CSM Raptors

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**SwanCo**

So everyone kept telling me Raptors suck horribly and such, but i decided to try them out and fielded them last night for the first time against Tau and also against IG....they were very succesful and such and was wondering if there was any particular reason that raptors "arent good"

(i can see how they wouldnt be good against Marines and SoB and other heavily armored infantry, but over all i think they are a solid fast attack choice)

**jariksolo**

yeh but those points can be spent in other spots manly troops and heavy support

**SwanCo**

See the thing about that is they generally make up more hen their points worth of guys in kills easily and early in the game as opposed to marines who if their transport is destroyed it takes 1/5 of the game just to get close enough to the opponent and such...and for only 5 pts more per troop in comparison from what i've found in the game is the 5 raptors in the squad manage to make up about double their value in kills as long as their special wep is a flamer allowing them to assault...

**epil**

it depends on how you are going to use them imo. 5 prety much regualr guys jumping into a CC isent ood for their point cost. personaly, i like to have them go destory a land raider with their two meltas. i like them for tank bashing w/meltas

**SwanCo**

well after the results from last games i may buy some more...if thats the case (that they are good with meltas as well) then i'll have to try that out

I think that they are a relatively good unit though and dont get why they are hated on so much D:

**Iron_Chaos_Brute**

Reasons Raptors are meh:

1) They do as much damage as CSM in assault, but cost 5 points more. If you want dedicated assault, Berzerkers do it so much better, with more attacks, WS 5, and FCharge.

2) CSM don't need melta platforms out of FA, we have termicide/CSM/PM squads already.

3) CSM work best at close range, which means Rhinos for almost everything. If the Raptors are there, you can hide them behind Rhinos, but they're still fodder for anti-infantry fire. It's also a great way to make your opponent's target prioritization easier (kill the Rhino the Raptors are hiding behind!).

4) Points are tight in high-level CSM builds anyway-and if you're just doing melta platform, Termicide does it better and cheaper. If you need assault support, Zerks do it better and score.

While Raptors aren't awful, there are much better choices to fill their roles. If you and your competition run mid-level lists in general, though, Raptors can work.

**SwanCo**

well i guess that could explain it, i was running 1.5k point games yesterday...so that could have had an affect with why they did so awesomely, I gave 1 a flamer as a special wep and another ligghtning claws so i was able to jump to his guy, hit a buunch with the flamer, and then still assault with the squad andget 5 attacks with the aspiring champ and his lightning claws. for the points i t worked quite well

**Night Lords**

Raptors are great. However, it's important to give them 2 meltas so they can shoot well as well.

Raptors have 2 major advantages:

-Guaranteed largest melta range in the army. Any vehicle within an 18" radius of them is vulnerable.
-18" assault range. Rhinos are not going to give you that.

They can also cover hop, redeploy quickly, be held in reserve to protect your table edge, deepstrike and so on.

Cost wise theyre nearly interchangeable with CSM, as youre trading the rhino for jumppacks. However, you do not need a full 10 man squad to have 2 special weapons.

Zerkers are fine, but theyre more expensive, slower, no specials and rely on a rhino.

Terminators are fine if you just want to shoot, but otherwise they fill completely different roles.

**DarkHound**

Night Lords wrote:Raptors are great. However, it's important to give them 2 meltas so they can shoot well as well.

Raptors have 2 major advantages:

-Guaranteed largest melta range in the army. Any vehicle within an 18" radius of them is vulnerable.
-18" assault range. Rhinos are not going to give you that.

They can also cover hop, redeploy quickly, be held in reserve to protect your table edge, deepstrike and so on.

Cost wise theyre nearly interchangeable with CSM, as youre trading the rhino for jumppacks. However, you do not need a full 10 man squad to have 2 special weapons.

Zerkers are fine, but theyre more expensive, slower, no specials and rely on a rhino.

Terminators are fine if you just want to shoot, but otherwise they fill completely different roles.

QFT. I don't have anything to add to that.

**SwanCo**

awesome

i'll def keep them in, i'll just take off the flamer and one pistol and stick on meltas

**Nurglitch**

DarkHound wrote:
Night Lords wrote:Raptors are great. However, it's important to give them 2 meltas so they can shoot well as well.

Raptors have 2 major advantages:

-Guaranteed largest melta range in the army. Any vehicle within an 18" radius of them is vulnerable.
-18" assault range. Rhinos are not going to give you that.

They can also cover hop, redeploy quickly, be held in reserve to protect your table edge, deepstrike and so on.

Cost wise theyre nearly interchangeable with CSM, as youre trading the rhino for jumppacks. However, you do not need a full 10 man squad to have 2 special weapons.

Zerkers are fine, but theyre more expensive, slower, no specials and rely on a rhino.

Terminators are fine if you just want to shoot, but otherwise they fill completely different roles.
QFT. I don't have anything to add to that.

I'll second that QFT. I think that their ability to jump over screening units, difficult terrain, and intervening vehicles is sorely underestimated by many people.

Interesting note, they don't have to be expensive either. Aside from building them out of Assault Marines, you can get old-school turbine packs from Maximini (do I have the name right? I saw them in a really cool Pre-heresy Space Wolf modelling thread).

**darkkt**

Nurglitch wrote:
DarkHound wrote:
Night Lords wrote:Raptors are great. However, it's important to give them 2 meltas so they can shoot well as well.

-Guaranteed largest melta range in the army. Any vehicle within an 18" radius of them is vulnerable.

I dont think this can be overstated - not only for tank busting, but controlling the direction of tanks. If your opponent knows they are there, they do everything to move around them. Ive had success taking out IG Banewolves which my chosen/termies dont want to go near.

With 10 wounds they are quite survivable, and if you are really cautious and they survive the game - nothing contests objectives at the last minute better in the CSM army.

**1-UP**

They've got possibilities (Sort of like the Chaos Dread). I have a set 1/2 painted myself that I keep picking away at. The terrain boards my group have come up with almost universally have rivers and difficult/dangerous terrain all over and the Jump Pack ability is proving to be ridiculously powerful.

**Noisy_Marine**

For those points you could buy squads of CSM in rhinos. Slower, but more resilient AND scoring units.

**Nurglitch**

Resilience is nice, but being able to kill people before they put your resilience to the test kind of levels the playing field.

**JohnHwangDD**

Raptors are fine. 5-6 models with 2 Meltas and LCs or PF, and they'll get things done.

**Culler**

Are they worth giving a MoK to? Or not unless it's a big unit? I kinda like the concept of 4 attacks each on the charge but not sure if it's worth it.

**SwanCo**

Culler wrote:Are they worth giving a MoK to? Or not unless it's a big unit? I kinda like the concept of 4 attacks each on the charge but not sure if it's worth it.

sounds like a good concept, but one of the reasons i like them is because they are not much more xpensive then basic marines, and if you stick that on them i think they might end up having too high a point cost and lose you points instead of make up for the cost

**TheTrueProtoman**

I do enjoy raptors and its nice to just move a group from cover to cover then rely on a tin box that can very easily die before it reaches its target.

**Sanctjud**

I've run a 10 man squad with IoCG, 2 Metlas, and claw champ to run around with 2 princes as a mob squad, but it's been sort of underwhelming.
I switched to 20 lesser daemons and have been more impressed.
Maybe it's just a taste issue, but the Spiky Assault Marines just don't do it for me as I would rather get CSM in a rhino.

/shrug.

For the lulz in my Crap Legion I've used 5 raptors with 2 plasma guns...the did decently, but really needs a rhino screen to shelter behind at the very least.

**Owain**

TheTrueProtoman wrote:I do enjoy raptors and its nice to just move a group from cover to cover then rely on a tin box that can very easily die before it reaches its target.

Your standard Marines hide in METAL BAWKSES. The COWARDS! The FEEEWLZ!!!!

But seriously, that cover-hopping can really come in handy, allowing you to benefit on terrain-heavy boards where a Rhino would be bogged down.

**SilverMK2**

I like running a couple of 5 man squads with 2 meltas each to fly around the board, shooting tanks in the side and rear armour, and generally drawing enemy troops out of place.

**SwanCo**

welll...while on the subject of raptors and such i tried a paint scheme on them that matches my armies colors rather then following the simple "paint it metallic" scheme used on most raptors...let me take a pic real quick and tell me if its acceptable please? O.o

Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/77397-Chos%20Raptor.html heres the link to the pic

**Grumzimus**

I've used 5+ man units with MoN and meltas before and they were pretty good if there's lots of cover.

I think if there was still the option for giving them tank hunters they would be far more useable on the field. but they are handy for floating around, though you are far better with a unit of 5 csm + Rhino but for only 10 points more (basic).