swarm of Gaunts, sans the Hive Mind, would turn tail and flee from a mob of Orks as soon as they started taking casualties. They're animals; they don't want to fight nearly so much as they want to not die.

Yes, some would attack. Others would hide. Others would scatter, others would flee en masse. The result would be enormous turmoil and panic, while the Orks plow into the writhing, uncontrolled mass and go to town. It wouldn't be mob vs. mob, it would be sledgehammer vs. watermelon.

But the point is this: The ones with the instict to feed are the most numerous amongst Tyranids. So it really would be a mob of feeding frenzied "animals" (as you greenskins call them) vs. a mob of battle frenzied Orks. The assault could still go onward towards the food source, towards the nearest non-Tyranid creature, just like the Orks would push onward towards the nearest non-greenskin.

There are several differences, however. A Warboss can still issue orders to his Boyz and expect at least some degree of obedience (espcially with the makeshift amplivox sets the Meks will probably have at their disposal), meaning that he can still maintain some element of strategy, particularly if he happens to be commanding Blood Axes. The Tyranids, meanwhile, will have little or no ability to follow a strategy of any kind; as I mentioned before, they could well chase the nearest, most appetizing enemy only to be caught unawares and blasted/chopped apart by other Orks.

Also, I thought I should bring up another useful piece of technology the Orks could have looted; artillery. They certainly have various batteries today, but with the IoM's worlds abandoned (and subsequently looted by Orks), the posibilities are impressive:
1. Orks mount these pieces on their ships, and have exceptional short to mid-range firepower (depending on the size of the battery)
2. Orks use the artillery on the ground to blow massive gaps in the Tyranid lines. Some ammunition concepts:
-Zzap Beams: An Earth Shaker with its barrel lined with electric coils to create a tremendously powerful zzap gun.
-Shokk Rounds: The battery fires shells with condensed Shokk systems (perhaps with some grot pilots...) inside. As they approach the enemy, the Mek presses a trigger to activate the system, releasing a psychic blast that could temporarily disrupt a Synaptic link, or open a temporary hole into the warp (depending on the round, I suppose).

Shrouger wrote:

And Shrouger thinks having extra enemy space ships above can protect him on the ground.... You are both gravely mistaken.... Muahhaaahaaw *cough* HAHAHAw

I apologize if I was not clear. The crew/biomass stored on the destroyd ship might lead to a Tyranid defeat at a critical moment. Further, if the 'Nids could make more ships without a severe reduction to their biomass, they would already have done so. This mass-reaction would probably drain a signficant amount of resources with little gain; after a certain point, more Hive Ships are simply useless in a ground assault.
Also, this sort of psychic resonance would do far more than knock out a single hive Ship. It would probably take out or at least severely damage several; while the 'Nids are effecting repairs (which do require a certain amount of biomass that could be critical later), the Orks can hold off against the preliminary waves (the few genestealers the Orks do not detect among them, of course) with little difficulty.

No worries, and no apologies needed, I'm just joking around with ya... You can call me a slimy Tyranid Turd if you want, all is fair in war right?

The reason I think biomass is stored and not immediately transformed into something can be described by an ancient Taoist saying: (paraphrased of course)
If you carve a block of wood into a tool, then you will forever only have that one tool;
If you keep the block of wood, then you can always have the tool you need.

Paradoxical I know, but what Tao saying isn't? HAHa, I was talking about trying to keep things science fiction and now here I am dropping ancient Lao Tzu proverbs hahaha...

The point is though, if the biomass is still kept in liquid form then can potentially be anything the Hive Mind needs at a moments notice. Once it is formed into something though it will always be that one thing. (at least until it can be broken down again and recycled.)

Any ways, be careful with these weapons you Ork boys are thinking of. If they are able to take out massive amounts of hive ships in one shot, they could take you down too (Orky accidents do happen). Also, if all the Weirdboys in a sector sacrifice themselves to create this rift in space, you could potentially make a whole new Eye of Terror right in your back yard; because believe me, the Tyranids are coming for you on your home turf. (BTW: thanks for killing off your Weirdboys for us ) And how many times do you plan on doing this tactic? Just to take down a few Hive Ships and wound a few others would cost you all of your wierdboyz; and you want to talk to us about a waste of biomass at critical moments?

It won't cost us all our Weirdboyz. We just need enough to knock your fleet out temporarily, and then pummell you with our various weapons. Remember that this is a Waaagh! larger than any other the galaxy has seen by several orders of magnitude. We have Weirdboyz to spare, and killing off a few of them while knocking out a relatively important part of your fleet seems like an exchange in our favor. Further, that Tao proverb could work, but for hive ships to spawn similarly sized objects would probably take some time, so that the Ork fleet could still mount strikes against you.

As far as Ork tech backfiring, more often than not, it does work. Accidents do happen, of course, and the impact can be devastating, but these weapons would likely do signficantly more damage to the enemy than to us. After all, downing a Hierophant with a large Zapp battery is probably worth the ensuing heat burns any Orks near the smoking electrical coils might suffer.

why have to deal with a living race? when you can enslve their DNA? No up-risings, or worrying about traitors at all. You have all the benefis of a slave race with none of the pit falls....

I'm bowing out of this thread. It's turned into strawmanning on both sides of the argument, and I also realized that in the time I spent arguing in here, I could have painted a decent chunk of my Tyranid army.

nids would have to use some seriously powerfull powers to combat the wierdboys and with the ammount of orks in this fight the wierdboys could use stupidly powerful powers all the time also the nids dont have the firepower to combat all the ork spacehulks and other ships in space at range considering all these factors i think the orks would win !!!!

I'm bowing out of this thread. It's turned into strawmanning on both sides of the argument, and I also realized that in the time I spent arguing in here, I could have painted a decent chunk of my Tyranid army.

Sorry to see you go.

Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:nids would have to use some seriously powerfull powers to combat the wierdboys and with the ammount of orks in this fight the wierdboys could use stupidly powerful powers all the time also the nids dont have the firepower to combat all the ork spacehulks and other ships in space at range considering all these factors i think the orks would win !!!!

I don't know about space warfare, but weirdboys are removed in the before the invasion even starts. The shadow in the warp will cause the weirdboys to go insane or just keel over and die, a rare few will survive but their powers are greatly reduced in order to hold back the mental assualt.

The Orks could use looted psychic beacons to draw the Tyranids' attention, perhaps. While the Hive Mind focuses on these, the Orks coudl enact a number of strategies.

Well I still think there is some fun left in this thread... We can go back and fourth with tactics and battle plans but I don't think one side is ever going to convince the other side who the real winner will be. (you Ork Boyz will just have to find out the hard way )

I just like coming up with new monsters!

How about, a World Eater bug... NO! Not those Chaos guys! But an actual Tyranid bug, big enough to swallow whole worlds. All the hive ships from a few sectors of space meld together into a massive planet swallowing bug! It could also have giant tentacles able to grab and throw the planets it is not currently chewing on.

Ork fleet? NOM NOM NOM

Ork infested planet? NOMMY NOM NOM

Psyker_9er wrote:Well I still think there is some fun left in this thread... We can go back and fourth with tactics and battle plans but I don't think one side is ever going to convince the other side who the real winner will be. (you Ork Boyz will just have to find out the hard way )

I just like coming up with new monsters!

How about, a World Eater bug... NO! Not those Chaos guys! But an actual Tyranid bug, big enough to swallow whole worlds. All the hive ships from a few sectors of space meld together into a massive planet swallowing bug! It could also have giant tentacles able to grab and throw the planets it is not currently chewing on.

Ork fleet? NOM NOM NOM

Ork infested planet? NOMMY NOM NOM

Wouldn't be as efficient as the normal nid way of doing it.

The problem is that a single ship large enough to swallow a planet would likely have moons/asteroids drawn into its "hull" rather frequently. Further, unless it intends to turn its entire gullet into a reclamation pool (likely requiring a huge amount of biomass just to start), the Orks could become internal parasites (space slugs and mynocks, anyone? ).

But admittedly it would be cooooooool





But then again if the orks had all the reasources in the galaxy they would make stompas at the rate that they make kans at and they would make things bigger than gargants aswell and they would be sooooooooooooo coooooool

Meh. All codex's make their side out to be pretty hot stuff. Chaos is impossible to stop and has limitless daemons. The imperium loses multiple solar systems from its spreadsheets due to rounding errors and doesn't even feel the loss. One space marine chapter plus a sector fleet and a titan legion shattered a hive fleet on their own. Necrons are self repairing dudes who unmake you with all their guns and haven't even used their real weapons yet. The orks have a black and white guarantee that, united, all other factions combined would be overmatched by them. I mean, even the Tau and the Dark Eldar feel good about themselves finishing up a codex read. That's what they're there for, to make you feel jazzed about your team.

Chaos is a result of the more emotional of the sentient races' emotions.
Chaos has no 'limitless' daemons- chaos lives and breathes as long as it has souls to eat, and humans to define it.
When eldar and humans die out, bye-bye chaos!
Sorry, had to correct that. Minor as it was, it was bugging me.

Agrifex wrote:

Meh. All codex's make their side out to be pretty hot stuff. Chaos is impossible to stop and has limitless daemons. The imperium loses multiple solar systems from its spreadsheets due to rounding errors and doesn't even feel the loss. One space marine chapter plus a sector fleet and a titan legion shattered a hive fleet on their own. Necrons are self repairing dudes who unmake you with all their guns and haven't even used their real weapons yet. The orks have a black and white guarantee that, united, all other factions combined would be overmatched by them. I mean, even the Tau and the Dark Eldar feel good about themselves finishing up a codex read. That's what they're there for, to make you feel jazzed about your team.

Chaos is a result of the more emotional of the sentient races' emotions.
Chaos has no 'limitless' daemons- chaos lives and breathes as long as it has souls to eat, and humans to define it.
When eldar and humans die out, bye-bye chaos!
Sorry, had to correct that. Minor as it was, it was bugging me.

No problem. I know exactly what you mean.

yes if humanity dies out chaos will die it says in the book legion that if chaos has control humanity will self destruct and chaos will die but if humamity wins chaos will take ten-twenty thousand years to grow strong enoug. is it just me or is gw implying that the 41st milllenium is on the verge of the end of the universe. the orks are stronger than ever now acording to the codex

Im not speaking for all orks but... fighting crunchy bugs is a hell lot of fun, toss in some imperials...if i were a boss i would prefer to fight endlessly, orks fight to fight, not fight to win.