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Look I never really understand why people like them so much. Sure its easier to kill a tank, but its nothing a meltabomb wont do. For a SM or nob its str 8 which will wound most things on a 2+ and probably instant death as well. But the thing that really annoys me is you have to strike at initiative 1 AND its not a power weapon so you still get to take armour saves. Also you only get 1+ atk with two of 'em. So I ask you again, why do people like them?

They help prevent a mediocre assault unit from getting tied up for 3 turns.


I thought they were power weapons...

vodo40k wrote:Look I never really understand why people like them so much. Sure its easier to kill a tank, but its nothing a meltabomb wont do. For a SM or nob its str 8 which will wound most things on a 2+ and probably instant death as well. But the thing that really annoys me is you have to strike at initiative 1 AND its not a power weapon so you still get to take armour saves. Also you only get 1+ atk with two of 'em. So I ask you again, why do people like them?

Meltabombs don't get 2 Attacks on the charge. meltabombs can't be used against Wraithlords or other Infantry. Power Fists chew through Infantry, wounding on 2's 99% of the time and negating armour. And a Power Fist is also a Power Weapon. Seriously, get your facts straight. For someone with "8000" points of Marines, how can you not know this?

Also, this isn't a rules question.

Powerfist/claws ignore armour just like power weapons. Also Meltabombs are nice but you only get one attack. Since most people that can field fist have more than one attack you get more chances to hit.

Melta bombs can't be used agaisnt MC's where the fist can.

Moving this to tactics, although it would be good in 40K discussion as well.

vodo40k wrote: its not a power weapon so you still get to take armour saves.

I'm with Gwar... how does someone with hundreds of posts here who claims to have almost 12000 points of 40k armies get something so basic wrong? Have your 3+ marines never run into a PK nob before?
Powerklaw/fists are amazing.

Power fists are good since they are power weapons they do ignore armour saves, if you charge you can usually instant kill 2 enemies in 1 assault phase. Take the new tyranid warriors in one turn you can take 60 points of warriors away since it will cause instant death.

Fist/Claw:
Insurance against MC, IC, and walkers, when range fails you...and it will.

I makes the said above think twice before wading into combat.
Else, there is also the anti-tank aspect,hitting with more than just 1 attack at back armor is decent when NEEDED, but it's not something to bank on always.

Dude you're a month early for April Fools. Good one though, power fists not ignoring armor, made me laugh

Sorry guys, i could have sworn power fists were not power weapons, my bad. Also yes i do have 8000 points of marines but im more of a collector than a player.

PS i re read that section of the rules, must have missed that bit somehow (btw i only ever tend to play friendly home games)

PF/PK are a trade-off, for sure, but for the reasons stated, they are pretty damn useful which why the typically cost 25 points. With orks, our Initiative sucks anyway, so having that PK wrecking ball at the end of the turn is fairly useful. Plus, when you add in stuff like boardin' planks there are ways to get around the initiative aspect. The other part is delivering instant-death to non-eternal warrior special characters T4 or less. That's generally worth the price of admission.

Actually, why I include Power Fists?
So that I can play a Sisters of Battle opponent and tell him the next day:
"I fisted your Canonesse last night."

;D

Powerfists will hit either 67% of the time or 50%. If S8 hey'll wound 83% of the time against T6-, 67% of the time against T7, 50% vs T8, 33% vs T9, and 16% vs T10 or glancing on AV14.

Nobs have an advantage of having S9 on the charge, so they can penetrate a Land Raider, since they have A3(4) on the charge. A Space Marine Veteran Sergeant has A2(3) on the charge and S8, and both ignore armour.

Speaking of, I was wondering about a Space Marine Sergeant/Wolf Guard/Aspiring Champion with a Powerfist vs a Melta Bomb on a Land Raider, Dreadnought, and a Rhino.

Powerfist
3 Attacks hitting on 1+/4+/6, glancing on 6/4/2, penetrating on 0/5+/3+.

Against a Land Raider
Stationary (hitting on 1+): Glancing: 0.50
Combat Speed (hitting on 4+): Glancing: 0.25
Cruising Speed (hitting on 6): Glancing: 0.08

Against a Dreadnought (hitting on 4+)
Glancing: 0.25
Penetrating: 0.50

Against a Rhino
Stationary (hitting on 1+): Glancing: 0.48, Penetrating: 2.01
Combat Speed (hitting on 4+): Glancing: 0.24, Penetrating: 1.01
Cruising Speed (hitting on 6): Glancing: 0.08, Penetrating: 0.34

Melta Bomb
1 Attack hitting on 1+/4+/6, glancing on 6/4/2, penetrating on 7+/5+/3+.

Against a Land Raider
Stationary (hitting on 1+): Glancing: 0.14, Penetrating: 0.59
Combat Speed (hitting on 4+): Glancing: 0.07, Penetrating: 0.30
Cruising Speed (hitting on 6): Glancing: 0.02, Penetrating: 0.10

Against a Dreadnought (hitting on 6)
Glancing: 0.01
Penetrating: 0.14

Against a Rhino
Stationary (hitting on 1+): Glancing: 0.03, Penetrating: 0.97
Combat Speed (hitting on 4+): Glancing: 0.02, Penetrating: 0.49
Cruising Speed (hitting on 6): Glancing: 0.01, Penetrating: 0.16

It seems that a Melta Bomb is better against a Land Raider, Power Fists better against Dreadnoughts and Rhinos. But are they better against Dreadnoughts and Rhinos than Krak Grenades? Supposing 9 Krak Grenades to supplement the Melta Bomb against non-Land Raider targets.

Against a Dreadnought (hitting on 4+)
Glancing: 0.75

Against a Rhino
Stationary (hitting on 1+): Glancing: 1.44, Penetrating: 4.50
Combat Speed (hitting on 4+): Glancing: 0.72, Penetrating: 2.25
Cruising Speed (hitting on 6): Glancing: 0.24, Penetrating: 0.75

It seems that Powerfist is only really necessary if you're planning on fighting with Dreadnoughts. In terms of fighting Terminators, Tactical Space Marines, Orks, and Guardsmen:

Powerfist: 0.83 (TD), 1.25 (TSM), 1.25 (ORK), 1.25 (IG)
Power Weapon: 0.67 (TD), 1.00 (TSM), 1.00 (TSM), 1.33 (IG)

It looks like the Powerfist comes out ahead unless the enemy is T3-, in which case the extra attack from the Power Weapon (assuming paired with t a Bolt Pistol or something), makes up for it.

In terms of weighted expected value, however, weighing the potential in with the expected value (and dividing by two to make the number resemble an expected value):

Powerfist (A3): 1.92 (TD), 2.13 (TSM), 2.13 (ORK), 2.13 (IG)
Power Weapon (A4): 2.34 (TD), 2.50 (TSM), 2.50 (ORK), 2.67 (IG)

Of course as the T goes up, so does the weighted expected value of the Powerfist. Take a Daemon Prince (T5), a Carnifex (T6), a Talos (T7) and a Wraithlord (T8).

Powerfist (A3): 1.92 (DP), 2.33 (TMC), 2.00 (DET), 1.88 (EWL)
Powerweapon (A4): 2.22 (DP), 2.22 (TMC), 2.17 (DET), 0.00 (EWL)

The last set of weighted expected values require some explanation, which is fairly easy: Daemon Princes have Iv5+, while Carnifexes have WS3. Both reward having more attacks. Of course, against T8 the Power Weapon falls of a cliff.

So, to reiterate the conclusions: Melta Bombs can be expected to perform better against Land Raiders but Power Fists will do better when you get lucky thanks to having more attacks (I didn't show the weighted expected value for the comparison, but basically add 1.00 to the Power Fist values and you have it because you add the total potential number of attacks (and thus wounds or damage rolls) and divide by 2). Likewise Power Fists can be expected to do better against targets that fight back, but a Power Weapon will do betterwhen you get lucky. Power Fists are better for dismounting units from their transports.

You can only make a single melta bomb attack in an assault phase, whereas you can make multiple powerfist attacks. You should probably fix your math to reflect this.

Broken Loose wrote:You can only make a single melta bomb attack in an assault phase, whereas you can make multiple powerfist attacks. You should probably fix your math to reflect this.

Indeed, indeed he should.

Also unless the Dred is Immoble (or maybe stunned not sure about that one) you need a 6 to use a Melta Bomb on the Dred.

Skarboy wrote:With orks, our Initiative sucks anyway, so having that PK wrecking ball at the end of the turn is fairly useful.

My orks cheerfully charge at my mate's Carnifex - most other armies run away from the thing. And ofc, my Warboss is my best anti-tank unit... He's got a few Land Raider kills by now.

Fists/Klaws are definitely worth taking at least in a few of your squads. ;-)

Powerfists are probably the best melee weapon in the game. Nothing is more satisfying than crunching a nob or 2 with a sarge and reducing an enemies leadership to just garbage. kantor and a sternguard squad swept a squad of warriors after crunching 3 of them (-9 to ld bwah hahaha)

Warriors are Synapse, and therefore Fearless? So I suppose they'd take 9 saves, given that you didn't take any wounds.

Broken Loose:

All of the expected values take into account the number of attacks, though I do need to re-label the number of attacks that the Melta Bomb on a Vet.Sergeant to reflect the actual number used, and to re-jig the Dreadnought to be hit on 6, as jbunny points out.

FP/PW/PK
Meta-Gaming Thoughts on their usage.
For a Takes on all comers army it depends on your tast

Vs. a specific list vs. a specific opponent, depends on who you are playing.
SM vs.
-Orks, Guard: Power Weapons, you will go 1st in most situations
-Mechanized, Nids: you might as well take the PF you are going to go off last so go with the power, and most transports can not stand up to you.
Everything else YMMV

Guard vs.
-Orks Power Weapons, you will go 1st in most situations
-Everything else: You are going last so you might as well go with Power Fist

Personally, pk'pf is totally worth striking at I1.
Usually you can put the fist in a squad containing atleast 10 wounds, so it will definately be able to strike.

It's wayyy more killy than a power weapon

Well, the first time i realized my powerfist was far worth the points was when my Khorne Bezerker skull champion with powerfist killed 2 grey knight terminators by himself.

I think it really depends on what units a powerfist is placed in. Placing a powerfist in every unit is not a bad idea, or a waste of points imo. The solid fact that one of your models is going to dish out some hurt every time he gest into CC is enough to convince me. And the benefit of insurance vs high toughness is invaluable. Having a change to wound that T8 wraithlord or the mawlock that just appeared right next to you is worth the points.

Many space marine players, don't take power fists, the argument being the tactical squad is a shooty squad, and if it wins combat thanks to it's Pfist, it cant run away with 'combat tactics' and shoot you next turn....however, if your army is 'stubborn' or can't use combat-tactics because they replaced that rule with something else, the fist becomes more worth-while. Also, some of the 'alternative' space marine chapters (Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels) have other reasons to need a fist, Space Wolves for example, have counter attack, and with a wolf-guard with a powerfist in the squad, assaulting it becomes a dangerous proposition... Assault-Squads should have at least a fist, if not a TH, on the sarge, because their JOB is to go into combat and win.

For Orks the PK is mandatory, with Furious Charge that thing is S9, and it is one of the more reliable anti-tank weapons in the Ork army. Of course, now that DEFFROLLAZ work on tanks, you'll start seeing them too, but the Klaw is still a good bet, and ork boyz have to win combat, because being fearless with a 6+ save, if you lose combat your boyz will vaporize, so anything to help ork boyz win combat is mandatory.

For Eldar/IG, and really anyone at S3, the power fist is less useful, but it is still a power weapon, so it's still good for something, it's reeeeealy unappealing on Eldar though, thanks to the almost army-wide I5, the fist wastes that (so no, your striking scorpions do NOT need a scorpion claw).

Well anyway im not one to "mathhammer" but i defiantly can see the advantages of a powerfist after my little blunder earlier......

starbomber109 wrote:For Eldar/IG, and really anyone at S3, the power fist is less useful, but it is still a power weapon, so it's still good for something, it's reeeeealy unappealing on Eldar though, thanks to the almost army-wide I5, the fist wastes that (so no, your striking scorpions do NOT need a scorpion claw).

If you like allowing SM units their annoying 3+ save, sure, it really isn't that necessary.

Quick note though, as I disagree with your basic premise.

Ork PK: 25 points, S9, 4 attacks, weakish transports (esp. against Eldar, land of the B. lance, mobility, and S6 weapon spam), one WAAAGH! per game.

Scorpion PK: 15 points, S6, 4 attacks, option of infiltrating unit, or sticking them in a comfy outflanking tank.

The Scorpion PK is worth taking, make no mistake about that. A biting blade is simply no alternative to a PK, as it serves a different purpose, and one that can supplement the weaknesses of the PK by providing an alternative weapon. Chainsabers are just meh...

It's a no brainer for ork squad leaders- it's the only close combat weapon we have that ignores armour saves (outside of a wierdboy on the right roll), and our initiative is so low that the best a Nob is doing usually is swinging simultaneously anyway. Plus, Furious Charge puts it up to S9, giving a (small) chance at doing something to AV 14, the other option (Big Choppa) can only glance AV13. And I should also point out, Orks don't get meltabombs.

Marine players often don't take them these days, but for Orks, they're the bread and butter.

I play space wolves and orks and thus have a serious power-fist fetish.

Back on BnC in the glory days (not really) of 3rd ed my list building advice largely amounted to

"needs more powerfists"

My own 3rd ed wolf army had an average of 8 of them at 1500pts (plus a DCCW and a frostblade) and my current 1750 ork force never leaves home without at least 7 of them and more usually 8 or 9.

They are great weapons.

Consider this, a model equipped with a powerfist (supposing a base str of 4) can fight ANY unit in the game.
Dreadnoughts, T8 beasties, av14 ANYTHING.

You find me another upgrade that can do that and what's more lets you do that in combat allowing you to escape dreads/T8 beasties. Sure your odds aren't alwasy amazing but a fighting chance is better than nothing.

Consider also that they ignore FnP, WBB and armour, wound the vast majority of opponent's on a 2+ (anything t6 or less) and insta-kill the vast majority of opponent's. P-fists are scary, they take away protection your opponent was counting on and often that protection cost him a lot of pts.

Math wise the PK Nob will often kill as many or more of the enemy as the rest of his squad of boyz if the enemy has decent armour/FnP. 25pts to more than double your killing power? Yes please. Admittedly against anything with a 5+ or less armour save they seem like the height of overkill but how many games will you play against 3+ save opponents? It will always make its pts back against those opponents (provided you make it into combat).

CC units that can get them take them. That's the rule. Now if your unit has no place being in cc in the first place (devvy squad, tac squads using combat tactics to keep shooting, IG squads of all stripes except the big blobs) then adding 25pts worth of kickass isn't going to turn a losing combat into a winning one. But if you know you're going to get into cc either by design (Grey Hunter packs, any ork unit with the capacity to take the klaw, striking scorpions) or because the role of the unit ensures that the enemy will probably try and fight them in cc (plague marine squads used for taking objectives) then your p-fist will be worth its weight in gold.

As for power weapons, pfft! What of them! Unless you've got an initiative of 5 or higher or a base str of about 6 they're inferior in pretty much every way. That extra attack is more than negated by the extra chance of wounding with the p-fist (unless you're asburdly lucky) and they don't grant the armour busting bonus, the instant killing bonus or the capacity to fight T8.

They're my favourite weapons. You may have noticed.

Of course, back in 3rd, they were cheaper and granted you a bonus attack, which maybe has skewed your view just a tiny bit

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:Admittedly against anything with a 5+ or less armour save they seem like the height of overkill but how many games will you play against 3+ save opponents?

What is this Overkill you speak of?