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Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Grand Prairie, Texas

Look at it this way; Every exterminatus applied, every man silenced to stop knowledge of the Grey knights, every single raid from a plague marine, every notion of heresy put into the Imperium population; is victory for "Evil" how ever you wish to draw the arbitrary and convoluted line.
   
Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Void__Dragon wrote:Also, is Ward really that bad about killing off Sisters of Battle? I recently read the Grey Knights, Blood Angels, and Space Marine codices in their entirety, and for some reason can only recall the Bloodtide incident.
I think that bit often gets blown out of proportions as well. GK's have no scruples about killing anyone - regardless of whether it's IG, SoB or other Marines - if they deem it necessary. It's part of their grimdark modus operandi. They are not paladin whiteknights big on chivalry and honour.

What gets me, though, is that it seems as if some of the SoB got corrupted, which violates the unique incident of Miriael Sabathiel. Unless that Bloodtide corruption was "just" insanity, but in that case the wording is somewhat poor/misleading.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Being corrupted and falling are not the same thing.

You can be corrupted and be unwilling.
Falling requires more of a conscious decision.
   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne




Noctis Labyrinthus

Lynata wrote:I think that bit often gets blown out of proportions as well. GK's have no scruples about killing anyone - regardless of whether it's IG, SoB or other Marines - if they deem it necessary. It's part of their grimdark modus operandi. They are not paladin whiteknights big on chivalry and honour.

What gets me, though, is that it seems as if some of the SoB got corrupted, which violates the unique incident of Miriael Sabathiel. Unless that Bloodtide corruption was "just" insanity, but in that case the wording is somewhat poor/misleading.
I know Grey Knights are not super nice paladin guise. Admittedly, the only thing that bothers me about the Bloodtide incident, is that it implies that the Grey Knights are not incorruptible. I don't care for Purifiers for a similar reason. Either they are incorruptible or they are not, there are not levels of incorruptibility.

Yeah, it is kind of vague. Actually, that may be what bothers me most about Ward's writing, so much of it is so blatantly vague it's annoying.
   
Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Kanluwen wrote:You can be corrupted and be unwilling.
Falling requires more of a conscious decision.
Can't agree there.

You may be unwilling when the corruption starts, but you end up "falling" by your own will. That's what corruption is all about: it twists your mind and perception of what you thought was the truth.

Void__Dragon wrote:Admittedly, the only thing that bothers me about the Bloodtide incident, is that it implies that the Grey Knights are not incorruptible. I don't care for Purifiers for a similar reason. Either they are incorruptible or they are not, there are not levels of incorruptibility.
Aye, I understand that this must seem like a very big change, and quite annoying for GK players. It could be seen not as a retcon but as an expansion of the previous fluff (basically "they are incorruptible - because they have knowledge of certain rituals") ... but as you said, it's annoyingly vague.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/24 18:21:01


 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Lynata wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:You can be corrupted and be unwilling.
Falling requires more of a conscious decision.
Can't agree there.

You may be unwilling when the corruption starts, but you end up "falling" by your own will. That's what corruption is all about: it twists your mind and perception of what you thought was the truth.

Huron wasn't corrupted. He fell, of his own will.

Corruption can certainly lead to falling, but the two are not mutually exclusive.
   
Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Kanluwen wrote:Huron wasn't corrupted. He fell, of his own will.
Says who? The pictures and descriptions I see of him certainly look corrupted.

How do you define "falling" anyways?

Kanluwen wrote:Corruption can certainly lead to falling, but the two are not mutually exclusive.
You can be corrupted without falling, but you cannot fall without being corrupted.
   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne




Noctis Labyrinthus

Lynata wrote:Aye, I understand that this must seem like a very big change, and quite annoying for GK players. It could be seen not as a retcon but as an expansion of the previous fluff (basically "they are incorruptible - because they have knowledge of certain rituals") ... but as you said, it's annoyingly vague.
It could be, only the codex itself is inconsistent on the matter, the seventh page credits their incorruptibility with their psychic presence, that is anathema to Chaos.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Lynata wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Huron wasn't corrupted. He fell, of his own will.
Says who? The pictures and descriptions I see of him certainly look corrupted.

How do you define "falling" anyways?

The corruption came AFTER he'd fallen and retreated into the Maelstrom.

Read up on your lore. Huron, before the Badab War, was one of the Imperium's staunchest enforcers. He was the warden of the Maelstrom and was responsible for putting down the pirates, xenos, etc all within the Maelstrom.
The "corruption" you're mentioning from looking at him came after he'd had half his body blown off by a meltagun shot at close range.


There's Huron, before being forcibly given reconstructive surgery. I'm going to assume your idea of "corruption" is the talon, huh?

Kanluwen wrote:Corruption can certainly lead to falling, but the two are not mutually exclusive.
You can be corrupted without falling, but you cannot fall without being corrupted.

...It's like you're parroting what I already said.
"You can be corrupted and be unwilling" is not really as farfetched as "You can be corrupted without falling". Most people exposed to "corruption" are exposed without willingly going to the corrupting source.

Huron was not corrupted, at all, before he proclaimed the areas under his protection his own little empire.
   
Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Kanluwen wrote:Read up on your lore. Huron, before the Badab War, was one of the Imperium's staunchest enforcers.
That's not how it sounds like on Lexicanum.

"Huron lacked the selfless dedication to humanity necessary in an Imperial commander. Huron's megalomania became apparent as he steadily distanced himself from the Imperium, hoarding planetary tithes for himself."

Now, I know that Lexicanum isn't exactly reliable, given that it treats licensed publications as being on the same level of canonicity as GW stuff, and as it is a community-driven project anyways, but it sounds pretty obvious in this case. If you have information that would negate the above quote, however, feel free to provide it.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm going to assume your idea of "corruption" is the talon, huh?
Nope, mainly I was referring to the description of his character/personality (and obviously the fact that he went rogue in the first place). The visual impression is but one part of it - that it apparently does not apply before his retreat, which I indeed did not know, does not render the other void, so please don't discard it.

Kanluwen wrote:"You can be corrupted and be unwilling" is not really as farfetched as "You can be corrupted without falling". Most people exposed to "corruption" are exposed without willingly going to the corrupting source.
Uh? I believe we're talking past each other here - I was challenging your statement about "falling" happening without previous corruption. A "conscious choice" leading to such a drastic change that someone turns from being one of the Imperium's most faithful to an unscrupulous servant of Chaos certainly cannot happen just like that, and I guarantee you that Miriael's fall did involve corruption. It just wouldn't make any sense otherwise.

Kanluwen wrote:Huron was not corrupted, at all, before he proclaimed the areas under his protection his own little empire.
Ahh. And why did he do that?
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

You don't need to be corrupted by Chaos to want to turn away from the Imperium to be your own little kingdom or join the Tau Collecti- er, Empire.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Lynata wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Read up on your lore. Huron, before the Badab War, was one of the Imperium's staunchest enforcers.
That's not how it sounds like on Lexicanum.

"Huron lacked the selfless dedication to humanity necessary in an Imperial commander. Huron's megalomania became apparent as he steadily distanced himself from the Imperium, hoarding planetary tithes for himself."

Now, I know that Lexicanum isn't exactly reliable, given that it treats licensed publications as being on the same level of canonicity as GW stuff, and as it is a community-driven project anyways, but it sounds pretty obvious in this case. If you have information that would negate the above quote, however, feel free to provide it.

Huron's "megalomania" was the result of the Imperium not giving him the resources to do the job he was assigned. Read the Badab War books from FW and you'll see what I'm talking about.


Kanluwen wrote:I'm going to assume your idea of "corruption" is the talon, huh?
Nope, mainly I was referring to the description of his character/personality (and obviously the fact that he went rogue in the first place). The visual impression is but one part of it - that it apparently does not apply before his retreat, which I indeed did not know, does not render the other void, so please don't discard it.

His character and personality was no different than that of any Inquisitor, Marine Commander, or Guard Commander.

The only difference is that when push came to shove, he decided to stop listening to the High Lords of Terra and set up shop on his own. He created the Ring of Steel, he turned the Badab Sector into a manufacturing and resource harvesting powerhouse.

Kanluwen wrote:"You can be corrupted and be unwilling" is not really as farfetched as "You can be corrupted without falling". Most people exposed to "corruption" are exposed without willingly going to the corrupting source.
Uh? I believe we're talking past each other here - I was challenging your statement about "falling" happening without previous corruption. A "conscious choice" leading to such a drastic change that someone turns from being one of the Imperium's most faithful to an unscrupulous servant of Chaos certainly cannot happen just like that, and I guarantee you that Miriael's fall did involve corruption. It just wouldn't make any sense otherwise.

Miriael's fall, while involving corruption, could also have gone the other way. She could have offed herself, gone to the Repentia, or any number of things.

Kanluwen wrote:Huron was not corrupted, at all, before he proclaimed the areas under his protection his own little empire.
Ahh. And why did he do that?

Because the Imperium would not give him the tools necessary to do the job he was given.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/24 19:48:45


 
   
Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Psienesis wrote:You don't need to be corrupted by Chaos to want to turn away from the Imperium to be your own little kingdom or join the Tau Collecti- er, Empire.
Agreed, but when you end up joining Chaos there's a strong indication it already had a hand in "arranging" things (see Horus Heresy), and given Huron's "reputation" he does not exactly appear to be too interested in the well-being of his subjects in the first place. And when Space Marines turn from hypno-indoctrinated loyalists into self-serving tyrants ... well, same road as the one where a faithful veteran SoB suddenly becomes a Champion of Slaanesh, imo.

Though the very meaning of "corruption" is a bit ambiguous by itself, given that - depending on one's personal interpretation - it can be limited to Chaos magicks or also extend to simple "ideas" inspiring doubt and heretical thoughts. In many cases throughout 40k, it's very difficult if not impossible to completely differentiate between the two (as Chaos likes to infiltrate a lot, see Vraks), but I am quite certain that Miriael Sabathiel did not fall of her own voluntary choice whilst in the captivity of the Emperor's Children.

Kanluwen wrote:Miriael's fall, while involving corruption, [...]
When you agree now that the incident concerning Miriael involved corruption, why are we even argueing?

Kanluwen wrote:[...] could also have gone the other way. She could have offed herself, gone to the Repentia, or any number of things.
Her captors only stopped when she was "turned". Normally Sisters of Battle don't allow themselves to get captured in the first place. Once in their hands I doubt there was anything she could do, and only a matter of time until she succumbed to whatever they did to her.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/24 19:57:05


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Bay Area

"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb."


   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

Probably not, specifically in the case of Sabathiel. I imagine it was something along the lines of "say these magic words, bind your soul to Slaanesh forever, and the pain will stop..." and she, at first, refused. However, the servants of the Prince of Pleasure are extremely adept at the infliction of pain as well... and everyone has a breaking point.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

And that's why I say you can be corrupted and be unwilling, but you have to make the choice to fall.
   
Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Psienesis wrote:Probably not, specifically in the case of Sabathiel. I imagine it was something along the lines of "say these magic words, bind your soul to Slaanesh forever, and the pain will stop..." and she, at first, refused. However, the servants of the Prince of Pleasure are extremely adept at the infliction of pain as well... and everyone has a breaking point.
Aye. I imagine she must've went half-mad, too. Probably still is. I guess she only had two options: go insane in a way that renders herself useless to Chaos, or break.

There's a couple creepy lines in her short story about singing daemon princes and healing. Could be a hint. That said, there's shameful little to no information about what really happened or became of her - but this only makes speculations all the more interesting.

Kanluwen wrote:And that's why I say you can be corrupted and be unwilling, but you have to make the choice to fall.
Ah, so that's the point of our contention. I maintain it isn't a choice when external powers are influencing you (regardless of whether by torture or daemonic whispers or a Nurgle plague or whatever it is that is weakening your resolve), that's why I said you cannot fall without corruption. Matter of interpretation, I guess?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/24 20:03:35


 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

You ALWAYS have a choice about falling, even with corruption. You CAN say no, even if it's a symbolic 'no' by killing yourself.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

While true, in an academic sense, human beings are, after all, only human. Generally speaking, their wills and minds will break long before their bodies are broken to the point that their life ends.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Kanluwen wrote:You ALWAYS have a choice about falling, even with corruption. You CAN say no, even if it's a symbolic 'no' by killing yourself.
But for that symbolic "no" you'd still have to be in possession of your wits and your mind would have to be in its original state. I'm just saying that, with corruption, this does not apply. One's mind has been warped and twisted into believing something else, one may even develop an entirely new personality - that's how Chaos works, and I believe that this takes the factor of "voluntariness" out of the decision.

Apart from that, I doubt that Miriael had a chance to kill herself. I'd expect a Sister to do so as soon as she can when facing imprisonment by the arch-enemy, and find it far more likely that she would have simply been constrained in a manner that would allow the Emperor's Children to "work on her" without obstructions. Not that we'd know what exactly happened there, but it would make sense.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

When the Night Lords captured the Huntress, they removed her arms and legs before the excruciation had even begun.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in rs
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





Holy Terra

Psienesis wrote:When the Night Lords captured the Huntress, they removed her arms and legs before the excruciation had even begun.


Man...

That was just harsh....

I think that they trained every Imperial Assassin after her to save one bullet or capsule for himself/ herself in the end.

For Emperor and Imperium!!!!
None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!!
Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever"
Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done"
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2

Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.


The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?

Ronin wrote:

"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."

 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Both she and the Night Lords do lots of unpleasent things.....

I thought she would kill herself - but the NL spent a lot ot time, planning and effort to capture her - I guess they took precautions

Even in her agonies - which apparently she endures the longest Talon has seen by a long way, its arguable given later events whether she breaks completely?

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

Hrm, maybe... but they get what they came for, though whether it's *exactly* what they thought it would be is... really not the Huntress' doing. After 17 days (yes, a record) she breaks and tells them everything they want to know, about the Temple, its defenses, its location, etc... which is, of course, how the NL find the video log of Curze's assassination.

And, yeah, this probably prompted the inclusion of a hidden compartment inside a false tooth into every Callidus augmentation package, with an insta-kill pill inside.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Er, no.

There's a mention that they removed the tooth.

And she really didn't actually 'give them what they wanted'. They wanted a training facility that the Callidus operated. They wanted a place where the Callidus' Master was secreted.

She gave them the location of a Callidus training facility...that had been abandoned for centuries. They didn't get what they wanted, they got a damaged and incomplete record that took a lot of work to get you a manner of seconds of video.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

Which The Exalted was more than happy with... it wasn't the original Hololith, to be sure, but it was more than sufficient for the Exalted's goals.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






england, leictershire

It was not the original recording but it was still a victory for the night lords.
   
Made in ca
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






I've seen Kan put through this argument before and I must say he is right. The SoBs are one of the best examples: only one has ever fallen but many have been corrupted. The terminology may vary but basically you may "fall" from a character flaw but you can also be corrupted by warp energy.

 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

Indeed.

"Warp Corruption" is more like... magic-cancer. You can, through absolutely no fault of your own, just get it. Sure, it sucks, but them's the breaks.

One chooses to "Fall"... no matter how coerced that fall may have been. Is it fair? No, but, then, no one promised that it would be.


It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in ca
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






Magic-Cancer sucks.

 
   
 
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